jonescg's NEW electric racebike BUILD thread!

[voicecoils]

here's a rolling frame you missed for $1200:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CBR1000RR-/330582490146

Missing a few bits though, but does give an idea of possible prices.

[c_a]

How long is the distance that you want to race?

With less than 8kWh you will run out of capacity after 12miles or 20km. The load on the batteries is 15C, the voltage will drop a lot.

Good luck with your project.

[jonescg]

The eFX/TTX-GP races are all 20 to 25 km, so 5 laps of Eastern Creek, 7 laps of Winton Raceway and 8 laps of Wakefield Park. From experience, I had almost half a pack left after the race at EC, and that was with 6 kWh on board. So batteries are not a problem.

Granted the bigger motor and heavier bike will draw more juice, I can't see it being a problem really.

[Philistine]

Can't wait to see this come along Chris. The 1000 fireblade will be a sweet frame as a basis in my opinion. It's just on a year since I sold my CBR900 Fireblade, under orders of she-who-must-be-obeyed. Shortly before that I also basically gave away a running but unregistered GSXR750 for $700 because I was moving house and had nowhere to put it.

As you say, most of them (if being sold cheaply) are covered in blood and brain, and less than structurally sound. I presume you have tried all the wreckers and local mechanics obviously? Might be worth putting up a notice at the local mechanics that you are interested?

Have you considered the older GSXR1100s? They were pretty ahead of their time re weight and handling (I am only thinking if you need to go super budget).

[ev_nred]

Hello,
Nice seconda build it may even be better then the first one! why not use a gsxr? I thought the were the best litre bikes in the world? also what about rewinding and water cooling and adding sensors to an rc motor?
cheers,
Jacob

[jonescg]

I am open to any litre bike with enough room to fit all the goods. I'm just a bit of a Honda fan-boy, that's all But yeah, looks like the Gixxer thou would be a much more spacious frame. I need to calm down and save a bit of cash first. The rest of the season with Voltron isn't over yet, and there's a lot more money to spend.

Re: rewinding an RC motor? No way it would have the poke to haul ~195 kg out of a corner. Unfortunately this bike won't be a cheap one (not that Voltron was in any way cheap) but I also learnt that old motto: 'do it properly the first time' yada yada. A big powerful synchronous AC motor is the only way I'm going to get the drive I need.

I can enter into either class, so more batteries is no drama as long as I can fit them in. I still want to keep the weight below 200 kg if possible. I thought about of setting the motor a tiny bit lower to keep the CoG low, and stacking the cells as two racks into the guts of the bike:



It does mean a separate reduction chain, but this could be worked out somehow. Either A123s or Turnigys will work, I'm hoping the A123s some through though. Fewer cells to muck around with, and much safer chemistry.

[jonescg]

Really hope you can pull this one off Chris.
Some Australian made candidates to consider would be:
http://www.ultramotive.com.au for the motor. I think they are developing a smaller sized Carbon motor.
http://www.tritium.com.au for the controller. The wavesculptor200 is very compact for what it can do.
The Australian made angle may also be a plus as far as sponsorship is concerned.
Cheers
Mat B

I got a response from both companies - very nice folks. James (Tritium) got back to me about the Wavesculptor200 and said it will probably run a UQM motor, but not at full power as their controller can't push out much more than 300 phase Amps (UQM's controller pushes out 330). Still, it would extend the useful torque range a bit since it can run at higher voltages.

Bernie (Ultramotive) also got back to me about the Carbon motor. Yes, the motor is 40 kg, but it needs 15 kg worth of inductors to prevent the controller (in this case, a Wavesculptor) from blowing up. Also, the rotor diameter is 402 mm! Huge! Moreover, it is an air cooled motor, which could be a bit of a worry. It requires a nominal system voltage of 450 V too. However, they are working on a smaller motor (the Helium motor) which will be a bit smaller, and more amenable to a motorcycle chassis. I think they should have called it Boron or Beryllium, since there's only one lighter than Helium

[flathill]

You need to find a way to tuck the motor between the swing arm


http://plugbike.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... -ebike.jpg

[jonescg]

nice canoe with wheels!

[ev_nred]

^lol

[AussieJester]

Looks like 3 people could fit on that comfortably, here's me thinking only choppers had long wheelbases
now electric race bikes are 8 foot between axles too are they!?! Yet another beadifully built electric bike
showing all the ICE lovers what to look forward to when oil runs out LoL

KiM

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Chris, Why don't you consider the Hub motors from Enertrac? The hub motor option opens up the complete frame for batteries, controllers etc. It also eliminates the weight and power loss due to the chain.
Regards
John

[flathill]

hub motor in race bike = fail
you might have a fighting chance if you can make it ironless with a halbach array to reduce sprung mass
active suspension would also help but would be banned due to cost

[jonescg]

Hi John,
I'm not convinced that the in-wheel idea can be improved much. There are necessary weights involved in motor construction; unavoidable weights. While it would free up much more battery space, the motors currently available aren't able to make use of the existing power available. Battery technology is going ahead in leaps and bounds, and it won't be long before a 60 kg battery pack contains as much stored energy as a few litres of petrol. The motors on the other hand, have a lot further to go before they are able to make use of it, and a hub motor is at the lower end of the list of technologies best placed to make use of that power.

At least with a frame-mounted motor, active liquid cooing is practical and the handling of the bike is not affected.

Cheers,
CHRIS

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

The Catavolt team is using a dual hub motor with "some" success... I do NOT wish to start a "this motor vs. That motor" debate. But I have had nothing but great customer support when working with the Enertrac organization. Granted I did NOT build a motorcycle for speed purposes.
Either way, best wishes to you in your build.
Regards
John Head

[markcycle]

The Catavolt team is using a dual hub motor with "some" success... I do NOT wish to start a "this motor vs. That motor" debate. But I have had nothing but great customer support when working with the Enertrac organization. Granted I did NOT build a motorcycle for speed purposes.
Either way, best wishes to you in your build.
Regards
John Head

Its best to let these things play out on the track, I hate to use this phrase but it seems to apply all these people typing themselves smart, just build it and we'll see.
Next year we'll be liquid cooled and be better yet.

[jonescg]

Its best to let these things play out on the track,

Agreed We can wax lyrical about the virtues of one method over another, but until they are tested we're just filling up forum pages.

One thing that building Voltron taught me, is that people who don't build bikes are sometimes the most vocal about how things should or shouldn't be done The dual motor, one shaft thing was a classic - all these people telling me that I needed a flexible element in there, where as the flexibility was the very problem in the first place.

ANYway...

Here is a bit of a MS Paint mock-up of my opposite stacked A123 packs. Two of these would fit snugly into the engine bay of a GSXR1000 frame, but the motor would have to be lowered a bit to accommodate them.

[jonescg]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2002-Suzuki- ... _500wt_950

Hmmmm. 2002 Gixxer thou... Could be a goer?? Needs straight forks, so there's a good $800 in addition to the $400 to get it to Perth.

[jonescg]

Well I might not have the cash to do much on the new bike, but I did score a bunch of cables from a friend's work. Look at this stuff!



I landed about 8 m of 50 mm2 cable, perfect for HV stuff, and the flexible earth strap is perfect for inter-connecting battery packs. The 6 wire core stuff will no doubt be handy for throttle wires etc. Score! Jeff said they were going to recycle it all anyway, but it's worth a lot more to me than it is to a copper recycler.

Haven't made up my mind on the Gixxer frame yet; I'd need to get a mate in Mittagong to drive down to the coast and pick it up, and that's worth a bit more than a carton of grog I think... Besides, I don't yet know what two new Agnis will cost me

[Hillhater]

What are you planning for a charger?
Will you need to recharge between heats or is it a simple one race day ?

[jonescg]

Holy thread revival Batman!

Yeah, haven't thought too much about this, but if I'm running a high voltage system I might need to rectify three-phase power to fast charge. I will be charging between sessions, absolutely. Track time is like palladium; rare and expensive! Since most races are 25-30 km long I figure 7-9 kWh is going to be enough, but space is at a premium on a bike. The big motors will drain that in no time, but as long as you come in on empty it's worth it.

I have been looking into EVO-Electric motors - they are powerful and compact, but I'm sceptical of their peak power claims. Still, should be a good place to start. Also learned that the tank bay of most litre sports bikes will barely fit one stack of A123s, so I might just have to go LiPo to make it all fit.

[jonescg]

Nothing much to report here, except I think that a mid 2000s Gixxer might have more belly-space than a Fireblade. Sad, cause the 'Blade is a much nicer bike to steer.



Might have to be one tall rack of A123 pouches, or a 400-brick wall of LiPos...

[voicecoils]

I found a good website for looking at & comparing race frames:

http://www.motorcycleframe.us/motorcycleframes.htm

Ignore the horrible website design, they have heaps of photos showing all common race bikes from various years. Some are quite hi-rez too.

2005 GSXR 600 for example:

http://motorcycleframe.us/Suz%2005%20GSXR%20600%20clear%20p2u%20pic1.jpg

[jonescg]

Thanks for the web link, Abraham. I'm finding it would be more useful if they also had the swing-arm attached, but I shouldn't be fussy.

OK, so what better things to do on a windy, rainy Perth September morn, than to draw ideas for my next bike

I have two ideas in mind - one bike that can be built fairly quickly using a pre-existing frame, and another that will be scratch built. The former will use a GSXR1000 chassis, as this seems to be the most spacious frame I can find. They are also fairly common. The bespoke frame, one where the motor is right at the pivot point, will take some serious thought, but will eventually result in a completely Japan-independent motorcycle. One for later

My friend Antti was kind enough to bring his old Gixxer frame to Winton so we could take some pictures and take a few measurements.



The battery pack I have in mind would be one hundred and forty A123 cells in series, using the opposite stacked method described above, but with two of them side by side. It makes for a 72 kg block, so a winch would be handy to put it in and out. This block would be about 300 mm wide and 360 mm long, and fit inside a Gixxer bay without too much trouble.



The motor would be slung as low as practical, and since the AFM-130 from Evo-Electric is a narrow motor, you can do just this. The reduction drive will take some thought, as there are not many points on the motor where you can bolt a driven shaft. I figure a chain would do reasonably well, and no doubt easier than a series of cogs, stealing power with each rotation. This bit of engineering will be my next project, as I can also use the outer casing of this to invent attachment points for the new stressed member (I was thinking of laser cut ally plate, but no doubt something can be welded up easy enough).

Just got to get the race-prepped bike ready to rip out all the IC bits So if anyone has a mid 2000s Gixxer race bike they wish to retire, let me know

[jonescg]

Another concern is the voltages required to run these EVO-Electric motors.

I got this response from Neville at EVO:

Apologizes for the delay in replying but I have been out of the office for the last two weeks.
The Engineering Dept has made the following comments but based on your original voltage of 420 Vdc:-
The AF-130 machines itself would give about 140Nm continuous torque, 350Nm peak torque, 60kW continuous power, 120kW peak power, which is somewhat below the values specified. Considering the dc voltage of 420Vdc under load, we would need to choose either a AF-130-3 + PM150DZ inverter, which would limit the performance drastically to 140Nm cont. torque, 220Nm peak torque (30s), 60kW cont. power, 90kW peak power (30s) or an AF-130-4 + PM150DZ inverter, which would limit the speed to 6000rpm but give higher peak torque (280Nm) and peak power (120kW). The PM150DZ inverter seems to fit into the space envelope specified (PM150: L:436 mm, W:200 mm, H:87 mm)
The problem for us is that the Rinehart DX inverter’s max dc voltage is 360 Vdc and the DZ inverter is from 500 Vdc. Your original 420 Vdc is bang in the middle of the dead zone!!!
I will have them confirm that the Rinehart PM150DZ is still okay with 500 Vdc max.
Thanks
Neville

The Rineheart controllers actually look bloody good, and they are the same ones that MotoCyzxzyzyxyz is using. It's the voltages required to run the motor to it's full potential that concern me. I can't exceed 500 V, so will I end up with a motor which is pulling excessively high currents for much of the time?
http://www.rinehartmotion.com/products.html