LI-ion NiCoMn Battery from BMSBattery

[Haste]

they have a newer 15ah lion one also now. there only rated for 40 amps MAX, 20 AMPS cruising, but a 15ah pack would have more cells in parallel so safer for 30amp discharge?

[Neophyte]

Would the 20ah version fit in falcon ev bag?

Affirmative.

I have two of the 48V20Ah battery packs and two of the Falcon EV bags. The packs do fit with room to spare for wiring and such. I purchased the two packs at different times. Taking delivery of the first pack in November 2011 and the second in January. The first used [ 6665143 ] cells while the second used upgraded [ 6068135 ] cells. The first is 19.6 Ah in use [ on average ] while the second is 20.4 Ah and is physically slightly smaller.

Both packs have been excellent in use. No problems whatsoever with discharge up to 25A nor with charging.

I plan on buying two more such packs next week for use with my new BMC kit and the Crystalyte HS3540 kit I plan on buying.

I use the two original packs on my eZee set-up. One in a Crystalyte bag on the rear rack and the other in one of the Falcon EV bags in the front triangle. Provides excellent balance and handling and allows me greater than 200 kms distance with a reasonable degree of moderate pedalling.

I took the Falcon EV bags to a local seamstress and had her sew a matching black patch over the green logos. A matter of increasing the stealth factor. Of reducing potential theft. Cheap enough added insurance at five bucks.

I use an Axiom rain cover over the rear rack bag to conceal the [ Crystalyte ] logo.

[ Edit ]

48V20Ah battery pack dimensions...

First pack: [ 279 x 178 x 75 mm ]

Second pack: [ 279 x 165 x 75 mm ]

The latest available: [ 300 x 185 x 75 mm ]

The latest detail coming courtesy of Judy Liu [ bmsbattery@gmail.com ] and, if accurate, means fitting into the Falcon EV bag would be a literal stretch. A little something to consider.

[cwah]

Do you also consider the zippy compact from HobbyKing?
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... mpact.html

It wasn't available during the time you purchased it, but now it's available!!

It seems to be a nice alternative to the NiCoMn, for a good price, much higher amps, potentially higher lifecycle and as compact as NiCoMn. Not yet sure how to charge that though!

[Haste]

any updates on this battery? hows it holding up, charging, ect. They have the 10ah version on sale! Good for 15 miles Id say...

[Racer_X]

I bought the 48v 10ah Li-ion with the aluminum case for the kids ebike. They seem to work pretty good, don't know much yet about battery life yet because the kids don't ride daily like i do. Since my ping has died recently I found myself using it daily. My biggest problem is the 3a charger that comes with it.

I plan to get the (Alloy Shell 400W Battery EBike Charger).
Would it be safe to charge at a 5a or 6a rate? What is the max charge rate for these batteries.
I chatted with BMSbattery and they said 5a is OK, but I would like to get you guys opinion on this.

[motomech]

Charging at 5 Amps is only .5C, not a problem for the cells in the Li-on BMS Battery.
The thing to know about these batteries is that, even at 3 amps, 90% of the charge happens reasonably quickly.
I had a Ebike Ca 48V 8Ah and if taken all the way down to LVC, it would charge up to 90% in 1 1/2 to 2 hr.s.
The remaining 10% took another hr. as the BMS tops it off.

[cwah]

Anyone has these batteries for more than 6 months? Have you noticed any reduction in capacity?

[NeezyDeezy]

I'm normally pretty open minded and have patience for this kind of thing, but Judy at BMS battery is worthless. Won't/can't send me any of the information I've asked for -- very simple questions asked clearly -- despite repeated attempts. I really don't want to buy something like a battery from these people, especially given the way they're dishonest about the weight of the batteries.

[cwah]

48V20Ah battery pack dimensions...

First pack: [ 279 x 178 x 75 mm ]

Second pack: [ 279 x 165 x 75 mm ]

The latest available: [ 300 x 185 x 75 mm ]

The latest detail coming courtesy of Judy Liu [ bmsbattery@gmail.com ] and, if accurate, means fitting into the Falcon EV bag would be a literal stretch. A little something to consider.

How come the latest pack is bigger than the others?

[Neophyte]

I prefer the BMSBattery products.

Suit my needs and at a reasonable price.

The packs are well-constructed single units complete with advanced BMS. Charger included.

The specs overall meeting, again, my needs.

As for weight?

I tried numerous times to submit a comment but with no success. Was told by Annie Lei that the comment system wasn't operational. But my message regarding pack weight did hit home as the site page was updated to the correct weight of 7 kg. from the original, and erroneous, 4.8 kg.

Page seen here…

http://www.bmsbattery.com/48v/249-48v-1 ... -pack.html

Here's what Annie Lei wrote to me…

"Just check the weight of the battery, it should be 7KG, they write the wrong weight on the website. Sorry for that! We will check carefully in the future. For the comment page, it seems it never works; I try it also but no work, I will check with the technician department next week."

And I've been using my packs on a daily basis for just over six months with no issues. Many of the rides are up to 175 km.

There hasn't been any reduction in capacity at all. First battery still at 19.6 Ah while the second is still at 20.4 Ah.

As for the size of the latest packs?

Slightly larger due to different cells being used.

Here's what Judy Liu wrote to me…

"Different battery pack ( different cells ) has the different dimension. Now the order #3115 is 300 X 185 X 75mm more or less. Thanks."

The packs overall are great.

I'm completely satisfied and will definitely buy again.

Good luck with whatever buying decision(s) you make.

[cwah]

Thanks for this good feedback neophyte.

So at 7kg, the 48V20AH battery top at 137wh/kg. That's not bad at all.

Do you do 100% depth of discharge frequently? And how many C do you use usually?

[neptronix]

Thanks for this good feedback neophyte.

So at 7kg, the 48V20AH battery top at 137wh/kg. That's not bad at all.

Do you do 100% depth of discharge frequently? And how many C do you use usually?

The cheap hobbyking lipos we run here are 140-160wHr/KG.
They also put out 20C. That battery puts out 1C.

I'd say that hobbyking probably has better customer service by a factor of 10, as well.

Everything about this NMC battery has been unimpressive.
And we already know that BMSBattery is an awful company.

[cwah]

Yeah, I'm also considering lipo, but they require at minima 15% margin (high voltage / low voltage) capacity.

So a 140wh/kg lipo is equivalent to a 119wh/kg battery. (140wh-15%).

A 160wh/kg lipo is a zippy compact, and 160wh-15% = 136wh/kg usable battery.

So basically we have:
- Zippy compact = 136wh/kg usable battery at 25C but can burn your house and are harder to manage.
- NMC = 137 wh/kg usable battery at 1.5C

The zippy compact would be preferable if they were cheaper. But they are also 20% more expensive than the NMC.


That's why I'm still hesitating

[neptronix]

Yeah, I'm also considering lipo, but they require at minima 15% margin (high voltage / low voltage) capacity.

So a 140wh/kg lipo is equivalent to a 119wh/kg battery. (140wh-15%).

A 160wh/kg lipo is a zippy compact, and 160wh-15% = 136wh/kg usable battery.

The zippy compact would be preferable if they were cheaper. But they are also 20% more expensive than the NMC.
That's why I'm still hesitating

That's because they have a BMS.
You could put a BMS on a lipo and have the same result.

But realistically these cheap chinese packs come with unmatched cells and BMSes that drain from 1 cell. That's how you get less and less capacity over time. I forget who, but someone is reporting that they're getting 1/2 the capacity of their BMSBattery NMC pack in less than a year..!

You are way better off with the lipo. I also run 10% SOC.. you can too, if you know what you're doing. otherwise 15% is cutting it fairly safe.

[cwah]

Yeah, but the BMS is on the NMC side.

Without BMC the NMC battery would have higher volumetric density. They're also cheaper.

I'm just wondering how that extra payment on the lipo worth it. They zippy compact haven't been tested by a members. Maybe it has very short cycle/calendar life.

[neptronix]

Yeah, but the BMS is on the NMC side.

Without BMC the NMC battery would have higher volumetric density. They're also cheaper.

I'm just wondering how that extra payment on the lipo worth it. They zippy compact haven't been tested by a members. Maybe it has very short cycle/calendar life.

Most BMSes are well under 1lb. When you're talking about a 20AH, 48V pack, the cells are the majority of the weight. Have you ever picked up a BMS before?

The cycle/calendar life of the NMC is also unproven. I think they claim 500 cycles, but with a BMS that kills 1-2 cells in a short period of time, and the fact that the pack comes with unmatched cells, how many cycles do you really think you're gonna get out the entire pack? not much... and when a cell dies, where are you going to get a replacement? I don't see replacement cells on BMSBattery's site.

You don't necessarily need zippy compact. Even Turnigy 20C is good in terms of density.
People have stretched the turnigy and zippy batteries to 600 cycles..

But if cycles are what you want, you want lifepo4. That's at the expense of your energy density, but it is a greater value, for sure!

[o00scorpion00o]

I would hope NMC lasts much longer than that is Nissan/Renault will be using it in 2015 ?

[neptronix]

scorpion.. i do doubt they're using bmsbattery's cells

If you ever read some NMC spec sheets... well, they vary widely in every way. There are the Dow Kokam, which will do thousands of cycles, and can come in lighter than RC Lipo with discharge rates that are halfway decent at 2-4C..

Then it goes all the way down to.. worse than RC Lipo in density.. under 1C discharge.. 500 cycles or lower.. and poor quality, even poor safety.

The cells BMSBattery are using are at the lower end of that spectrum.

[cwah]

Neophyte seems to have good results with these cells. 6 months without any capacity loss? That's very very good.

[o00scorpion00o]

scorpion.. i do doubt they're using bmsbattery's cells

If you ever read some NMC spec sheets... well, they vary widely in every way. There are the Dow Kokam, which will do thousands of cycles, and can come in lighter than RC Lipo with discharge rates that are halfway decent at 2-4C..

Then it goes all the way down to.. worse than RC Lipo in density.. under 1C discharge.. 500 cycles or lower.. and poor quality, even poor safety.

The cells BMSBattery are using are at the lower end of that spectrum.

Good job then Nissan and Renault will be making the cells themselves so!

Nissan will be making the batteries in the U.K in 2015.

[neptronix]

scorpion: cool.. your area could use that kind of work. Maybe one day we'll make a battery or two here in the US..

cwah: We'll see how it goes over the long term. Stuff from BMSBattery ( and many vendors like them ) is hit / miss. No quality control before they ship it out.. you are the QC

[Neophyte]

I have two kits currently.

An eZee and a BMC.

Both installed on a Giant platform.

Seen here...

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-ca/bik ... 786/49386/

My two NCM packs I switch from one bike to the other as needed. Until I buy two more packs which I'll do soon.

In use I fully drain the packs about 30 percent of the time [ distances approaching 200 km ]. Daily average is in the area of 30 Ah used. And I always recharge immediately upon arriving home and, again, there's never been a problem.

The longest the packs have remained unused following being fully recharged is three days. The CA voltage reading, thereafter, still at 53.8V. My rarely used eZee LiMn pack doesn't fair as well when left unused.

Pack seen here…

http://ebikes.ca/store/photos/B4810LiM-EZ_Kit.jpg

As for C rate?

I set the CA current limit to 20A to remain in line with the pack's continuous discharge spec...

[ Maximal Continuous Discharge Current: 20Amps. ]

Despite the maximal spec...

[ Maximal Discharge Current: 40Amps. ]

Note...

eZee kit controller [ 20A ]
BMC kit controller [ 25A]

48V and 20A at WOT under ideal riding conditions without pedalling...

eZee : 40 km/h

BMC : 48 km/h

Again, no issues with the packs. Having performed flawlessly. Well constructed complete with protective padding. The included chargers functioning 100 percent.

And no major issues with BMSBattery as a company nor with any of the staff.

Will definitely continue to give the company my custom.

And, hopefully, we'll soon be seeing on the market packs hosting some of these claimed anode/cathode, etc. advancements that will, supposedly, yield energy densities up to ten times what we're talking about herein.

You just never know!

[o00scorpion00o]

scorpion: cool.. your area could use that kind of work. Maybe one day we'll make a battery or two here in the US..

cwah: We'll see how it goes over the long term. Stuff from BMSBattery ( and many vendors like them ) is hit / miss. No quality control before they ship it out.. you are the QC

Good for the U.K al right, I thought I saw somewhere where they were to build the leaf in the U.S ?

[cwah]

I have two kits currently.

An eZee and a BMC.

Both installed on a Giant platform.

Seen here...

http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-ca/bik ... 786/49386/

My two NCM packs I switch from one bike to the other as needed. Until I buy two more packs which I'll do soon.

In use I fully drain the packs about 30 percent of the time [ distances approaching 200 km ]. Daily average is in the area of 30 Ah used. And I always recharge immediately upon arriving home and, again, there's never been a problem.

The longest the packs have remained unused following being fully recharged is three days. The CA voltage reading, thereafter, still at 53.8V. My rarely used eZee LiMn pack doesn't fair as well when left unused.

Pack seen here…

http://ebikes.ca/store/photos/B4810LiM-EZ_Kit.jpg

As for C rate?

I set the CA current limit to 20A to remain in line with the pack's continuous discharge spec...

[ Maximal Continuous Discharge Current: 20Amps. ]

Despite the maximal spec...

[ Maximal Discharge Current: 40Amps. ]

Note...

eZee kit controller [ 20A ]
BMC kit controller [ 25A]

48V and 20A at WOT under ideal riding conditions without pedalling...

eZee : 40 km/h

BMC : 48 km/h

Again, no issues with the packs. Having performed flawlessly. Well constructed complete with protective padding. The included chargers functioning 100 percent.

And no major issues with BMSBattery as a company nor with any of the staff.

Will definitely continue to give the company my custom.

And, hopefully, we'll soon be seeing on the market packs hosting some of these claimed anode/cathode, etc. advancements that will, supposedly, yield energy densities up to ten times what we're talking about herein.

You just never know!

Thanks for this feedback. Now with Neptronix comments, I don't know anymore toward which battery I should go

[neptronix]

Some people actually have good luck with BMSBattery and their products.

I've heard too many horror stories about that company on my time in this forum to recommend them.
Do your own research and decide whether or not you want to make a transaction with that company.