Suggested mods for Razor Pocket Mod

Once again, thanks for the suggestions Dauntless.

The last time any of us used this thing (the batteries are shot now) it probably went 14 or 15 with a rider around 160-170, pretty slowly up hills. As per your suggestion, these are the parts that I will be getting to try running at 36v on the stock motor.

36v 500W controller http://www.ebay.com/itm/CS-36-5-36V-300W-500W-brush-motor-controller-for-Electric-bicycle-scooter-NEW-/251483035083?hash=item3a8d8e95cb&vxp=mtr
Cheap hall effect throttle http://www.amazon.com/Universal-Black-Electric-Scooter-Throttle/dp/B00DFVOSKE/ref=lh_ni_t?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AGH7JXFGQSRT1
2pk of 12v 15AH SLA's http://www.amazon.com/Battery-replaces-gp12120-ps-12120-gp12110f2/dp/B009DPQ2S2/ref=sr_1_36?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1405993980&sr=1-36
1pk of the same 12v 15AH SLA http://www.amazon.com/15AH-Sealed-Lead-Acid-Battery/dp/B0090W1OZE/ref=sr_1_300?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1405994207&sr=1-300
I'm unable to find a motor sprocket more than 11 teeth for #25 chain, I'm not sure what the shaft size and shape are on this motor. Electricscooterparts lists two different sprockets in their parts list for the Pocket Mod. One is 8mm single D-bore, the other is 10mm double D-bore. I'll check out what's on the scooter tomorrow when I get the time. The closest gear ratio I can get to 5 1/3 is 12/65 (5.41:1). Is that close enough?

That still comes out to around $138 not including any sprockets, tools, wire, or connectors. I don't know that I want to spend that much on a solution that's almost guaranteed to burn out my motor, but I suppose most of the stuff except the controller and motor sprocket is stuff that I could use on a new motor setup anyway. I'm just nervous about the motor burning out and taking some other components with it. Is that a reasonable fear or is the motor the only thing that will go out? Also, I don't know that I want to change out wheels. I'd like to keep it looking as stock as possible.

EDIT: Also, would this be worth having to monitor voltages and currents? http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-T-Power-LCD-Display-RC-Watt-Meter-and-Power-Analyzer-130-Amps-130Amps-/310802824855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485d4abe97 How would I wire it up? Between battery and controller, controller and motor, or battery and motor?

Before you buy the controller and throttle, try out the 3 batteries in the stock bike. It might run faster just fine. Nothing left to change if it works. I'm guessing that if that controller brought you any improvement at all it wouldn't be enough and you'd want to swap motors, then that controller wouldn't run a 36v motor any faster, so I suspect it might be a bad choice. Though I haven't had the chance to do this myself. I'm guessing your controller is the 24v/18a Currie, Razor uses a lot of Currie.

I seem to remember someone on this board actually markets a 13t pinion. Also, a smaller sprocket is the same as a bigger pinion. If you drop from an 80 tooth to a 55 tooth and keep the 11t pinion, that's like going to a 16t pinion with that 80t sprocket. The 55t for the pr200 Pocket Rocket and the Pocket Mod show the same part number for a freewheel, the sprocket should be interchangeable. A lot of detective work involved, eh?

Dauntless said:

Before you buy the controller and throttle, try out the 3 batteries in the stock bike. It might run faster just fine. Nothing left to change if it works.... A lot of detective work involved, eh?

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I have the version with an on/off throttle, so I definitely want a new controller and throttle so I can do more of a slow takeoff or control my speed more closely. The reason for the new controller is that the stock one doesn't support a variable throttle. As for the detective work, that's all this project has been so far. Detective work, planning, and forum posts.

Dauntless said:

Also, a smaller sprocket is the same as a bigger pinion. If you drop from an 80 tooth to a 55 tooth and keep the 11t pinion, that's like going to a 16t pinion with that 80t sprocket. The 55t for the pr200 Pocket Rocket and the Pocket Mod show the same part number for a freewheel, the sprocket should be interchangeable.

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Is having a slightly lower ratio (5:1 as opposed to 5.33:1) better or worse than having a higher ratio? Will that .33:1 difference actually change anything? If not, I'll just go with the cheapest option (11t motor, 55t rear wheel).

Not sure what brings you the 5.33, does the wheel stay the same? If the bike struggles on takeoff at 5:1, the 5.33:1 will help a little. The top speed will be slightly less.

I say go with the controller you would want on whatever replacement motor you would get if this came up short. No point in getting two controllers. 36v/30-35a.

check CL for an old e300 for parts. before 2008 they had a VARIABLE throttle! i have 2 of these. then put the rear wheel, 80T sprocket controller and throttle on yours. old e300's cost 0-$50. i got two for free. 1 has steel wheels, they should handle your weight easily, but even the alum wheels should do better than your spokes.
Your golf cart idea is BEST so far!

Dauntless said:

Not sure what brings you the 5.33, does the wheel stay the same? If the bike struggles on takeoff at 5:1, the 5.33:1 will help a little. The top speed will be slightly less.

I say go with the controller you would want on whatever replacement motor you would get if this came up short. No point in getting two controllers. 36v/30-35a.

Click to expand...

I was going off of what you said before about having a 12t pinion and a 64t sprocket. The problem with getting the YK43B now (the controller I would want with a better motor) is that I've read that it can push around 140A peak, which I'm almost positive would burn out the stock motor. I'm fine with having to spend $13 extra to have less of a chance of instantly burning out the motor.

Matt Gruber said:

check CL for an old e300 for parts. before 2008 they had a VARIABLE throttle! i have 2 of these. then put the rear wheel, 80T sprocket controller and throttle on yours. old e300's cost 0-$50. i got two for free. 1 has steel wheels, they should handle your weight easily, but even the alum wheels should do better than your spokes.
Your golf cart idea is BEST so far!

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by my golf cart idea, but I checked Craigslist this morning for cheap E300's or parts and couldn't really find anything. There was one for $80 that needed batteries but the listing had almost no information and it's up near Detroit.

EDIT: I just had another thought. What about brakes? The Pocket Mod has an 80mm band brake on the rear wheel stock, and nothing on the front. Will that be sufficient for stopping or should I swap it out for a disk brake setup of some sort?

http://daytona.en.craigslist.org/snw/4585175468.html
you want to STOP? Golf cart will stop!
.
next thing you will want to ride it more than 3 miles a day

Nah, not really. This is just kind of a fun project to give me something to buzz around town on.

Closest thing I can find to a bolt-on brake upgrade is replacing the front wheel with the front wheel from a Currie iZip 1000. It's the same size but has a more solid hub and brake disc mounts. I would have to weld the calipers onto the frame. I learned how to weld back in 8th grade but that was 5 years ago. I have an uncle that runs a metal fabrication shop, maybe I could have him do it for a small fee. It'd cost $80 shipped for the front wheel and $20 shipped for the calipers. I'd also have to buy another brake lever and cable. I'm still not entirely sure if it's needed though. I can't remember how effective the stock brakes were when it was running.

Greetings old time tank bike fans. If you're looking for a bargain in the Ohio area, just keep reading. (Did you know that Schwinn was a motorcycle company who put out a 'Motorcycle Bicycle' that kept the company from going under when the motorcycle assembly line was forced to shut down?):

Krunchy said:

I was going off of what you said before about having a 12t pinion and a 64t sprocket. The problem with getting the YK43B now (the controller I would want with a better motor) is that I've read that it can push around 140A peak, which I'm almost positive would burn out the stock motor. I'm fine with having to spend $13 extra to have less of a chance of instantly burning out the motor.

Click to expand...

So we need a real expert to chime in here, but from reading the board my understanding is the current reaches the motor if the motor ASKS for it. The voltage will push, but the amperage makes itself available. Too low amperage available is what fries the controller, but overdoing it sounds safe enough. I'm not sure what motor you might want to use that would need 140a. That would be way too fast for that little guy.

Matt Gruber said:

Your golf cart idea is BEST so far!

Click to expand...

He misunderstood your reference to people driving golf karts on the street around you.

Krunchy said:

. . . . I checked Craigslist this morning for cheap E300's or parts and couldn't really find anything. There was one for $80 that needed batteries but the listing had almost no information and it's up near Detroit.

EDIT: I just had another thought. What about brakes? The Pocket Mod has an 80mm band brake on the rear wheel stock, and nothing on the front. Will that be sufficient for stopping or should I swap it out for a disk brake setup of some sort?

Click to expand...

$80 golf kart? I see the prices on things all over the country but it's NEVER like that around me, always an arm and a leg even after it's been reduced to useless JUNK.

I had mentioned swapping out the front wheel and forks from a 16" bike with a handbrake that'll give you better handling and a better stop. The ONE THING I can get cheap around here is 16" kids bikes, $5 and up. Some parts are useful. But that's if you stumble across a garage sale, it'll be $10 and more on Craigslist.

Ohio links:

One 16" bike with a front handbrake, link that says "Free," but we'll see. http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4557677471.html

Other cheapies: http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4559813919.html

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4557194237.html

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4557194237.html

And here's your parts scooter as recommended:

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4577439988.html

http://youngstown.craigslist.org/bik/4513733801.html

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4589083354.html

And another project scooter I've been dying to find, but of course can't, you can probably do better than $50:

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4558252251.html

Oh, yeah, tank bike fans. Can you BELIEVE the prices. I don't know this well enough, but a Monark for $60? I think you could finance several electric bike experiments by buying that one and selling it on eBay. The other might be worth something too. (Dang, there's NOTHING like that around me.):

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4588507019.html

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/bik/4576537829.html

For reference. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_kw=bicycle+monark+tank

Holy mother of posts. I'll try and break it down and respond to each part.

Dauntless said:

So we need a real expert to chime in here, but from reading the board my understanding is the current reaches the motor if the motor ASKS for it. The voltage will push, but the amperage makes itself available. Too low amperage available is what fries the controller, but overdoing it sounds safe enough. I'm not sure what motor you might want to use that would need 140a. That would be way too fast for that little guy.

Click to expand...

I'll take your word for it, you definitely know more about this stuff than I do. I just got into reading forums and researching like a week and a half ago. Going with the YK43B also means I don't have to buy a throttle, so that cuts down on the price a bit. Three other problems that I have noticed on the YK43B are: 1) it doesn't have charger input, 2) it doesn't have a motor cutoff connector, and 3) it doesn't have low voltage cutoff. Now, the motor cutoff I'm not too worried about. I don't exactly plan on braking while I'm on the throttle. I believe I could wire up the stock charge port to the battery pack and just run it direct by wiring the positive on the port to the positive on the first battery and negative on the last battery to negative on the charge port. Then I'd use something like this http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Charger-3-prong-Connector-Electric/dp/B005B7FQGU to charge through the charge port. So I'd have two leads coming from the positive on the first battery and two leads on the negative on the last battery. That would work, right? As for the low voltage cutoff, I'm planning on using this watt meter http://www.ebay.com/itm/G-T-Power-LCD-Display-RC-Watt-Meter-and-Power-Analyzer-130-Amps-130Amps-/310802824855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item485d4abe97, but I'm still not too sure where to wire it in.

Dauntless said:

$80 golf kart? I see the prices on things all over the country but it's NEVER like that around me, always an arm and a leg even after it's been reduced to useless JUNK.

Click to expand...

Not an $80 golf cart. An $80 non-functional E300 for parts.

Dauntless said:

I had mentioned swapping out the front wheel and forks from a 16" bike with a handbrake that'll give you better handling and a better stop. The ONE THING I can get cheap around here is 16" kids bikes, $5 and up. Some parts are useful. But that's if you stumble across a garage sale, it'll be $10 and more on Craigslist.

Click to expand...

I suppose that's a much cheaper solution than a front assembly with disc brakes, I'll go out to some yard sales this week and see if I can find anything. How easy is it to swap the front fork? Just for the record, though, I live in the northwestern corner of Ohio. I think Toledo is the closest Craigslist to where I am.

Once again, thanks for your help Dauntless. It's greatly appreciated.

Krunchy said:

How easy is it to swap the front fork? Just for the record, though, I live in the northwestern corner of Ohio. I think Toledo is the closest Craigslist to where I am.

Click to expand...

I tell you to do it without having seen one of those Mods, I don't know that it is the same as a regular bike. You might want to be pulling bearing cups from the other bike, etc. I don't know if the headtube length is compatible. It looks like a conventional bicycle gooseneck on the Mod. You'll know once you take it apart.

http://www.monsterscooterparts.com/currie-36-volt-5-pin-controller-throttle.html

Dauntless said:

I tell you to do it without having seen one of those Mods, I don't know that it is the same as a regular bike. You might want to be pulling bearing cups from the other bike, etc. I don't know if the headtube length is compatible. It looks like a conventional bicycle gooseneck on the Mod. You'll know once you take it apart.

Click to expand...

I got it stripped down yesterday to the point where I could check out the front fork, the tube on the front fork is an inch in diameter and the headtube is 8" long measured from the bottom ring to the top bolt/ring/retainer thing.

Mocked up battery location with cardboard, should fit perfect with some cutting of the plastic compartment beneath the seat. Possibly mounting the volt/amp meter on the handlebars and for sure getting a handlebar mount for my phone and using that as a speedometer. Ordered parts today, first package should be here by Monday of next week, controller and throttle will take the longest. I'm going to try it out with just the stock brake, if it doesn't perform well enough I'll either bolt on calipers from a bike or get a 16" front fork with calipers attached.

Potential sprocket.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=48051

And hey, Mr. Gruber. Do the e100-200 etc. come up short as parts bikes? Throttles not carry enough current, etc.?

Ok, I'm starting to get some pretty serious buyers remorse. I had never previously looked at the cost of e-bike kits, so I didn't know that I was almost spending as much as the cost of an e-bike kit (if I eventually get a new motor) for something that's not even street legal. I'm not entirely sure yet what I want to do with this project. I'm still within the period where I could return everything and get my money back (minus the shipping costs). If I were to upgrade the motor (after burning out the stock one or not being satisfied with the performance), I would be spending a total of about $370 upgrading this scooter. I have a few concerns about a potential switch to e-bike kits. Firstly, I am going to college next year in Michigan, and their laws require e-bikes to be registered as mopeds and have turn signals and the like in order to be street legal, in which case they would be fully street legal. My concern about that is that they need a proof of purchase to be registered, so what would I do if I bought a kit? Secondly, is it possible to get a somewhat decent e-bike kit for either $370 or slightly more, say about $450? What type of speed or range would I be looking at with a kit of this price? All I have in terms of a bike right now is a Mongoose I bought for $125 at Walmart about 6 years ago. How much would I have to spend to get a decent bike to bolt a kit on to? Would it cost more to go with a kit and a new bike than it would for a similarly spec'd prebuilt bike? At this point I'm not sure how long my commute to work will be during or after college, so I'm not really wanting to put a ton of money into something that I might not use to it's fullest potential. I was definitely really into this project at the start, and now I think I'm coming off the high of first discovering this entire community.

Well, I did talk about doing cheap things FIRST! There are 36v controllers on eBay if you REALLY have the bug, for less that $20 there's a certain learning curve to making it work on your scooter. http://www.ebay.com/itm/120916722140

I'm going to buy this throttle to use with one of those if eBay ever let's me back into my account. It's been a pain. http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Throttle-Hall-0-5V-Twist-Grip-for-E-bike-E-Scooter-/110664728980

I'm always saying people need a starter project BEFORE they go nuts spending money. The mod is such an opportunity under restraint.

One popular stepping stone is http://www.yescomusa.com/Brushless_Electric_Bicycle_Engine-_48v_1000w_Rear_Wheel_Hub_Motor_Kit.html Some report great success swapping out the stock controller for http://www.aliexpress.com/item/72V-1500W-45Amax-BLDC-motor-controller-15FET-4410-s-EV-brushless-speed-controller/499889288.html and adding batteries, going 43mph, etc. On a $100 WalMart bike the stock kit around $300 then $500 for one of these. http://www.ebay.com/itm/48v-20ah-LiFePO4-Battery-BMS-5A-Charger-Electric-Scooter-Ebike-Bicycle-7-8-Weeks-/141141611139?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item20dcb21283 If you spend $50 for the controller upgrade you'd instead need $750 for two of these. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Newest-36v-20ah-LiFePO4-Battery-Rechargeable-5A-Charger-BMS-Powerful-Sea-8-Weeks-/131198317730?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item1e8c0774a2 SLA's are of course cheaper but you might not be happy with them.

I don't see the point in getting carried away with these little things, but some people go whole hog.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=62173

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=61963

Dauntless said:

Well, I did talk about doing cheap things FIRST! There are 36v controllers on eBay if you REALLY have the bug, for less that $20 there's a certain learning curve to making it work on your scooter. http://www.ebay.com/itm/120916722140

I'm going to buy this throttle to use with one of those if eBay ever let's me back into my account. It's been a pain. http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Throttle-Hall-0-5V-Twist-Grip-for-E-bike-E-Scooter-/110664728980

I'm always saying people need a starter project BEFORE they go nuts spending money. The mod is such an opportunity under restraint.

One popular stepping stone is http://www.yescomusa.com/Brushless_Electric_Bicycle_Engine-_48v_1000w_Rear_Wheel_Hub_Motor_Kit.html Some report great success swapping out the stock controller for http://www.aliexpress.com/item/72V-1500W-45Amax-BLDC-motor-controller-15FET-4410-s-EV-brushless-speed-controller/499889288.html and adding batteries, going 43mph, etc. On a $100 WalMart bike the stock kit around $300 then $500 for one of these. http://www.ebay.com/itm/48v-20ah-LiFePO4-Battery-BMS-5A-Charger-Electric-Scooter-Ebike-Bicycle-7-8-Weeks-/141141611139?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item20dcb21283 If you spend $50 for the controller upgrade you'd instead need $750 for two of these. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Newest-36v-20ah-LiFePO4-Battery-Rechargeable-5A-Charger-BMS-Powerful-Sea-8-Weeks-/131198317730?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item1e8c0774a2 SLA's are of course cheaper but you might not be happy with them.

I don't see the point in getting carried away with these little things, but some people go whole hog.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=62173

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=61963

Click to expand...

I've already got all the parts ordered, I was just reconsidering a little bit yesterday, but I think I'm going to go through with this project anyway. I start too many projects and never finish them, so I feel I should at least try and finish it. E-bikes are too expensive for me right now, I think I'll wait until after college when I've got a more stable income and when I can know for sure whether or not I will be able to use an e-bike for my commute. I went with 3x 12v 15AH SLAs, YK43B controller w/ included throttle, GT Power RC watt meter, and I'm going to be wiring the entire scooter with 12 gauge wire and 60A rated Deans connectors for now.

Ok, so I got the last part in the mail today (controller/throttle). First run was about 5 minutes long with me (260lbs) on it, motor didn't even get warm. Got up to about 15mph. Second run was about 10 minutes with my brother (170lbs) on it, motor got a little warm and it got up to 21mph. By this point I hadn't bothered to look at the peak amps or watts on the watt meter. Third run, didn't give the motor much time to cool down, I got half way down the block and my voltage starts dropping to ~24v. I check my battery connections, everything's fine. Except for one thing, the motor is spewing smoke. I push the thing back down the block, check that nothing other than the motor went bad, and then started to look at the watt meter peak measurements that it scrolls through. I just missed the peak wattage, but I saw it was something huge. It scrolls through to peak amps and I see that it says 65A. Then it scrolls through the other two and back to peak wattage. I think it was something insane like 2400W, no wonder the motor burned out. Now I'm not sure what I want to do. My parents keep scolding me for spending so much on something that didn't last. They asked me what I'm going to do with it and I told them I had two options: 1) buy a new motor for $180 (industrial, but I didn't tell them that) or 2) get out while I can and return everything possible. I'd only be able to get about $160 back before shipping costs, and I'm guessing the batteries will be fairly costly to ship and the controller would have to go back to China. I can't return any of the wiring or connectors ($50 total) to Ace because the wire is all chopped up and the connectors are crimped. Not sure what I want to do at this point, I'll try and decide.

36V on the stock motor worked for a while, but it burnt out the motor. I'm not sure if I was too hard on the throttle or the controller was just pushing too much current for the motor to handle. Oh well.

But it was so exciting.

Just think of what it'll be like to learn to fly. Gotta do really well in school and become and engineer or something really highly paid so you can afford all this adventure.

Dauntless said:

But it was so exciting.

Just think of what it'll be like to learn to fly. Gotta do really well in school and become and engineer or something really highly paid so you can afford all this adventure.

Click to expand...

It was definitely exciting and satisfying to see all that work pay off. I can't say I've ever had the mindset to be an engineer, but I'm going to college for information systems and security, so I should be making some pretty good money if I can find the right job.

I think I'm gonna go with returning everything I can. I'll put the money toward a new bike or something. Then I'll consider upgrading to an electric bike after college.