Improved Weatherproofing Idea

[grindz145]

You could try Electrolube DCA Modified Silicone Conformal Coating. ]

This is exactly what I had in mind. When you said 200 I thought 200C (which I shouldn't because Im from the US but that's what engineering will do to you ) 200F is not a big deal and I think it would be definitely worth doing. It dosn't make a terrible mess like many of the alternatives ive suggested either.

Doing this, in conjunction with a vent (perhaps one that would somehow allow moisture to escape but would discourage water from entering). Ill have to think about what something like that might look like...

[flip_normal]

I haven't tried it, since I don't ride in the rain, but ACF-50 seems to have a good reputation.

ACF-50 ANTI-CORROSION FORMULA
HOW IT WORKS: ACF-50, Anti-Corrosion Formula, is a state of the art, anti-corrosion lubricant compound, specifically designed for the Aero Space Industry. It is an ultra Thin Fluid Film Compound (TFFC) that actively treats metal using advanced polar bonding technology. As seen from the diagrams, ACF-50’s synthetic inhibitors and active chemistry penetrates through the oxide deposits (white powder) to the base of the corrosion cell where it emulsifies, encapsulates, and then lifts the electrolyte away from the metal surface. ACF-50 then allows this moisture to evaporate while providing an atmospheric barrier that prevents further moisture contact. With the electrolyte removed the corrosion process is halted. ACF-50 actively penetrates and “creeps” into the tightest seams, lap joints, micro cracks, and around rivet heads, displacing moisture and other corrosive fluids (orange juice, coke, coffee, salt water) in these corrosion prone areas. ACF-50’s thin film acts like an “OFF SWITCH” for corrosion remaining effective for up to 24 months.

If a small vent hole was drilled and covered with an adhesive patch then that would allow for occasional re-application.

[grindz145]

hell yeah. I think I am more interested in ACF-50 for my gas(bad word) motorcycle and/or car ... This looks like it is worth a try for sure

[grindz145]

For the vent: I was thinking maybe something like a grease fitting or break bleeder nipple. This could allow opening and closing of the valve, but more importantly you could attach a tube and feed it around is such a way that it would not allow water in easily but would let moisture out.

[dogman]

I think the Canadians were thinking in terms of a hole and a rubber plug to fit into it when out running. The idea was to just open it about once a month. Some rusty motors were running with a lot of liquid water inside em after 6 months of daily riding in rain. I think a bit of gorilla tape, or aluminum duct tape would cover a small hole easy. Some humidity is inevitable, but these guys live where moss grows on the spokes. For the rest of us, a drip loop on the wiring is all we need. Mabye a spot of gutter sealant on the wires opening.

[grindz145]

I am not sure I would worry about it in NM:D lucky dog.

[zukster]

It made sense to me, once a drop of water gets in, it would tend to stay in there.

I just pointed a heat gun on the low setting at my motor for a few hours. About 6 inches away. It finally worked
after that. But I'd rather do that once in a while then drill a vent hole that could potentially let even more water.

I'm using my bike as regular transportation right now though, so I have to figure out a way to make it more
reliable in the wet. I see that Bafang has new motors advertised as waterproof. I might try one.

[Affliction]

It made sense to me, once a drop of water gets in, it would tend to stay in there.

I just pointed a heat gun on the low setting at my motor for a few hours. About 6 inches away. It finally worked
after that. But I'd rather do that once in a while then drill a vent hole that could potentially let even more water.

Sounds like wet and shorted hall sensors to me and there is an easy fix. These cheap chinese hub motors always rust right to hell.
You park the bike in the fall and go to ride in the spring and the motors are usually frozen solid with rust!
Even if you ride daily year round like myself the motors build up with rust. It is totally impossibe to prevent moisture buildup in a hub motor regardless of the make and design by the simple fact that the heat cycling of use and storage draws in condensation from the outside air!
Thus the inevitable rust. Rusty water is an electrolite and this soon shorts out the poorly sealed hall sensors. To make matters worse, chrystalite mounts their hall sensors at the bottom of the stator and now they are swimming in this solution!
I've ridden 3 winters in a row in Ottawa Canada and I learned the hard way on the correct way to weatherproof a hub motor.
You need a product that is semi fluid so that it creeps and reapplys itself continuiosly to protect the metals from rusting and this includes the tiny hall sensors. So drilling a drain hole is out of the question as all of your protection would spray out as you rode. The water that gets in is not an issue, believe me!
The solution is so easy that you guys may at this...... Drill a hole mid-way on the radius of the hub cover the size of an aerosol can-straw.
If you've opened your hub, reapply sealant to the mating surfaces. Thats it!
Now get a water repellant lubricant such as silicone spray and fog your motor with it; the hole is great for periodic reaaplication.
My lube of choice is Wurth Film as it is extremely resistant to mixing with moisture and it won't wash off of it's applied surfaces.
I don't even cover the hole with anything, it's so small it's not worth worrying about.
Trust me, this works and your hub problems are gone for good!

[zukster]

You park the bike in the fall and go to ride in the spring and the motors are usually frozen solid with rust!

Were only talking six months in summer plus this winter so far, so I haven't actually opened it up yet
to check - but I shall. I greased the gears well with synthetic grease before putting it together in the
1st place. How does that Wurth Film silicone spray interact with grease? (if you know)

Thanks for posting your fix. Other people on the forum have discussed the idea of filling the hub
with some kind of oil or packing the whole thing with grease before putting it on the bike but I
don't think anyone tried it.

There was also concern about some of the oils or greases negativity effecting some of the mess
type stuff in the motor that keeps some of the wires in place in some motors.

You need a product that is semi fluid so that it creeps and reapplys itself continuiosly to protect the metals from rusting and this includes the tiny hall sensors....Now get a water repellant lubricant such as silicone spray and fog your motor with it

So what do you mean by "fog"? Don't you just have to use enough so you know its sloshing around?

My motor is a Banfag SWXH rear. What's yours?

[zukster]

I just read that Wurth Film is a silicone dielectric spray.

That gives me the idea of opening up my motor, packing it with silicone dielectric grease ,
the closing it up to lock it in. Its pretty cheap at Canadian Tire, or I wouldn't consider it.
7 dollars for a 85 gram tube of Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up grease, which I verified is
silicon based.

That should stay in there a while without needing to drill a hole at all.

[monster]

the magnets and hall sensors rust the most especially NeDyFeB magnets. paint them

[grindz145]

Thanks! This sounds like a pretty good testament to this method. I have been leaning this way myself. I think instead of the wurth I will use ACF 50 that was mentioned on this thread i seems like a pretty good product. I have heard good things about the film.

[grindz145]

I just read that Wurth Film is a silicone dielectric spray.

That gives me the idea of opening up my motor, packing it with silicone dielectric grease ,
the closing it up to lock it in. Its pretty cheap at Canadian Tire, or I wouldn't consider it.
7 dollars for a 85 gram tube of Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up grease, which I verified is
silicon based.

That should stay in there a while without needing to drill a hole at all.

This was discussed earlier in this thread as well. I believe that the grease would not stay in well especially when heated. Also, since it is not perfectly sealed, the grease will get fouled with other junk that you don't want in there (salt perhaps?)

-Troy

[zukster]

I believe that the grease would not stay in well especially when heated. Also, since it is not perfectly sealed, the grease will get fouled with other junk that you don't want in there (salt perhaps?)-Troy

Maybe it wouldn't stay in indefinitely, but I bet it would last a while. And as far as "the grease will get fouled with other junk" - Well that
other junk will get in there anyway. I can only see the grease help by isolating the junk from the halls and stuff.

The grease does thin out a bit when it gets hot. That should help spread it around when the motor is running.

With a little hole and a dielectric spray, you still have to deal with the junk issue anyway.

I don't mind opening the motor say every six months to clean it (at the very most). Any more than that and I might
as well start driving my car again. It seems like it takes me less time to maintain it

Anyway - I'm going to try packing with grease. Bookmark this thread and check back in several months. I'll post
an update of how well it worked.

[grindz145]

The problem is that the grease makes it so hard to clean as well as trap moisture. Someone said earlier that the only way to deal with the salt etc is to clean it, and the grease would make it very hard to clean. I can see their point. Packing the hub with grease was what I wanted to do originally though and I would love to see it work out. Be sure to give us an update and some pictures of you riding in the snow Ill do the same

[Affliction]

I just read that Wurth Film is a silicone dielectric spray.

That gives me the idea of opening up my motor, packing it with silicone dielectric grease ,
the closing it up to lock it in. Its pretty cheap at Canadian Tire, or I wouldn't consider it.
7 dollars for a 85 gram tube of Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up grease, which I verified is
silicon based.

That should stay in there a while without needing to drill a hole at all.

You guys just don't get it do you? Wurth film is not a silicone or is it dielectric.
It is a pure base petrolium which coats and adheres to metal surfaces to prevent corrosion long term.
It is semi fluid which means it flows SLOWLY but never solidifys. Ideal product for hub motors.

7 dollars for a 85 gram tube of Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up grease

is totally useless unless you are methods and your hub generates 100 degrees+ celcius of heat to melt it to liquid. Can you boil water on your hub motor during the winter?
Dieelectric grease won't do shit!
This is a product you can get at crappy tire that will perform the task properly. http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4 ... BSpray.jsp
Or this shit is alot better and close to the properties of what I use. http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4 ... ention.jsp

That should stay in there a while without needing to drill a hole at all

The hole is ideal for periodic maintenace without dissasembling your bike.

[zukster]

Wurth film is not a silicone or is it dielectric.It is a pure base petrolium which coats and adheres to metal surfaces to prevent corrosion long term. It is semi fluid which means it flows SLOWLY but never solidifys. Ideal product for hub motors.

When I Googled "Wurth Film," this is what came up first and I thought it was what you meant:

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Wurth-Wurth-Silicone-Spray-Grease-500ml-Spray-Can-10767.htm

I'll look harder for "Wurth Film," as it does sound ideal from your description. The ACF-50 looks like it would
work the same way according to the page http://www.allyearbiker.co.uk/Bike_Protection/ACF50.html
on the UK Biker page posted.

Is the "Fluid Film" from Canadian Tire the same kind of thing? I think that the
staying semi liquid being one the the key things, and the page does not mention that.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/3/AutoFluidsChemicals/LubricantsPenetrants/PRDOVR~0381567P/Fluid%2BFilm%2BRust%2Band%2BCorrosion%2BPrevention.jsp

I somehow missed Page 1 of this thread and note that Drunkskunk brought up some concerns I had as well
regarding packing the hub with grease:

problems I see are:
The break down of the insulation and glue due to the solvent action of the grease

I don't think the Permatex Silicone Dielectric Grease has solvents in it.

Friction caused by the grease viscosity acting on the airgap. Oil is a lube only when the viscosity is overcome, untill then it sticks things together pretty well. The airgap is so small, and grease is so well effective against shearing, that it would be difficult to spin the motor efficently.

This is certainly a concern depending on how bad the shear force is.

Weight. it woudl take a couple pounds of grease to fill one of these things.

Not the little Bafang anyway. I've had it open and it wouldn't take that much.

and last of all, Leaks. Grease is a fluid, more so when hot. if the seals can't keep water out, they can't keep the oils from the grease in. This bike would leak more than an MG, and sling grease as the tire spun.

And this I'm not sure about. I'm not sure how hot before it turns fluid. I thought my normal hill abuse around
here where it feels warm by touch would do it (as it does for other grease). But I'm not sure about the Permatex
Silicone Dielectric stuff.

Affliction says it would have to be hotter than I thought:

Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up grease...is totally useless unless you are methods and your hub generates 100 degrees+ celcius of heat to melt it to liquid.

So I'll probably go with one of the Spray Films that stay semi-liquid, all-things-considered.

I just might heat up some of the Permatex Dielectric just to see exactly when it liquefies. Now I gotta know

[Affliction]

zuckster you have a bafang; I had to look it up. As it's a geared hub then you need something that will keep the gears greased.
Disregard my crappy tire suggestions for your application. They were good for direct drive hub motors.
http://www.wurthcanada.com/ Contact them, I'm sure there is a distributor in your area and you can buy a can of Wurth Film.
They ship by purolator right to your home. I've tried many types of lubes because I work at a transmission shop and this stuff is on the shelf.
This stuff is like grease yet still fluid and it doesn't wash off in water spray! I even have an E-bike shop using it to lube hub motors after repair and they now swear by it because it prevents so many hall sensor failure comebacks. http://www.ridemore.ca

[zukster]

zuckster you have a bafang; I had to look it up. As it's a geared hub then you need something that will keep the gears greased.
Disregard my crappy tire suggestions for your application. They were good for direct drive hub motors.
http://www.wurthcanada.com/ Contact them, I'm sure there is a distributor in your area and you can buy a can of Wurth Film.
They ship by purolator right to your home. I've tried many types of lubes because I work at a transmission shop and this stuff is on the shelf.
This stuff is like grease yet still fluid and it doesn't wash off in water spray! I even have an E-bike shop using it to lube hub motors after repair and they now swear by it because it prevents so many hall sensor failure comebacks. http://www.ridemore.ca

Thanks for the tips. I'll get some.

[Julez]

All these fancy anti-corrosion sprays pretty much consinst of the same thing, which is penetrating oil. Get a cheap can from eBay, or any hardware store.
I gave my Crystalyte stator a really good spray from all sides, so that it was dripping wet all the way through.
When I reassembled my motor, I applied isobutyl caoutchouc all over the flanges. It is a messy black goo, which has the advantage of staying messy. It does not dry out, it always keeps its pasty state.
This way, no water can enter here.

[zukster]

All these fancy anti-corrosion sprays pretty much consinst of the same thing, which is penetrating oil. Get a cheap can from eBay, or any hardware store.
I gave my Crystalyte stator a really good spray from all sides, so that it was dripping wet all the way through.
When I reassembled my motor, I applied isobutyl caoutchouc all over the flanges. It is a messy black goo, which has the advantage of staying messy. It does not dry out, it always keeps its pasty state.
This way, no water can enter here.

From what I gather the Wurth Film is not a penetrating oil. Penetrating oils have solvents and they also evaporate after a while.
The isobutyl caoutchouc sounds good for the hub motor cap.

[Julez]

Yes, it appears you are right.
The Würth stuff seems to be a little more than just penetrating oil.
But I just stumbled across somehting else:
Mike Sanders' anti-corrosion grease.
This stuff seems to be the holy grail when it comes to protecting cars and oldtimers from corrosion.
http://mike.british-cars.de/rustprevention.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... e&ie=UTF-8
Actually, we might have an advantage over the car guys: Our motors are small. The grease is supposed to be heated to 120°C, and then sprayed onto the metal, or into the body cavities of a car.
I suspect, that we could simply brush enough of it on our stators, and put them into the oven for a short time, which will make the grease penetrate all the small gaps everywhere.

[John in CR]

I'd just paint the iron part of the stator with a good hard epoxy paint or brush on a thin layer of epoxy. That or wipe on some rust preventative dielectric oil or grease. There's no way I'd put any significant amount of any liquid in my hub motors. It might be great for cooling, but think about that stuff sloshing or flowing around those skinny ass hall sensor wires, or hall sensor boards. Plus it's not like gears in an oil bath in a transmission or differential. The air gap seems too small for any fluid much more viscous that air not to be a problem.

John

[zukster]

http://www.wurthcanada.com/ Contact them, I'm sure there is a distributor in your area and you can buy a can of Wurth Film.
They ship by purolator right to your home. I've tried many types of lubes because I work at a transmission shop and this stuff is on the shelf.
This stuff is like grease yet still fluid and it doesn't wash off in water spray! I even have an E-bike shop using it to lube hub motors after repair and they
now swear by it because it prevents so many hall sensor failure comebacks. http://www.ridemore.ca

Hey Affliction (Is that your real name ? ), when I emailed wurth re they wrote,

Unfortunately we do not sell to the retail sector. Our packaging is not consumer labeled.

Preston Emerson
District Sales Manager GVA-C1

Wurth Canada Limited
http://www.wurthcanada.com

Email: pemerson@wurth.ca

Where did you get yours from? Maybe they'll ship here too.

I'd rather have this shushing around in my hub than rusty water. Vancouver is also known as the Lower Rain Land.
If it was not 24/7 of rain here for weeks on end, I'd just stick with the grease, as John in CR suggests. Also, this is
for a motor that is being run by a sensorless controller, because the halls shorted out. So no worries about those
pesky little wires in this case.

[Affliction]

Hey Affliction (Is that your real name ? ), when I emailed wurth re they wrote,

Unfortunately we do not sell to the retail sector. Our packaging is not consumer labeled.

Preston Emerson
District Sales Manager GVA-C1

Wurth Canada Limited
http://www.wurthcanada.com

Email: pemerson@wurth.ca

Where did you get yours from? Maybe they'll ship here too.

I'd rather have this shushing around in my hub than rusty water. Vancouver is also known as the Lower Rain Land.
If it was not 24/7 of rain here for weeks on end, I'd just stick with the grease, as John in CR suggests. Also, this is
for a motor that is being run by a sensorless controller, because the halls shorted out. So no worries about those
pesky little wires in this case.

Ahh K, I don't have this issue I work in commecial. Juergen at ridemore.ca was able to set up his own account with them.
Maybe Justin at ebikes.ca can get you some since you're in Vancouver.
You're lucky you just have to deal with rain; I ride 365 days a year and the winters here are the worst because the roads are always a slushy overly-roadsalted mess!
One salty ride and an unprotected e-bike can quit within minutes! Needless to say I have alot of experience keeping my bike going in the winter, good thing I have 2 motors on it; backup when 1 fails.
One other thing I do to my bike because of the salt water is protect the controllers. I've killed a half dozen so far from the salt water shorting out the mosfets.
I've found the solution to this as well by spraying the controller board with Ignition Protector and this is avaliable at Canadian Tire. It coats the board and all components in a permanent plastic film.
Don't spray connectors with this! You'll never be able to unplug them again because they are glued solid! I showed Justin some of this stuff when he was in Ottawa on his cross Canada ride.
Now for the 3rd part of the puzzle. The 5 pin hall connector plugs and the throttle plugs; I use a product primarily used to flush transmission cooler lines to clean and protect these connections.
It is made by International Lubricants (LubeGard) and is called Kooler Kleen. It's other two uses as advertised by the company are to clean wire harnesses and finally to act as a dielectric protectant.
It is an exceptionally good non-aquious cleaner (no water) and it leaves a fine film of dielectric protection once dry. Perfect for low voltage connections. Dielectric grease is too messy in my opinion to be used on a bike.
As this stuff is primarily a cleaner there is no real lubricant properties and it doesn't creep because it dries. So it's no good for the inside of a hub motor; I tried
One sign of a lubricant to be usefull is it's ability to be hydrophobic. Conventional penetrating oils and most motor and transmission oils mix easilly with water.
You need a lube that actively repells water. Do your own testing if you don't believe me
Ben from Ottawa....