Not easy to justify the purchase?

[SamTexas]

Several have posted about ebikes being the best value transport, ...

Not me.

Why bother with the cost comparison between a small, reliable, used ICE scooter and a car? The scooter wins hand down and by a large margin.

The more interesting comparison is between the above scooter and an ebike. The scooter beats the ebike too.

Bottom line: If COST IS THE DETERMINING FACTOR, nothing beats a small, used and reliable scooter. That's practically any Honda, Suzuki or Yamaha with a 100 to 250cc 4-cycle engine.

[cbr shadow]

Several have posted about ebikes being the best value transport, but as I'm building mine I'm starting to think it's not! Unless of course it completely replaces a car (not really possible in the Chicago area due to winters).

I'm probably forgetting a few things, but that's just the original purchase cost which is $2655. This doesn't count any of my time researching the site, installing, etc.. It's fun for me but I'm just saying it's not like I just went out and bought it. Point is that even if nothing fails on it I have to save 664 gallons of gas before the bike pays for itself (assuming electricity is 'free'), which in my car getting 31mpg avg means that I have to take the etrike 20,577 miles before it pays for itself in gas savings over the car.
This doesn't factor in that any miles on the bike saves the car from being driven/worn of course.

Your points are all valid. There are different reasons for every ebike build. Personally, I would never consider an ebike as a replacement for a car. In fact I rarely use my bike on the roadway unless I'm going to or from the forest preserves. But a lot of people consider an ebike as a great replacement for a car. And they are also getting the exercise as well. Being that we ar both located in the Chicago land area I can't imagin ever considering riding a bike in our winters.

To your point even my $550 cycle I had to add $150 in title and plate plus $280 for good insurance. So if I just consider the cost of the bike at $550 I would have to ride 4262 mile before breaking even. But during that mileage I burned about 61 gals of gas or $244 again. So I guess you could add on another 2000+ miles I'd have to ride.

Bottom line is; if your only reason for having an ebike, scooter or cycle is to save money it can be difficult for some to justify the expense. But most of us also consider other things like the exercise and even just the enjoyment of the ride.

Bob

Bob, do your figures above factor in that you're replacing a car for those rides? Meaning, if you're getting 25mpg in your car and say 75mpg on your motorcycle, you're gaining 50mpg over the car, not 75mpg total.
After looking at your numbers I realized that your bike was ultra inexpensive, so that's why the miles to make up for the cost is so low!

[dumbass]

Actually, my calculatios was a quicky and not at all acurate. To be more acurate it should be based on the car @ 31mpg and the cycle @ 70mpg. The car would cost $129 per 1000 miles and the bike $57. A gain of $72 per 1000 miles driven. Based on $550 for the cycle it would take 7639 miles to pay it off. But again there are many other things to consider. For example; wear and tear on the car will lower resale value but on the bike I will likelymake a profit on it's eventual resale (even with 10,000 miles on it).

Bob

[MountainSufi]

If your're really worried about saving $, get a nice light, non-motorized road bike. You can ride it on bike paths that don't allow e-bikes, so you'll need it even with an ebike. It will pay for itself.

But life isn't all about $. Riding an ebike will set an example, and in non-direct ways help lower the cost of ebikes for EVERYONE. It's what should be done.

"Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race."
-- H.G. Wells

[nechaus]

I think you need a higher powered ebike...
Why not buy a crappy scooter and put a beast of a hub motor in it, 5kw continuous run 20kw on it

get yourself some serious charging equipment and bms.. fast charge in 20 mins.. mix it with solar and bring your cost down even more.
Or you could kill your brain cells at the gas station

My younger brother just got himself a nissan z370 or some crap.. its like 237 kw or something...
Secretly im building an ebike that will hopefully kick his ass up to 100 kmh Might need dual hpms
He was real happy about the power of the car until i said i want a 50kw ebike

[REdiculous]

237kw sure sounds like a lot, but if it's 30% efficient then you'd only get about 71kw to the ground....

...a 50kw ebike should slaughter that.

[veloman]

Trivial bit of data but in NYC electricity costs about $0.29 cents per kWh. Not going into all the math but works out to $0.02 cents per mile for relatively mild 30A eBike. Chicago's probably not quite that high electrical product/delivery but I wouldn't be surprised if $0.20-25 cents/kWh? Most places safe to count on $0.01 cent/mile. Not a lot by gasoline comparison but when you ride electric 200-250 miles per month, you do notice it on the power bill.

I rode my GL1100 in Chicago for the mild winter '97-98. One 4F night was just about my "give up" point. Replacing a car is hard and so is replacing public transit in some cases. Only you know what you like and how your budget adds up...

That's seems really expensive, when my car at 35mpg and $2 gas a while ago cost 6 cents per mile. An ebike should be wayyy cheap than 1/3rd the cost per mile of a car, even when gas was cheap.

At 20watt hour/mile it should be something like:
400watt/hr / .8 charger efficiency = 1/2 kwh for 20 miles. at 30 cents/kwh, that's 15cents/20mile or 1.33 cents per mile. But if you ride fast, 2 cents per mile could happen. The thing is, everywhere I've lived power is around 10-11 cents/kwh. So it's 1/3rd that cost.

[Nehmo]

remember a month or so ago when a biker hit a man and killed him in San Francisco. There were many hundreds of comments from people who hated people on bicycles having nothing to do with this incident at all.

First, please give us lazy readers a link (or at least some details to search for) to your story.

This is on a subject I intend to cover, that of most drivers disliking - correction, hating - bikes. The drivers perceive bikes as impediments to their object of getting to where they are going. They can't drive through a bike. They can't drive through a car either, but cars are acceptable because they are in a car. Furthermore, bikes are vulnerable, and it's a natural tendency to prey on the weak.

I offer a few stories in support.

• A few days ago, someone threw and hit me in the thigh with a filled water bottle on 10th ST N of Central in Kansas City, Kansas. I was way over on the right of a wide road.
• A few months ago, also in KC, KS, someone shot and hit my backpack with what I think was an air gun (an older 2-color car with a long triangle painted on the site). There were two shots, and a bystander witnessed them (he thought my tires had blown).
• Once, while I was riding on the extreme right of a wide street with no traffic and no parked cars, a car going in the opposite direction veered way over from their straight path to my side of the road, missing me by a couple of feet (almost a meter) while going by. This was a juvenile prank to scare me.
  I should note here that I don't have any personal enemies that would do these thing. However, this city, the Kansas City metro, is very bike unfriendly.
• I've been "pulled over" while on an ebike twice in the past 1.6 years for nothing. Once, totally for nothing, and once supposedly for not having enough lights (not true). The cops let me go after a name check, but the stop wasn't merited. If you consider miles traveled, this is a very high rate of harassment contrasted with driving a car.

In a civilized part of the world, like Boulder, Colorado, US or Amsterdam, The Netherlands, bikes are not so hated as here. But as dkw12002 pointed out, the typical American comment on a bike story shows the general attitude is against.

[John in CR]

Nehmo,

You need a much faster ebike, so you cross paths with far fewer cars, and the ones you do, look at you in amazement. Plus there's the added bonus of catching one after doing something stupid like that. If someone pulled a stunt like those with me, they will receive damage from the chain I use to lock my bike and if they're lucky the damage will be only to the car. Luckily I haven't run across such idiots here in about 20k miles. The most I've gotten is a hoot and holler from a car full of teenagers trying to startle me, to which I just respond with an EV grin and blast away leaving them in the dust.

I take it back, you should move some place nicer AND get a much faster ebike.


On topic, I get right at a penny per mile of electric consumption on my crazy power ebike, and my lower power ebikes get about the same, because cruising speeds are similar. The price of gas here is about $5.50/gal. My ebikes save a couple thousand real dollars a year, but that's just the raw dollars. The time they save me is worth drastically more than that, and the convenience and fun are priceless. While the purchase of a 2 wheel gasser is hard to justify, an ebike is easy.

Before anyone starts trying to pick it apart bringing up battery costs etc, the only valid comparison in my case is on variable costs alone, gas vs electricity. I'm not amortizing the cost of my car, or insurance, registration, inspection, repairs, etc. Those are all sunk costs. On the other side, because I got deals and DIY'd my batteries, none of which are totally worn out, my batteries are worth locally nearly what I have invested in them. That's because lithium batts simply aren't available here. Plus I could easily sell my ebikes at a profit, including recovery of the cost of failures or those still in the project queue. That means there's nothing to amortize. It's all a moot point anyway. Ebiking and ebuilding is my hobby, and it's the cheapest hobby I've ever had before considering what I save on gas, so there's real $ savings there too, which is added to my real dollar savings electricity vs gas.

John

[Ykick]

That's seems really expensive, when my car at 35mpg and $2 gas a while ago cost 6 cents per mile. An ebike should be wayyy cheap than 1/3rd the cost per mile of a car, even when gas was cheap.

At 20watt hour/mile it should be something like:
400watt/hr / .8 charger efficiency = 1/2 kwh for 20 miles. at 30 cents/kwh, that's 15cents/20mile or 1.33 cents per mile. But if you ride fast, 2 cents per mile could happen. The thing is, everywhere I've lived power is around 10-11 cents/kwh. So it's 1/3rd that cost.

Can't trust me, huh? I wanted to save myself the trouble but here goes:

My last ConEd bill is/was $58.96 for 184 kWh. So my post was incorrect - it's actually 32 cents per kWh. Of course, they hide it using Supply charges, Delivery Charges, Surcharges, SBC/RPS charges, sales tax, etc. Would you like to see the bill? Total electricity charges = $58.96, Electricity used = 184 kWh

My usual commute is almost exactly 8 miles round trip. My batteries need roughly 333Wh from the charger after a typical commute. My charger's connected to a Kill-A-Watt meter and measures almost exactly 500Wh per charge cycle. Basically using .5kWh from the AC outlet to power myself for 8 miles. 1/2 of a 32 cent kWh = 16 cents. 16 divide by 8 = 2 cents/mile.

Just because you may not have experienced insane electricity prices doesn't mean it's not true...

[dumbass]

That's seems really expensive, when my car at 35mpg and $2 gas a while ago cost 6 cents per mile. An ebike should be wayyy cheap than 1/3rd the cost per mile of a car, even when gas was cheap.

At 20watt hour/mile it should be something like:
400watt/hr / .8 charger efficiency = 1/2 kwh for 20 miles. at 30 cents/kwh, that's 15cents/20mile or 1.33 cents per mile. But if you ride fast, 2 cents per mile could happen. The thing is, everywhere I've lived power is around 10-11 cents/kwh. So it's 1/3rd that cost.

I'm betting your estimate of 10-11 cents /kw is for the power only and does not include the delivery charge, taxes and so on. I live in the Chicago burbs and the cost of the power is less then the actual total cost billed per kw.

Bob

[nechaus]

You know what

Even if electricity cost more than an ICE
Id still use an EV..

Id just come up with a cheap way of charging.. for e.g. 1kw of solar in the yard.
even 500 watts of panels id have my bike charged in 3/4 hours of good sunlight

I cant justify people spending so much money on car services..

my gf paying alot for her to use her car, about $50 week in petrol
Car service every 6 months
Tyre replacement every what 30k or 60k km?
Replacing parts in the car that i hate, oil fuel filters, different toxic fluids..
Get to breath in fumes
Get to spill petrol when you fill it up and breath in more fumes..
Car cleaning once a month $50
Licence
Rego
Insurance
$30000 loan for new car that loses about 10k when it gets driven out of the car yard.


I personally would just rather my Magic pie ebike than drive.
I also get to do some exercise when i travel,


Im saving money, im staying fit, im having fun, going to live longer than a ICE user + its a great hobby..

In my eyes i can justify the many purchases

[StudEbiker]

SamTexas, have you done a cost analysis somewhere that shows an ICE scooter to be cheaper to use as transportation than an e-bike? I find your assertion very hard to believe and I am wondering how you came about your opinion.

[SamTexas]

SamTexas, have you done a cost analysis somewhere that shows an ICE scooter to be cheaper to use as transportation than an e-bike? I find your assertion very hard to believe and I am wondering how you came about your opinion.

SE: It's not an opinion. It's actual real life total operating cost of my 1988 Suzuki GN250 motorcycle. When comparing it with the ebike, I made one assumption: The wear and tear of the ebike battery is 10cents/mile. If that assumption is reasonable for you then I can show you the rest of the data. If not, it's pointless.

[veloman]

SamTexas, have you done a cost analysis somewhere that shows an ICE scooter to be cheaper to use as transportation than an e-bike? I find your assertion very hard to believe and I am wondering how you came about your opinion.

SE: It's not an opinion. It's actual real life total operating cost of my 1988 Suzuki GN250 motorcycle. When comparing it with the ebike, I made one assumption: The wear and tear of the ebike battery is 10cents/mile. If that assumption is reasonable for you then I can show you the rest of the data. If not, it's pointless.

At 10cents/mile, that would mean a $400 battery is useless after 4000 miles? I think most of us (using lifepo4) get much better longevity than that. I have a no-name lifepo4 that has 3500/miles on it and still has full (or near full) capacity and performance.

[veloman]

That's seems really expensive, when my car at 35mpg and $2 gas a while ago cost 6 cents per mile. An ebike should be wayyy cheap than 1/3rd the cost per mile of a car, even when gas was cheap.

At 20watt hour/mile it should be something like:
400watt/hr / .8 charger efficiency = 1/2 kwh for 20 miles. at 30 cents/kwh, that's 15cents/20mile or 1.33 cents per mile. But if you ride fast, 2 cents per mile could happen. The thing is, everywhere I've lived power is around 10-11 cents/kwh. So it's 1/3rd that cost.

Can't trust me, huh? I wanted to save myself the trouble but here goes:

My last ConEd bill is/was $58.96 for 184 kWh. So my post was incorrect - it's actually 32 cents per kWh. Of course, they hide it using Supply charges, Delivery Charges, Surcharges, SBC/RPS charges, sales tax, etc. Would you like to see the bill? Total electricity charges = $58.96, Electricity used = 184 kWh

My usual commute is almost exactly 8 miles round trip. My batteries need roughly 333Wh from the charger after a typical commute. My charger's connected to a Kill-A-Watt meter and measures almost exactly 500Wh per charge cycle. Basically using .5kWh from the AC outlet to power myself for 8 miles. 1/2 of a 32 cent kWh = 16 cents. 16 divide by 8 = 2 cents/mile.

Just because you may not have experienced insane electricity prices doesn't mean it's not true...

Oh, I don't question your electric rates. It makes sense when you pay that much and your consumption is around 40wh/mile.

There is a new proposed tiered rate structure here in Austin TX. The first 500kwh would be 3.3cents (1.8cents in winter) per kwh. 500-1000kwh would be around 8 cents, then the highest would be 11 cents. But yeah right now it's around 12 cents total with delivery, so pretty cheap. Solar would be a lot more cost effective at your rates!

[SamTexas]

On this forum, I think most people use RC LiCo. Anyway, here's an estimate by NeilP who uses NanoTech RC LiCo:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 15#p595360

[John in CR]

On this forum, I think most people use RC LiCo. Anyway, here's an estimate by NeilP who uses NanoTech RC LiCo:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 15#p595360

Wrong again. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6098

[Ykick]

$5/month for 250 miles of getting around is a very good deal for NYC. Solar isn't an option for this apt dweller.

I just did a quick calc of my RC Lipo cost for 7,000 miles and found it to be 6.5cents/mile. If they were to die today...

[SamTexas]

Wrong again. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6098

Still stupid as ever. That poll was done in 2008.

[StudEbiker]

So you are admitting that a LiFePo4 powered e-bike is less expensive to operate than a motorcycle?

I still don't think MOST here on the forum use RC LiCo, most of the very active members do, but not most on the forum.

Even granting you the possibility that the battery cost is $.10 a mile, I'm still skeptical of how a motorcycle is cheaper than an e-bike.

The initial cost of a good scooter and a decent e-bike are roughly the same, then after that, it's all about operating expenses. With no gas, insurance, registration, and not having to have a DOT approved helmet, there doesn't seem to be any possibility a scooter can be cheaper than an e-bike.

[SamTexas]

So you are admitting that a LiFePo4 powered e-bike is less expensive to operate than a motorcycle?

I still don't think MOST here on the forum use RC LiCo, most of the very active members do, but not most on the forum.

Even granting you the possibility that the battery cost is $.10 a mile, I'm still skeptical of how a motorcycle is cheaper than an e-bike.

The initial cost of a good scooter and a decent e-bike are roughly the same, then after that, it's all about operating expenses. With no gas, insurance, registration, and not having to have a DOT approved helmet, there doesn't seem to be any possibility a scooter can be cheaper than an e-bike.

Not just any motorcycle. Only a small used motorcycle or scooter.

I don't know how long LiFePo4 battery lasts. I have owned only one LiFePo4 battery, and only for a month. But from what I hear, I think they last a long time. Dogman (I think) has reported 700 cycles and still working. My other ebike batteries are laptop LiCo, which for me are essentially free, but that's definitely not the norm.

My oldest motorcycle is a 1988 Suzuki GN250 which I bought used in 1993 for $1200. It's still in perfect working condition today, cosmetically too. If I were to sell it today, my total cost [everything: insurance ($50/year), registration ($50/year), safety inspection ($15/year), maintenance ($500 since 1993), gas mileage (65mpg), depreciation ($500), note: No repair] would be 8 cents/mile.

You might want to look through this thread
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24087
which I started in Jan 2011. Myself, dogman, and at least one other member gave details about small motorcycle/scooter cost. IIRC, no one exceeded 10cents/mile.

[SamTexas]

At 10cents/mile, that would mean a $400 battery is useless after 4000 miles? I think most of us (using lifepo4) get much better longevity than that. I have a no-name lifepo4 that has 3500/miles on it and still has full (or near full) capacity and performance.

I'm sure LiFePo4 has a lower wear and tear cost if you bought it from a reputable seller like Ping or Cellman. May be 5 cents/mile? But you're in the best position to share that info with us. When your LiFePo4 battery dies or when you sell it, please come back and give us your actual cost per mile. How much do you think your used battery is worth if you were to sell it today? My guess is lot lot less than 50% of what you paid originally.

[cbr shadow]

Interesting discussion and I think you've both made valid points!

[John in CR]

Wrong again. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6098

Still stupid as ever. That poll was done in 2008.

Started in '08 and is still ongoing, and far closer to accurate than "most" which you simply make up. Now go crawl back under your rock till we need a good laugh, because since you brought the side effects of whatever personal problem you're having into the forum you've become downright hilarious.


cbr shadow,

Sammy boy's advice/opinion is worth exactly it's entertainment value. The guy is in Houston where it takes an hour by car at highway speeds to get anywhere, so of course he can't find value in an ebike as transportation. To make matters worse, once he learned how to plug two wires together he suddenly became an authority. Add in some fonts and colors and he's a 4 letter member also starting with an S. I miss old Safe. I found him entertaining too.

John

ps- Ebikes have already been "there" for a few years, and they far surpass the economy of any gasser.