Improved Weatherproofing Idea

[Affliction]

I just read that Wurth Film is a silicone dielectric spray.

That gives me the idea of opening up my motor, packing it with silicone dielectric grease ,
the closing it up to lock it in. Its pretty cheap at Canadian Tire, or I wouldn't consider it.
7 dollars for a 85 gram tube of Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up grease, which I verified is
silicon based.

That should stay in there a while without needing to drill a hole at all.

You guys just don't get it do you? Wurth film is not a silicone or is it dielectric.
It is a pure base petrolium which coats and adheres to metal surfaces to prevent corrosion long term.
It is semi fluid which means it flows SLOWLY but never solidifys. Ideal product for hub motors.

7 dollars for a 85 gram tube of Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up grease

is totally useless unless you are methods and your hub generates 100 degrees+ celcius of heat to melt it to liquid. Can you boil water on your hub motor during the winter?
Dieelectric grease won't do shit!
This is a product you can get at crappy tire that will perform the task properly. http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4 ... BSpray.jsp
Or this shit is alot better and close to the properties of what I use. http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4 ... ention.jsp

That should stay in there a while without needing to drill a hole at all

The hole is ideal for periodic maintenace without dissasembling your bike.

[zukster]

Wurth film is not a silicone or is it dielectric.It is a pure base petrolium which coats and adheres to metal surfaces to prevent corrosion long term. It is semi fluid which means it flows SLOWLY but never solidifys. Ideal product for hub motors.

When I Googled "Wurth Film," this is what came up first and I thought it was what you meant:

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Wurth-Wurth-Silicone-Spray-Grease-500ml-Spray-Can-10767.htm

I'll look harder for "Wurth Film," as it does sound ideal from your description. The ACF-50 looks like it would
work the same way according to the page http://www.allyearbiker.co.uk/Bike_Protection/ACF50.html
on the UK Biker page posted.

Is the "Fluid Film" from Canadian Tire the same kind of thing? I think that the
staying semi liquid being one the the key things, and the page does not mention that.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/4/Auto/3/AutoFluidsChemicals/LubricantsPenetrants/PRDOVR~0381567P/Fluid%2BFilm%2BRust%2Band%2BCorrosion%2BPrevention.jsp

I somehow missed Page 1 of this thread and note that Drunkskunk brought up some concerns I had as well
regarding packing the hub with grease:

problems I see are:
The break down of the insulation and glue due to the solvent action of the grease

I don't think the Permatex Silicone Dielectric Grease has solvents in it.

Friction caused by the grease viscosity acting on the airgap. Oil is a lube only when the viscosity is overcome, untill then it sticks things together pretty well. The airgap is so small, and grease is so well effective against shearing, that it would be difficult to spin the motor efficently.

This is certainly a concern depending on how bad the shear force is.

Weight. it woudl take a couple pounds of grease to fill one of these things.

Not the little Bafang anyway. I've had it open and it wouldn't take that much.

and last of all, Leaks. Grease is a fluid, more so when hot. if the seals can't keep water out, they can't keep the oils from the grease in. This bike would leak more than an MG, and sling grease as the tire spun.

And this I'm not sure about. I'm not sure how hot before it turns fluid. I thought my normal hill abuse around
here where it feels warm by touch would do it (as it does for other grease). But I'm not sure about the Permatex
Silicone Dielectric stuff.

Affliction says it would have to be hotter than I thought:

Permatex Dielectric Tune-Up grease...is totally useless unless you are methods and your hub generates 100 degrees+ celcius of heat to melt it to liquid.

So I'll probably go with one of the Spray Films that stay semi-liquid, all-things-considered.

I just might heat up some of the Permatex Dielectric just to see exactly when it liquefies. Now I gotta know

[Affliction]

zuckster you have a bafang; I had to look it up. As it's a geared hub then you need something that will keep the gears greased.
Disregard my crappy tire suggestions for your application. They were good for direct drive hub motors.
http://www.wurthcanada.com/ Contact them, I'm sure there is a distributor in your area and you can buy a can of Wurth Film.
They ship by purolator right to your home. I've tried many types of lubes because I work at a transmission shop and this stuff is on the shelf.
This stuff is like grease yet still fluid and it doesn't wash off in water spray! I even have an E-bike shop using it to lube hub motors after repair and they now swear by it because it prevents so many hall sensor failure comebacks. http://www.ridemore.ca

[zukster]

zuckster you have a bafang; I had to look it up. As it's a geared hub then you need something that will keep the gears greased.
Disregard my crappy tire suggestions for your application. They were good for direct drive hub motors.
http://www.wurthcanada.com/ Contact them, I'm sure there is a distributor in your area and you can buy a can of Wurth Film.
They ship by purolator right to your home. I've tried many types of lubes because I work at a transmission shop and this stuff is on the shelf.
This stuff is like grease yet still fluid and it doesn't wash off in water spray! I even have an E-bike shop using it to lube hub motors after repair and they now swear by it because it prevents so many hall sensor failure comebacks. http://www.ridemore.ca

Thanks for the tips. I'll get some.

[Julez]

All these fancy anti-corrosion sprays pretty much consinst of the same thing, which is penetrating oil. Get a cheap can from eBay, or any hardware store.
I gave my Crystalyte stator a really good spray from all sides, so that it was dripping wet all the way through.
When I reassembled my motor, I applied isobutyl caoutchouc all over the flanges. It is a messy black goo, which has the advantage of staying messy. It does not dry out, it always keeps its pasty state.
This way, no water can enter here.

[zukster]

All these fancy anti-corrosion sprays pretty much consinst of the same thing, which is penetrating oil. Get a cheap can from eBay, or any hardware store.
I gave my Crystalyte stator a really good spray from all sides, so that it was dripping wet all the way through.
When I reassembled my motor, I applied isobutyl caoutchouc all over the flanges. It is a messy black goo, which has the advantage of staying messy. It does not dry out, it always keeps its pasty state.
This way, no water can enter here.

From what I gather the Wurth Film is not a penetrating oil. Penetrating oils have solvents and they also evaporate after a while.
The isobutyl caoutchouc sounds good for the hub motor cap.

[Julez]

Yes, it appears you are right.
The Würth stuff seems to be a little more than just penetrating oil.
But I just stumbled across somehting else:
Mike Sanders' anti-corrosion grease.
This stuff seems to be the holy grail when it comes to protecting cars and oldtimers from corrosion.
http://mike.british-cars.de/rustprevention.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... e&ie=UTF-8
Actually, we might have an advantage over the car guys: Our motors are small. The grease is supposed to be heated to 120°C, and then sprayed onto the metal, or into the body cavities of a car.
I suspect, that we could simply brush enough of it on our stators, and put them into the oven for a short time, which will make the grease penetrate all the small gaps everywhere.

[John in CR]

I'd just paint the iron part of the stator with a good hard epoxy paint or brush on a thin layer of epoxy. That or wipe on some rust preventative dielectric oil or grease. There's no way I'd put any significant amount of any liquid in my hub motors. It might be great for cooling, but think about that stuff sloshing or flowing around those skinny ass hall sensor wires, or hall sensor boards. Plus it's not like gears in an oil bath in a transmission or differential. The air gap seems too small for any fluid much more viscous that air not to be a problem.

John

[zukster]

http://www.wurthcanada.com/ Contact them, I'm sure there is a distributor in your area and you can buy a can of Wurth Film.
They ship by purolator right to your home. I've tried many types of lubes because I work at a transmission shop and this stuff is on the shelf.
This stuff is like grease yet still fluid and it doesn't wash off in water spray! I even have an E-bike shop using it to lube hub motors after repair and they
now swear by it because it prevents so many hall sensor failure comebacks. http://www.ridemore.ca

Hey Affliction (Is that your real name ? ), when I emailed wurth re they wrote,

Unfortunately we do not sell to the retail sector. Our packaging is not consumer labeled.

Preston Emerson
District Sales Manager GVA-C1

Wurth Canada Limited
http://www.wurthcanada.com

Email: pemerson@wurth.ca

Where did you get yours from? Maybe they'll ship here too.

I'd rather have this shushing around in my hub than rusty water. Vancouver is also known as the Lower Rain Land.
If it was not 24/7 of rain here for weeks on end, I'd just stick with the grease, as John in CR suggests. Also, this is
for a motor that is being run by a sensorless controller, because the halls shorted out. So no worries about those
pesky little wires in this case.

[Affliction]

Hey Affliction (Is that your real name ? ), when I emailed wurth re they wrote,

Unfortunately we do not sell to the retail sector. Our packaging is not consumer labeled.

Preston Emerson
District Sales Manager GVA-C1

Wurth Canada Limited
http://www.wurthcanada.com

Email: pemerson@wurth.ca

Where did you get yours from? Maybe they'll ship here too.

I'd rather have this shushing around in my hub than rusty water. Vancouver is also known as the Lower Rain Land.
If it was not 24/7 of rain here for weeks on end, I'd just stick with the grease, as John in CR suggests. Also, this is
for a motor that is being run by a sensorless controller, because the halls shorted out. So no worries about those
pesky little wires in this case.

Ahh K, I don't have this issue I work in commecial. Juergen at ridemore.ca was able to set up his own account with them.
Maybe Justin at ebikes.ca can get you some since you're in Vancouver.
You're lucky you just have to deal with rain; I ride 365 days a year and the winters here are the worst because the roads are always a slushy overly-roadsalted mess!
One salty ride and an unprotected e-bike can quit within minutes! Needless to say I have alot of experience keeping my bike going in the winter, good thing I have 2 motors on it; backup when 1 fails.
One other thing I do to my bike because of the salt water is protect the controllers. I've killed a half dozen so far from the salt water shorting out the mosfets.
I've found the solution to this as well by spraying the controller board with Ignition Protector and this is avaliable at Canadian Tire. It coats the board and all components in a permanent plastic film.
Don't spray connectors with this! You'll never be able to unplug them again because they are glued solid! I showed Justin some of this stuff when he was in Ottawa on his cross Canada ride.
Now for the 3rd part of the puzzle. The 5 pin hall connector plugs and the throttle plugs; I use a product primarily used to flush transmission cooler lines to clean and protect these connections.
It is made by International Lubricants (LubeGard) and is called Kooler Kleen. It's other two uses as advertised by the company are to clean wire harnesses and finally to act as a dielectric protectant.
It is an exceptionally good non-aquious cleaner (no water) and it leaves a fine film of dielectric protection once dry. Perfect for low voltage connections. Dielectric grease is too messy in my opinion to be used on a bike.
As this stuff is primarily a cleaner there is no real lubricant properties and it doesn't creep because it dries. So it's no good for the inside of a hub motor; I tried
One sign of a lubricant to be usefull is it's ability to be hydrophobic. Conventional penetrating oils and most motor and transmission oils mix easilly with water.
You need a lube that actively repells water. Do your own testing if you don't believe me
Ben from Ottawa....

[zukster]

Maybe Justin at ebikes.ca can get you some since you're in Vancouver.
I've found the solution to this as well by spraying the controller board with Ignition Protector and this is avaliable at Canadian Tire.
It coats the board and all components in a permanent plastic film.
Don't spray connectors with this! You'll never be able to unplug them again because they are glued solid
I showed Justin some of this stuff when he was in Ottawa on his cross Canada ride. Ben from Ottawa....

I've kinda bugged Justin a lot as of late, but maybe he'd want to try it for some of their motors too. For the controller
boards I got some MGChemicals Silicone Conformal Coating spray, but its pretty much the same thing as the CT
Ignition Protector spray. I've used it on my car. Good too know the CT stuff works. Its prob a lot cheaper. The MG
stuff was 18 bucks for a 340/12oz can. So you have not needed to pot the controller after spraying? That would be
the next ultimate step. I might try to spec out something similar to that Wurth Film that's easier to find. Maybe
that ACF-50 that was mentioned above.

edit: The ACF-50 looks to be mainly sold in the UK. It might even be Wurth Film (or similar) branded for resale.

[John in CR]

I'd rather have this shushing around in my hub than rusty water. Vancouver is also known as the Lower Rain Land.
If it was not 24/7 of rain here for weeks on end, I'd just stick with the grease, as John in CR suggests. Also, this is
for a motor that is being run by a sensorless controller, because the halls shorted out. So no worries about those
pesky little wires in this case.

Epoxy paint on the steel and some drain holes at the perimeter then. Once I go sensorless, then I'll definitely go nicely ventilated too, with some way to prevent debris entering at the intake. Angled exhaust vents will prevent debris entering there and force water out immediately. For a motor expecting lots of rain use, I'd limit the exhaust/drain vents to very narrow slits so as little muddy water enters as possible.

Once you accept that water is likely to get in, then you just want to protect the steel from rust, and give the water a way out too. I wish I didn't have halls to worry about.

John

[Affliction]

Epoxy paint on the steel and some drain holes at the perimeter then. Once I go sensorless, then I'll definitely go nicely ventilated too, with some way to prevent debris entering at the intake. Angled exhaust vents will prevent debris entering there and force water out immediately. For a motor expecting lots of rain use, I'd limit the exhaust/drain vents to very narrow slits so as little muddy water enters as possible.

Once you accept that water is likely to get in, then you just want to protect the steel from rust, and give the water a way out too. I wish I didn't have halls to worry about.

John

Where is CR John? Definitely not in Canada that's for sure. Ventillating a hub motor for daily road use in Canadian conditions is a definate NO-NO!
It's not mud but road salt that is a real concern up here in the great white north! Wait till July and bring your skiis LOL!
Paint will only do so much, Salt water will destroy everything in a hub motor regardless of paint. Also there are too many areas in a hub motor that you can't paint that a fluid lube makes alot more sence. As far as the claim that shear forces will reduce the performance of the motor, I claim BULLSHIT! There is no direct mechanical contact between the stator and the hub magnets and the gap is too great for any noticeable effect.
Rust will definitely fill this gap tho and if your motor isn't siezed, it will scrape and grind for a bit!
There is absolutely no need to ventillate a hub motor if you are using it within it's design parameters! Especially not if it's -20 celcius outside!
With that temp there is a much greater risk of your hub locking solid from the moisture when you park your bike for ten minutes.
A ventillated hub would be frocked immediately! Been there, done that
I've been riding for too many Canadian winters to let American know-it-alls call the shots.
The hot and cold cycles are too extreme for any sealing method to prevent moisture buildup.
It's pointless to try and stop water getting in so the real goal is preventing it from having any effect.
John, your hub would be locked solid in the first week riding here! Stop at a store ten minutes and your hub is frozen solid!
Ben from Ottawa....

[grindz145]

Maybe Justin at ebikes.ca can get you some since you're in Vancouver.
I've found the solution to this as well by spraying the controller board with Ignition Protector and this is avaliable at Canadian Tire.
It coats the board and all components in a permanent plastic film.
Don't spray connectors with this! You'll never be able to unplug them again because they are glued solid
I showed Justin some of this stuff when he was in Ottawa on his cross Canada ride. Ben from Ottawa....

I've kinda bugged Justin a lot as of late, but maybe he'd want to try it for some of their motors too. For the controller
boards I got some MGChemicals Silicone Conformal Coating spray, but its pretty much the same thing as the CT
Ignition Protector spray. I've used it on my car. Good too know the CT stuff works. Its prob a lot cheaper. The MG
stuff was 18 bucks for a 340/12oz can. So you have not needed to pot the controller after spraying? That would be
the next ultimate step. I might try to spec out something similar to that Wurth Film that's easier to find. Maybe
that ACF-50 that was mentioned above.

edit: The ACF-50 looks to be mainly sold in the UK. It might even be Wurth Film (or similar) branded for resale.

I plan on using ACF 50 on my motorcycle this winter as well. I think this may be a good bet on the hub motor as well. I still like the small hole idea for re-spraying whatever the corrosion inhibiting agent may be.

[John in CR]

Affliction,

Yes I had a brain fart and forgot the salty water you guy have to deal with on the road, and I wouldn't use a ventilated one for my beach riding here, which is pretty similar conditions. Didn't someone come up with a removable yet secure plug for draining and airing the motors out. On covers of the larger of my hubmotors the flanges at the axle are nearly 1" thick. On the interior is a big sealed bearing, and on the exterior is a rubber seal that has some kind of spring to ensure a reasonable seal at the axle. The seal gets some grease, and the notch in the axle for wire entry gets silicone. I've put at least 200 miles of beach riding right at the water's edge including crossing small streams with water nearly up to the motor. With a drip loop on my wiring harness, I've never had a drop of water in there. Most of my focus has been making sure no salty water gets to my battery pack instead of the motor. Maybe I've just been lucky.

John

[Affliction]

It is superior anti-corrosion compound.
It kills corrosion in progress
It prevents new corrosion cells from forming for 12-18 months
It is an excellent penetrant.
It is an excellent light lubricant.

This is good shit!
If you can get this stuff then it has the same properties of Wurth Film.
All I see while searching this is websites in the UK.
I'd definately use it if it was availabe in Canukistan
Lube, corrosion, and penetrating.... all properties you want to protect your hub motor from the elements..
This is probably the same stuff rebranded! The wurth film has actually stopped all rust on my unpainted kickstand mount!
The mount has direct spray from the rear tire and none of the protection has washed off.

[rguy56]

There's no beach in the world that would compare to the "Rust belt".

If you've never heard the term "rust belt" it has to do with the freeze/thaw cycle that makes the salting of roads reasonable because salt will keep the freezing point of water slightly higher than if it were unadulterated.

I think you only have to look as far as the resale values of cars around the continent to see what the rust belt means. For me, I'd take Ben's advice on this thread...

Bob

[dequinox]

We used to use a product called "Iron-clad" which was a spray-on compound in a can meant to protect shafts and bearing sheaves from surface rust to keep them looking nice. I imagine it could be applied to the interior components...

[zukster]

I plan on using ACF 50 on my motorcycle this winter as well. I think this may be a good bet on the hub motor as well. I still like the small hole idea for re-spraying whatever the corrosion inhibiting agent may be.

I really like the small hole idea to, but I'm going to open up my hub that's going on six months before
I decide for sure. I don't have any anti-corrosive film yet, so for the hub I just repaired with the bad hall
sensors for use with a sensorless controller, what I've done is

- Greased the gears and metal pieces that spin and rub.
- On the inside of the hub where the axle posts stick out, I've applied a good dose of grease to both sides,
to in theory, keep the water out a little while longer.
- Silicone RTV'd the hole where the wires exit the axle.
- Silicone II'ed the screw on cap to seal out the water.

GE Silicone II is just a neutral curing Indoor/Outdoor Silicone Caulking material. Its not as hard
as RTV so I might be able to get the cap of later (maybe).

I'll open this up in a couple of months and after I have acquired some anti-corrosive film spray, then
I'll redo with a small hole and the spray if it needs it.

[zukster]

I'd definately use it if it was availabe in Canukistan

I think these guys ship to Canada from the US and seem to have resonable price. 14 bucks for 13 oz. spray.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/acf50.php

they have a store in Brantford, Ont, that you can prob order from. I've emailed their main US site
regarding shipping as they may just have it shipped from Brantford anyway.

[zukster]

No one is getting back to me from above.

Does anyone have any suggestion on alternative products with the same properties or close.

Maybe something a little more common and available around town?

[grindz145]

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/acf50.php

This place is out of GA/CA, I didn't see anything about shipping internationally but I don't imagine over the border to Canada would be a problem. Give them a try maybe. I am going to order some myself. The salt has already started...

[Affliction]

No one is getting back to me from above.

Does anyone have any suggestion on alternative products with the same properties or close.

Maybe something a little more common and available around town?

You're not trying hard enough. Call the company and find the local sales rep for your area. These guys work on commission so they won't say no to a sale oportunity. You might have to pick your order up from one of their clients tho. Try calling auto body shops in your area because they frequently use Wurth Film to lubricate door hinges.
http://www.wurthcanada.com/en/contact.html
Company Information
Würth Canada Limited
6330 Tomken Road
Mississauga, Ontario, L5T 1N2



Telephone: (905) 564-6225
Toll Free Phone: 1-800-263-5002
Toll Free Fax: 1-800-347-0677
I.T. Pager 905-564-6225 x4848
1-800-263-5002 x4848

For inquiries about the website, please email webmaster@wurth.ca
For all other inquiries, please email info@wurth.ca

[zukster]

Wurth lost a customer. ACF-50 gained one. I called Spruce's Canada number in Brampton, Ontario and they
are couriering me a couple of 13 oz spray cans for 15 bucks each. You shouldn't have to push a company's
main office too hard to get the info I wanted.

Spruce's Bramton Canada number is 519-759-5017.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cspages/acf50.php

To order from the Canada web site, click Canada down on the left, the Search for ACF-50.
Its easier to phone them.

[Affliction]

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/ ... rmula-9086
By Michael Stenning
Products developed for use in the aerospace industry often translate very well to cycling and this is no exception. This is not a PTFE-based water displacer, rather it is designed to form an atmospheric seal against the elements which, it claims, remains effective for 12 months and kills corrosion on contact.

I applied a light application to a pair of SPD cleats sporting some surface corrosion. From the nozzle, ACF-50 is pinkish purple, but within a few minutes the mixture settles to a neutral hue and I was amazed to find the dirty brown corrosion on the cleats had apparently neutralised to a matt black.

While far thicker in viscosity than water displacement sprays, it lends itself better to corrosion prevention than lubrication, so isn't really a chain lube. But I have every confidence that, reapplied twice yearly, it should minimise chances of internal corrosion in frames, trailers and racks, and eliminate the need to drill out corroded SPD shoe fittings - even on bikes living in coastal regions.

Although £12 for a 369g aerosol might not seem particularly cheap, a little seems to go a long way.
Manufacturers description
Imagine a world without corrosion! Just think¿no rust, less maintenance, cleaner engines, greater reliability, higher residual machine value. How much easier things would be! Now imagine a highly sophisticated, non-toxic, active, thin film water-displacing compound. A compound with salt blockers and corrosion inhibitors that stays active for up to 12 months. A lubricant so advanced that it is approved for electrical components (40Kv dielectric yet NO electrical contact resistance). A product that will stop existing corrosion as well as preventing it from starting. A product that was developed to help jet aircraft stay airborne. As close to ZERO CORROSION as nature will allow.

While far thicker in viscosity than water displacement sprays, it lends itself better to corrosion prevention than lubrication, so isn't really a chain lube. But I have every confidence that, reapplied twice yearly, it should minimise chances of internal corrosion in frames, trailers and racks, and eliminate the need to drill out corroded SPD shoe fittings - even on bikes living in coastal regions.

I like the fact they say it coats thick but not good for chain lube? If acf-50 can't provide adequate lubrication then what good is it in a geared hub motor?