Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.

Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Johnbear » Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:28 pm

A search on e-bay brings up some suspicious lifepo4's. The prices are great. I wonder if they are scams? I see some have sold. Has anyone here bought any? They appear to be cheer ocean packs per the description. I wish I had one for testing purposes. :lol: The weight seems a bit low for LifePO4.

Thanks.
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Link » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:29 pm

I suspect Xyster has something to do with this...

EDIT: 100 mW mark. I think I could run my iPod off this rating...
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby TylerDurden » Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:42 pm

Have a Nice Day,

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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby PJD » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:08 pm

There is also an ongoing discussion regarding this issue in the visforvoltage site. As long as "usatracey" stays out of the discussion, it might remain constructive:
http://visforvoltage.org/forum/2515-any ... y-supplier

As far as my communication with Li Peng so far, he seems fairly knowledgeable The full text of my e-mail correspondence with him, so far, is included below:

MY FIRST E-MAIL:

Can you provide me more information on your 48 volt battery packs packs?

My minimum requirements are 40 amp-hours and a maximum discharge rate of
95 amps for short periods, or 50 amps continuous. I will probably
have use a combination of smaller packs in parallel to fit them in my
scooter's multiple battery box arrangement. The scooter is also
capable of running on 60 volts for more speed, so I may upgrade to a 60 volts.

Therefore, my questions are:

1. Could you provide prices and dimensions for your various capacity 12, 24, 36 and 48 volt packs?

2. What is the maximum amp discharge for each pack size?

3. Could two or more parallel-connected packs be safely connected in
series to obtain a 60 volt pack? The best setup would be a 48 volt
pack in series with a 12 volt pack so it could be returned to the
factory 48 volt arrangement, if needed. But 24 and 36 volt packs in
series are another possibility.

Thank you for time answering my my questions,

Paul Donahue
Pittsburgh Pennsylvania, USA

HIS REPLY, THE NEXT DAY:

Hi Paul,

Thanks for your mail. We can make 60 volts 40 amp-hours LiFePO4
batteries. Our battery packs can easily discharge at 2C current
continuous. To meet your requirement, we can set rated discharging
current at 50 amps and cut-off current at 100 amps. It's not our
standard product. So it will take 15 days to disign, produce and test it.

My answers to your questions are bellow,

1. These are retail prices of our standards 48v products,

48v 10ah 400 usd
48v 15ah 600 usd
48v 20ah 800 usd
Before 2008, every standard product has a 15% off discount and
customized product 10% off for Christmas, so prices will be 48v 10ah
340 usd 48v 15ah 510 usd 48v 20ah 680 usd Shipping Fee to US and
Canada 48v 10ah 65 usd 48v 15ah 85 usd 48v 20ah 105 usd

All prices after discount don't include chargers. 48v charger is
priced 20usd. [!! - PJD]

You could count prices of other products of voltage and capacity based
on the per volt per amp-hour price above. For example, 48v10ah is
priced 400usd, so 24v10ah is 200usd.

60v40ah is not a standard product of us. It's a customized product and
priced 2000usd. 1600usd after discount. The charger is also
customized, priced 50usd.

2. The max continuous discharge rate of our battery packs is 2C and
peak 3C so far, although every single cell can discharge at 5C or higher.
It's easy for a single LiFePO4 battery cell to discharge at a high rate.
However, it's difficult for a series of battery cells to discharge at
high current on condition that it still have a more than 1000 times
lifecycle. That's why we need BMS (Battery Monitor or Management
System) to smart control and balance the charge and discharge of the
whole battery pack. We are continuously developing more intelligent
control technologies for higher discharge rate.

3. 200x150x450mm is the recommended dimension of your packs. In this
shape, the total length of the wires connecting the cells is shortest,
so the resistance of wire is lowest. Of course, we can make the pack
in other shape. It's easy to connect a series of battery packs into a
bigger one, just like buiding blocks. But the difficulty is control
and balance, what a BMS is doing, as I mentioned in Answer Two.
Therefore, someday, if you want split the big pack into two small
ones, you need to change the BMS. But the BMSs are not expensive,
usually priced from 10usd to 20usd. What you have to do is to weld the
wires of splitted battery to the new BMS and buy new chargers.

Hope my answers will help you. Any further questions, please feel free
to ask me.

Best regards,

Ping Li
Shanghai, China

MY RESPONSE:

Ping,

Thanks for the prompt response.

Unfortunately, a single 200x150x450 will not fit in the battery boxes for my
motor scooter application.

I have the following spaces to fit the batteries:

Box 1 - 285mm long, 225mm wide 190mm high
Box 2 - 190 long, 180 wide, 220 high
Box 3 - 185 long, 75 wide, 165 high - probably not usable space.
Box 4 - (under-seat space) 280 long, 200 wide, 225 mm high.

But, Box 4 is useful cargo space, so I would like to minimize use of it.

So, I will probably have to use a combination of your standard smaller packs
in each of these boxes. I was hoping fit a minimum of 40 AH in these boxes,
and obtain the required maximum amperage, by parallel-connecting a
combination of smaller 48 volt packs.

So, what are the dimensions and maximum amperage of the packs whose prices
you provided?

HIS REPLY:

Hi Paul,

I have applied to my partners for 15% off special discount for you. No
matter you buy standard products or customized.

The 60v40ah pack is made of a series of smaller pack. Let's call it base
unit. For 60v40ah, the base unit [i.e cell - PJD] is 3.2v40ah. Therefore, we need to connect
20 base units together. The dimension of each base unit is 100x140x45. If
you want a 48v40ah plus a 12v40ah, box 1 must contain 16 base units. The
whole pack of 280x200x180 looks to fit the box. However, we need some space
for wires. Usually we spare 10mm for the wires. I'm not sure 285mm long can
meet the 280mm length of battery and wires. Another solution looks better,
36v40ah plus 24v40ah. Box1 fits 270x200x190 of 36v pack and box2 fits
180x140x200. Furthermore, there's enough space left for BMS.

Another issue is the location of BMS. Although we split a 60v pack into two
smaller packs physically, logically they're one system and managed by one
BMS. The BMS controls all the 20 base units. So it should be placed in one
of your boxes. The BMS is a PCB, not big. But there must be a group of wires
between the two box. You should be very careful while using the pack. The
wires between the 2 boxes have resistance. Unbalanced higher resistance of
wires between base units is harmful to lifecycle of lithium battery packs.
So you'd better make the two boxes closer.

Standard dimensions and max amperage of our 48v packs are
48v 10ah 150x105x190mm max continuous 20a, peak 40a
48v 15ah 150x100x280mm max continuous 20a, peak 40a
48v 20ah 150x100x360mm max continuous 30a, peak 60a

Regards,

Ping
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Ypedal » Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:13 am

:shock: - RUN !

That sets off so many alarms i can't even hear myself think.

First, no way will they produce, test, and make a custom BMS in 15 days that you would want to allow thru your doorway.

2nd, discounts to intice you to " Buy Now !! ".. also a problem, not only is that battery not built, it's not tested, custom packs should only be requested when you plan to buy a container or a few crates on a production run, it's a 50/50 thing.. may or may not work on arrival. Shipping costs for repair/replacement are so high it's not worth sending back.. and they will claim you abused the pack and it's your fault. no warrantee ( I've been there !! )

The chinese version of QC = Does it work at least once? yes= ship no= solder more wires.

He " Applied for discount " means he's a re-seller/agent/sales guy .. who has to deal with a factory that is promissing to make your battery, that's alot of layers of communication to go wrong..

A few MM's will be "close enough" and when you get this magic battery that won't fit in your tightly measured space = doh..

20 $ chargers = Fire hazard.. no CE or UL certification. fans that will start to turn when you plug them into the pack feeding from the battery...

ok.. if that's not enough to discourage you from going thru with this.. then please accept the fact that you are the guineapig for this pack and this is likely a big waste of money.

Do me a favor.. ask him if you can just buy bare cells to assemble yourself. Let us know what he replies to that.
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Tony » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:22 pm

I wonder how much extra the "crust" would be LOL. I must have one with the crust.

Best choice of 48V electric bike,very cheap price with long life,and light weight,suit ride within 100KM.
Notes:This batteries no including the crust,it can instead of the plumbum acid batteries directly,can use ordinary acid batteries charge to electricize(no electronegative pulse).
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BMC front hub motor 26" wheel
Crystalyte 35a 36-72 volt controller
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Johnbear » Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:56 pm

The number of these batteries is increasing! It would be awesome if they are good. Hopefully the sellers will be around for a while. I have a Yesa pack with no complaints so far!
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby PJD » Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:06 pm

Tony,

The person I was dealing with has a better command of English. But some of the mis-chosen words the Chinese use can get comical - like the tea machine in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, their word-choice is almost, but-not-entirely...wrong.


Ypedal,

Anyone who bought an e-max scooter knows all about Chinese quality control. But unlike most owners (like this person: http://e-max.us/). I learned to consider the scooter just a "kit" and, learning a bit of electronics and soldering along the way, I fixed the defects and modified my two e-max's (and their awful chargers) to satisfactory performance, 75 kph top speed, 45 kph up a 12% grade, no down time in daily use all last season (9600 total km on one of them) - Their "2000 watt" brushless hub motor is proving to be quite rugged and very conservatively rated - I'm running it at up to 5700 watts for short periods.

But, I've run up against the limitations of "plumbum acid" batteries (and their "silicone" snake-oil variant) for some of the trips me and my wife would like to use the scooter for (without having to resort to "opportunity charging") and I can't afford a Vectrix or five U-charge batteries.

If you visit the visforvoltage forum, there are a couple of guinea-pigs to follow, and yes, I plan to ask about ordering just 20 cells and a couple BMU's.
Last edited by PJD on Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Johnbear » Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:34 pm

Tempting to be a ginuea pig! A little modification, clean up the packing, check everything and re wrap it with this from ebikes.ca
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby fechter » Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:04 pm

PJD wrote: I learned to consider the scooter just a "kit" and, learning a bit of electronics and soldering along the way,



If you consider the batteries in the same light, you should be fine. Most of the cheaper ones come "unpackaged" and the BMS may be hanging by threads and require some fixing up. The packaging is not trivial, but like the other resourceful members here, I'm sure you can come up with something. I just worry about getting a dead cell or two. It might almost be worth ordering an extra cell or two just to keep as backups.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Arbiker501 » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:05 pm

Hey GUYS,

I did take the risk of ordering a duck tape pack. Things like that happen when i have to much coffee and to much time on my hands.
Anyway, The packed was payed for the next day after "won" . Ping emailed me the tracking number for the pack in 24 hours after the pack was paid for.
It has made it to the US and cleared customes in about 4 days since I payed for it.

I will hope to get it pretty soon. I am more than a newbie. SO wish me luck. However, once i get the pack i will be happy to post pics and let you guys know the results.

Plus , I am sure i will need your help with some things as well. So wish me luck with the pack.

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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby TylerDurden » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:28 pm

We do wish you the very best of luck.

But let's keep in mind:

Ping is a reseller/front. He (or She) may get batteries from any number of sources. One customer's success does not lend assurance that any subsequent customer will get similarly successful goods.

Unless you know the actual source of your cells, or know your reseller well enough to accept their assurance; every purchase is a roll of the dice. You don't have to take my word for it, you can also ask Don Harmon, Goldbrick, Ypedal, JoshK, or any of the other domestic resellers.

:D
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby albie » Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:45 pm

I'm subscribing to this thread to see how it spans out ... very interested!
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x5304 Cruiser
Front Tyre - 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms
Rear Tyre - 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms
Battery Pack - 48v 15aH LiFePO4 ebay Duct tape Pack (DEAD!)
Current Flat Speed -
x5304 @ 72v - 70kph max
x5304 @ 48v - 52kph max
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby recumbent » Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:28 pm

$20 for a charger is suspicious indeed, but in all fairness to the seller, giving better prices before year-end is not unusual if youve ever run a buisiness. Year-end is always hectic to make the numbers, I've been there, and the pressure to sell, is huge. Good luck to all that take the plunge.
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max speed: 52 km/h (30 mph),
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby fechter » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:54 pm

OK Arbiker501, you got a bunch of us watching to see what happens. Guinea pig it is...

The cost for the manufacturers to make a charger is so low that they can still make money at $20. In large volumes, it's amazing how cheap electronic stuff can be. I bet they just didn't do their homework to see what others were charging for them.

Batteries involve a bit more new technology in processing, so it's not clear how these things will fare in the long run.
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Arbiker501 » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:52 pm

Fetcher,

Well if things go well I will let you know . If it is terrible , I will just fade away lol. But yes i am looking forward to seeing how it works out.
I dont know much about this type stuff. I am not sure if it has the same discharge rate as some other LIfepo4 however. I am running a stock pedal first controller on a Wilderness Electric BL-36. I think it is only 20 AMPs so i hope it meets those needs.

I know it is a risk . I have read a few threads and it looks like people have had hit and miss luck with other suppliers as well. I wish I had though it thru i would have got a extra cell or two That would had been a good idea.

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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby albie » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:55 pm

Looks like i've put my hand up also to be a guinea pig for the duct tape ebay lipos...

will let you know how it pans out once i receive it.

I won't be able to use it as my setup only supports 36v! But I am waiting for my hub setup so i won't be able to do any proper testing till mid jan (if it gets here!)
ebike v2.0
Fuji Nevada 3.0 2008
x5304 Cruiser
Front Tyre - 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms
Rear Tyre - 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms
Battery Pack - 48v 15aH LiFePO4 ebay Duct tape Pack (DEAD!)
Current Flat Speed -
x5304 @ 72v - 70kph max
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Arbiker501 » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:52 am

ALBIE,

Well i have noticed a many more on ebay all the sudden. Dang it . I dropped almost 400 for mine . Now they have quite a few buy it now for much less. I hate it when that happens. On the up side if they are any good then the next one will be all that much cheaper.


IF these do work out , I bet we will see lots of folks running 72 volt Lifepo systems.

Merry Christmas.
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby albie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:00 am

yeah i noticed that as i've been shopping for Lifepo4 packs for ages now.

BiGH will be helping me out in testing these packs (so i don't blow anything up)... so look out for that soon!

Merry christmas too dude... and have a great new year!
ebike v2.0
Fuji Nevada 3.0 2008
x5304 Cruiser
Front Tyre - 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms
Rear Tyre - 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms
Battery Pack - 48v 15aH LiFePO4 ebay Duct tape Pack (DEAD!)
Current Flat Speed -
x5304 @ 72v - 70kph max
x5304 @ 48v - 52kph max
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby PJD » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:37 pm

As far as buying separate 40AH cells (he calls them "base units", here is Ping's response:

Hi Paul,

Merry Christmas.

Answer 1. Yes, we can sell you base units and BMS with a technical guide.
The construction is not difficult if you have basic skills. However, there's
one important thing that you must pay attention to. When you solder the
basic units' wires to BMS, you must make the resistance of the soldering
point as low as possible, or the battery pack could be hot and dangerous.

Answer 2. We purchase cells from local factories. They OEM cells for global
battery firms. But we don't know who these global firms are, because they
have agreement to keep secret. However, we can assure that we have highest
quality cells. All the cells are tested before production.

Any question, please feel free to contact me. Have a good Chistmas eve.

Regards,

Ping

So, take it for what it's worth. Gotta make up my own mind in a few days.
The most suspicious thing is the reply they are being supplied to OEM's with non-disclosure agreements. But
It's not like any products are bursting onto the market that use these cells - although e-scooter sales are quit big in China itself.

Happy Holidays everyone,

Paul D.
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Johnbear » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:40 pm

Top secret Lifepo4 cells, sounds interesting, if not a bit scary! I am dying of curiosity to see one of these packs on the forum!
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby recumbent » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:00 pm

Arbiker501 wrote:ALBIE, Well i have noticed a many more on ebay all the sudden. Dang it . I dropped almost 400 for mine . Now they have quite a few buy it now for much less. I hate it when that happens.
IF these do work out , I bet we will see lots of folks running 72 volt Lifepo systems. Merry Christmas.


You are still getting the batteries for half the price of other vendors for the same chemistry and AH rating.

As for 72 volt systems, i believe that is still considered potential overheat zone with extended rides or hills. 48V-60v is a good, safe, yet powerfull enough powersupply for a pedal bike.

Heck, electric automobile kits in the 80's and 90's had 60-72Volt kits to retrofit VW Rabbits, i know this because i still have the plans and parts list, they used surplus aircraft starter/generator motors as one supplier .
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Arbiker501 » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:55 pm

Hello Guys,

You have to love a early Santa. Ok so I got in One of the Duct tape packs. It was bubble wrapped and came in undamaged. I ordered a extra charger . One of the chargers was cracked on the side. All wires were labled .

I have not had time to take the pack for a long ride or charge or discharge. I wish i had a watts meter to give you guys some better info.

Ok, On the short 10 mile ride straight from the box without charging. It was impressive. Mostly the top speed was not any better on my BL36 however thru and till the end of the ride speed dropped very very little. I have the battery on the charger now . I dont see myself being able to wait till the am for a spin.

The Key thing I would like to let everyone know. I emailed Ping regarding some of the other packs. From his email there is not a relationship between him and Anna . The main seller of lifepo on ebay. The packs look very similar so who knows.

I just wanted to say Mine came from PING . The price was about 400 plus shipping. The others are much cheaper so hopeful they are just as good. For me it was a little bit more than I was about to spend on a a10 amh nimh from Battery space.

I think it is way to early to tell if these are worth anything . I just wanted to update you guys and say . He did ship. I got the product in about a week from the day i "won" on ebay. I paid the next day and recieved the battery in about 6 days , Including the weekend.

If you guys give me some advice i will try to do some testing. I dont have a volt meter but think that is pretty cheap at wal mart and will go pick one up .

So you guys know what i do about the battery . I was thinking of going to 72 volts but after the ride this evening the LifePO4 is was so much stronger than SLA it pulled up hills and held top speeds. It did drop some but not much at all. This is not even charged. I am sure you guys have more experance than I do. I don't think the cold weather bothers the LIFEPO4 as much as SLAs Now keep in mind my slas were 7 amp hour and know telling how old on a Cheap close out kit .

MERRY CHRISTMAS
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby Rassy » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:30 pm

Arbiker, are those 36V 10AH or 48V 10AH? Were the old SLA's 36V?

Thanks. Merry Christmas :D
-Rassy-
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Re: Duct Tape E-Bay Lifepo4s???

Postby albie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:58 pm

I'm getting my pack from Anna. FYI...
ebike v2.0
Fuji Nevada 3.0 2008
x5304 Cruiser
Front Tyre - 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms
Rear Tyre - 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworms
Battery Pack - 48v 15aH LiFePO4 ebay Duct tape Pack (DEAD!)
Current Flat Speed -
x5304 @ 72v - 70kph max
x5304 @ 48v - 52kph max
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My new ride (v2.0)
My old ride (v1.0)
albie
100 W
100 W
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:07 am
Location: Mill Park, VICTORIA, Australia

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