Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

[liveforphysics]

between having to be up so early for work and my healing dislocated left pointer finger, I'm not getting anything else done for a little while, probably. My left thumb still hasn't healed form whatever stressed the last (endmost) joint, either; I can't grip anything with it (so shifting on the front is jsut about impossible). Nothing hurts much unless I put any kind of stress on the joints, especially sideways movements or pulling types of stress. Then I see spots.

Codeine FTMFW.

[amberwolf]

Codeine FTMFW.

No argument, but I don't have any left. (I had some tylenol3 w/codeine I'd saved from a broken tooth extraction a few years ago, but ran out of that some months back when I almost broke my right pinky by being sick and dizzy, and falling towards an open doorway, reaching out to catch the jamb but missing with all but the pinky finger, putting my entire falling weight on that outstretched digit. That was very very unhappy.

Right now, all my fingers are doing a lot better, although that pinky still aches if I move it wrong (laterally especially) and so does the left thumb. Oddly the dislocated left index does not hurt much, unless I press it backwards fairly hard (lifting something really heavy, for instance), in the same direction the dislocation happened.

Very strange problem to diagnose when you've looked everything over and it's 'supposed' to run, but it just doesn't

Yep. When I first built the 2QD brushed controller, I had a long time diagnosing why it didn't work, because it *almost* did--it acted like the FET was shorted but it wasn't. Turned out to be a hairline whisker solder bridge grounding out the gate signal. I couldnt' even see it without a magnifier. So since the controller thought the FET was shorted, it was limiting current by cutting the PWM down to almost nothing (like maybe 1% or less), just like it should, even at max throttle. The throttle DID affect the PWM, just that it varied from 0 to less than 1%.

[amberwolf]

Found the sheet with yesterday's info:

To store:
0.995miles
16.1mph avg
23.7mph max (I think this was when I was trying to get into traffic entering Northern, where I have to go for a couple hundred feet to get to the store parking lot entrance)
49.47Vrest
40.4Vm
37.4Wh
0.879Ah
21.58Ap
910Wp
regen
0.9Wh
0.019Ah
8.21Ap
428Wp

Trip back home with about 35lbs of stuff. Mileage/speed is messed up because the cable came partly disconnected from the PDA and I didn't notice until maybe halfway thru the ride. Note that the path home is different from the path there, thru a number of twisty back streets, with foot traffic that appears unexpectedly in the middle of the road from between parked cars, so I can't go as fast as usual.
0.63miles
13.7MPH avg
19MPH max
48.65Vr
36.5Vm
36Wh
0.880Ah
872Wp
21.33Ap
regen
0.7Wh
0.015Ah
201Wp
4Ap

That low 49.47V resting voltage is wierd, as I had charged up the packs two nights before; I'm guessing that the long hard use on Saturday plus the sitting for a day after charging caused/allowed them to drop a lot more than usual.


Today's work commute (typical conditions/etc)
(forgot to write down each half of trip separately for PDA data)
5.151miles total
13.316mph avg
22.9mph peak (could be any of four or five places I have to accelerate into or thru traffic to get across lanes to the other side left turn, etc).
To work:
51.92V
43.15V
73.2Wh
1.568Ah
979Wp
21.57Ap
regen
1.1Wh
0.021Ah
359Wp
6.58Ap

Home:
50.78Vr
41.94Vm
78.8Wh
1.718Ah
938Wp
21.6Ap
regen
1.5Wh
0.03Ah
312Wp
5.19Ap

[amberwolf]

I started a troubleshooting thread for the 9C noise problem here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21826&start=0
as it is becoming worrisomely loud.

Just so the info is attached to this thread, I quoted it below, too (but don't answer here, answer in the other thread).

This may have been discussed before, but in almost 20 minutes of searching and skimming a bunch of threads via google and forum searches, I couldn't find anything quite like this one.

I've always had an odd sort of whine that happens in my 9c 2807 front hub, at any voltage/current/etc., between about 15-16MPH. Below or above that it doesn't do it, and it appears to only do it when it is powered, during either acceleration or deceleration (including coasting down thru that speed range). It happens whether I am pulling battery current or not (as monitored via watt meters), so even when the throttle is at a coasting setting so that it is not really applying power to the motor much but it is not decelerating it either, it still sounds the same.

I haven't been able to generate the noise when only pedalling down to that speed that I can remember. (I haven't tested it with the phase wires disconnected so that I could pedal up to that speed without using power; since the Lyen 6FET controller brakes to keep somewhere around 10-12MPH if no throttle is applied, I can't pedal hard enough to get beyond that speed without engaging the throttle).

I do not think it is controller-related, but I am about to test that with a different one in the next few days, as well as doing the above disconnected-phase wire test.

Now, that particular noise doesn't bother me, but it has started growing worse and different the lat couple of weeks or so.

Now it is a much more growly whine, and quite loud, and I can actually feel vibration thru the bars from it as of today. It does not *always* have the growly part or the vibration, just most of the time now. That part started intermittently and has grown much worse very quickly, after having disappeared completely for a few days or so first.

It appears to be more from the left side than the right, but it is difficult to tell while riding, and I also cannot tell while holding up the handlebars for testing stationary with wheel in air.

During stationary testing, it does not make even the original noise (maybe just a tiny bit, hard to tell for sure) if there is no load on the wheel. But if I engage the brakes a little, and increase throttle a bit to keep it at that 15-16MPH speed, it begins to make the noise. The harder I push the motor load-wise, the louder and more growly the noise becomes.

I will also be opening the hub up once I re-locate my chisels and paint scrapers to get thru the seal on the hub covers, and examining it for loose wiring bundles or perhaps a bearing problem; I'll post lots of pics once I do. This should happen in the next few days; I am supposed to get a week off from work starting this Saturday. I'd rather not start the teardown until that vacation starts.

Any ideas what might be the cause? Any specific info I should gather that would help?

I'll make a video of the stationary testing if it'll help, but the camera mic is not very sensitive, so I'll probably have to dig out my regular studio mics and recording equipment to get it across to would-be troubleshooting assistants.

[amberwolf]

Received the EVAssemble 36V 600W controller from Yopappamon today, and started a review thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=21830&start=0
This will be tested on DGA with the 9C 2807 front hub, powered by TVE's 36V 9Ah NiMH at first, then if I figure out it's safe to use with DGA's 48V 13Ah pack I'll try it with that, too (or modify it if necessary/possible). If I get the Thundersky 10s 60Ah pack built and testable with DGA, I'll try it with that to see what kind of power it will pull (since that can handle 60-120A, about 10x as much current as my NiMH packs).

Since I will have to change connectors on it or make adapters to my existing wiring, which will take some time, first I decided to do some picture reviews and note a few things about it's contruction/etc.

[novembersierra28]

Can we see some pictures? I want to see how you set up the wattmeter and where you put the switch

Received the EVAssemble 36V 600W controller from Yopappamon today,
Since I will have to change connectors on it or make adapters to my existing wiring, which will take some time, first I decided to do some picture reviews and note a few things about it's contruction/etc.

[amberwolf]

There will definitely be pictures, both here and in the review thread linked above.

As for the switch and wattmeter, they'll be the same as I have them above for the Lyen controller. I suppose that's not very clear from the pictures, but it is wired like this:

DGA basic wiring diagram 100110.PNG (16.03 KiB) Viewed 299 times

The fuses are not equal because I havent' run across my salvaged UPS fuses (to make them both 30A) but even though I've been drawing nearly 21A peaks pretty consistently, and just about 19-20A for nearly a minute here and there, the 20A fuse hasn't blown. That should tell people something about how to rate the fuses they are using to protect their packs and other stuff.

The meters are wired so that the discharge meter sources from the pack, and the regen meter sources from the controller.

I did forget one wire--there is a keyswitch wire on the controller that enables or disables the controller, but it doesn't remove power from it. I wired that directly to the switched side of pack positive, because I want to actually cut power off of the pack entirely, not just disable the controller, so I don't have to worry about accidentally leaving it "off" but still slowly draining the pack, or having some wierd failure short something out, or somebody go messing with the wiring and blow something up.

Ideally I'd have the keyswitch (or another one, separate) down on the cargo pod which is lockable, and contains the batteries, so that power is not even exiting the pod if the key is off. I haven't done that mostly for simplicity at the moment. I wanted a power-cutoff keyswitch right at the handlebars to cut power in case of smoke, fire, runaway stuck throttle + brake failure, etc., which although unlikely isn't impossible. Also because that's how the Fusin kit worked and I'm used to that.

If I ever got into a high-current setup that the keyswitch can't handle the power of, I'd use the key to switch a relay on and off, putting the relay down at the battery connections. I may eventually do that anyway, just because these keyswitches are not really made all that well and when they break I'll be using a computer-case keyswitch or similar to replace it--they can't carry even the amps needed for this setup, so would require a relay.

[novembersierra28]

Thanks, the diagram has helped me figure out how to build my 2nd ebike, it's going to be a 9continents 9 x 7 on the front of a full suspension bike with 14 x 24v NIMH packs in their plastic casing.(bike was free pulled off a skip,motor still hunting)

Runaways are my greatest fear thanks to my BIG error with brushed tech there's just no telling when that capacitor will blow... I read on 4qd about how high currents will inevitably damage the caps causing them to pop...so ever since then I've kept it at low speeds..(is there any way of knowing if a cap is on it's way out?)
What capacitors did you use when you mended your curtis brushed motor controller?
how long did your brushed controllers generally last irrelevant of driving style?
Is it true that, if you place an ammeter, this creates inductance down to the controller causing back EMF which kills the controller?

There will definitely be pictures, both here and in the review thread linked above.

Ideally I'd have the keyswitch (or another one, separate) down on the cargo pod which is lockable, and contains the batteries, so that power is not even exiting the pod if the key is off. I haven't done that mostly for simplicity at the moment. I wanted a power-cutoff keyswitch right at the handlebars to cut power in case of smoke, fire, runaway stuck throttle + brake failure, etc., which although unlikely isn't impossible. Also because that's how the Fusin kit worked and I'm used to that.

[amberwolf]

Runaways are my greatest fear thanks to my BIG error with brushed tech there's just no telling when that capacitor will blow...

Error?

I read on 4qd about how high currents will inevitably damage the caps causing them to pop...so ever since then I've kept it at low speeds..(is there any way of knowing if a cap is on it's way out?)

Only way is to test them periodically, which in general will require removal from the device they're in. You can visually check for swelling, but they're typically already toast by the time you can see any sort of failure. The test would be with a capacitance meter, or better yet a, LCR meter that can test them for capacitance and internal resistance (ESR). Off-the-shelf units that do this for large capacitors like a controller will have aren't cheap; the DIY versions could be done a lot cheaper but may require you to be able to program an MCU (not to write the program, but to flash a blank one).

I wouldn't really worry about it--the thing is really not so much the currents in the caps, in the enclosed controller case like the Curtis, but rather the heat from the FETs and having no airflow inside the controller, that adds wear to the caps even faster than the high currents. Keeping the controller case itself cool, with a good heatsink and fans, is the only practical way to deal with that in anything but totally dry weather. In dry weather, you could open both ends of the controller and stick a fan on one end, and that would help way more than just keeping the outside cool.

As for speeds, well, realistically whenever the controller is actively doing PWM (at lower throttle settings) instead of being at full throttle, it's more likely to be having high current flow in the caps. At full throttle the PWM shuts down and it just passes power thru all the time, so the caps aren't having to filter anything, really, and have just about no current flow. This is true of brushed controllers and probably of most brushless, too.

Also, at full throttle, you have less FET heating from switching, although more current in total passes thru the controller, less heat is usually developed within it.

What capacitors did you use when you mended your curtis brushed motor controller?

I didn't have to replace anything in there; it was just a bad solder joint (well, two or three, actually, between the control PCB and the power PCB).

When I fixed the ScootNGo controller, I tried out several caps; the best results were from photoflash caps out of old cameras.

With the 2QD controller, I forget what caps I tried in it, but I think one out of a high-wattage power supply from a laserprinter/copier was what I ended up with. Not sure now.

how long did your brushed controllers generally last irrelevant of driving style?

The only one I had major problems with was the ScootNGo controller, which started out quite fried, and I didnt' help it with my further experiments with various drives on this bike and others, leading up to the large FETs and drivers on separate external heatsink, with the v2.0.2 friction drive that worked great till I broke a motor shaft.
Most of the problems I had were me using the wrong kinds of FETs, with bad layouts and insufficient heatsinking.

I even moved the controller over to CrazyBike2 at first, and it worked well enough there until something damaged the op-amp chip at the heart of it, and I figured that replacing that op-amp was going to destroy the PCB since it had already been repaired so many times. I never did go back and fix it again.

Thats when I moved to the 2QD, and the only thing that failed on that was after the chain came off, jammed, tacoed the chainrings, pulled the wheel out of the dropouts, twisted and ripped apart some chain links, and then FINALLY the controller couldn't take it anymore and blew two FETs (of four). Given that I had a tiny tiny heatsink on there, I don't really blame them--at 153A, maybe 3500W? it was already taking way more than it was designed for.
http://electricle.blogspot.com/2009/12/ ... sible.html

Is it true that, if you place an ammeter, this creates inductance down to the controller causing back EMF which kills the controller?

Not that I am aware of, but it would depend on the meter and the wiring. If the meter installation requires adding a long loop of wire (a few feet, perhaps) up to the handlebars, that isn't normally there, then yes, it adds resistance and inductance. How much? Not a lot, but some. Enough to kill a controller? I guess that depends on the conditions. At high currents, a little inductance causes very large voltage spikes. At lower currents it matters less. The more switching that's going on (at lower throttles but higher loads), the worse these spikes will be.

If you have to loop the wire up there, I would recommend a twisted pair of wires (both pos and neg, even if you aren't using both of them for the meter) of equal length, and that will help cancel out some of the problem.

[novembersierra28]

I changed it to "and having people question why i haven't gone with brushless tech I just have no real way of telling when it's time to"

well, let's look on the bright side, I'm now off to build an LCR and possibly read up a ream on how to... so thanks for the advice on that

thing was I started reading on the failures of fets, I can think of a lot of consequences, and the consistency of this failure involving rebuilds for the curtis club car, these rebuilds were yearly..but then those controllers were moving over 200kg of car/passengersdaily for at least 2-4hrs of driving.(in comparison i am using theebike 5mins aday) so I figured I'd buy some caps and keep them safe for the day when I'd have to replace the fried curtis
Did your 410 have some spaces for extra mosfets / caps to upgrade it?
thanks

Runaways are my greatest fear thanks to my BIG error with brushed tech there's just no telling when that capacitor will blow...

Error?

If you have to loop the wire up there, I would recommend a twisted pair of wires (both pos and neg, even if you aren't using both of them for the meter) of equal length, and that will help cancel out some of the problem.

[amberwolf]

I changed it to "and having people question why i haven't gone with brushless tech I just have no real way of telling when it's time to"

When you find the need for the extra efficiency, and have the extra money for the more expensive motor and controller, is when it's time to change.

well, let's look on the bright side, I'm now off to build an LCR and possibly read up a ream on how to... so thanks for the advice on that

If I find the links I once had to some places that do this (some offer kits), I'll forward them to you. Don't hold your breath, though.

thing was I started reading on the failures of fets, I can think of a lot of consequences, and the consistency of this failure involving rebuilds for the curtis club car, these rebuilds were yearly..but then those controllers were moving over 200kg of car/passengersdaily for at least 2-4hrs of driving.(in comparison i am using theebike 5mins aday)

I strongly suspect those problems are from not having sufficient cooling, more than anything else. Keep in mind the curtis is laid out inside such that the FETs are mounted to bars of an upside-down L-shaped cross-section, and the FETs are on the vertical leg, with the horizontal leg of the bar bolted to the flat mounting side of the controller case (via those six countersunk bolts). There is a electrical (and thermal) insulator between the FETs and the L-bar, *and* another insulator (two, actually) between the L-bar and the outer case. Then in most installations I've seen pics of there is also another insulator between the case and the external heatsink (for those that actually use a heatsink).

That's a LOT of thermal insulation, so it takes a long time for the FET heat to make it to the outside world and radiate away. While it's still inside the controller, it cooks *everything* inside the case, caps, resistors, other ICs, etc. Even though they're all designed to take the heat, it still degrades their life expectancy significantly, compared to keeping them cooler.

Many controllers are made this same way, for high-power applications; it's just easier to do for assembly reasons, and also presents a bigger safety margin electrically in the case of an electrical short thru one of the insulators, to prevent any possibility of user-electric-shock, or of shorting to a battery wire or similar externally and causing a fire.

so I figured I'd buy some caps and keep them safe for the day when I'd have to replace the fried curtis

Unless you just need to have them, you might be better off waiting to get them till you actually need them. By then, you may not even use that controller.

Did your 410 have some spaces for extra mosfets / caps to upgrade it?

Yeah, I think only about 2/3 of it is populated. In theory it could do higher currents with them in there, but without better heat dissipation that'd still be only a short-term limit increase (a few minutes at most, probably less than that).

Realistically it would require replacing all the FETs at once, with the same batch of whatever you're going to use. It may also require adjusting stuff on the control PCB for the current-limiting auto-shutdown/etc. which I have no idea how to do yet. There is a partial reverse-engineering of a similar model at the Cafe Electric website, by Otmar, which might help.

[amberwolf]

I have been a bad boy and not noted down my usage data or charging data the last few days.

A short time ago, along with the new Turnigy Watt Meter, Rumped6 sent me a little bit of tool/parts money for things that would be cheaper to buy locally than ship/etc. So I've been pondering what to spend it on--things I really need but can't generally get used, of which I have a much longer list than this money will buy.

Today Harbor Freight had a "parking lot sale", where I perused everything in the store and finally concluded there were only two things I could really use. The first was an autodarkening welding helmet,
http://www.harborfreight.com/adjustable ... 46092.html

image_1203.gif (58.41 KiB) Viewed 399 times

at almost half price ($35). I had wanted one to leave my hands free but since I had a working visor I couldn't really justify the $60-$70 for one.

A little while back, I'd cracked the lens on the cheap handheld welding visor that came with the welder,

image_3945.gif (13.63 KiB) Viewed 396 times

right down the vertical center, essentially. Black tape over the crack kinda makes it wierd to use, and potentially dangerous if the tape came off while I was welding, so I figured I needed to replace it. Since I was doing so, I figured I should upgrade to a much easier-to-use one that would leave my hands free, too.

Now I just need to fix the "sticking" problem I have always had with the welder, but which has gotten bad enough now that it is very frustrating to do any welding--it stops feeding every 1/4" to 1/2" of bead I am trying to do, and I have to get take the end sleeve and electrode off and pull the wire out with needlenose. It also causes the electrodes to burn faster, because the wire sticks and then gets welded to the electrode face a bit sometimes, if I don't stop in time.

The second item is a set of three cheap padlocks
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-1- ... 40604.html

image_805.gif (51.06 KiB) Viewed 399 times

for $6 to replace the ones on the backyard gates that my crazy sister still has keys to, which she has left unlocked and open several times in the past few months, endangering the dogs. As I can't trust her not to do it again, I'd put a bike lock on one and other locks on the other two, but I need the bike lock (it's the best cable lock I have) and the other two locks were dollar-store junk I'd gotten a long time ago--sufficient to keep her from leaving them open, but not enough to keep anyone even slightly determined from doing it.

Now I can be a lot less stressed out that someone might open them and let the dogs out purposefully or accidentally. (I don't care nearly as much about the stuff back there as I do the dogs' safety, something I can't seem to get across to her).


A few bucks got me some red/white reflective tape stickers
http://www.harborfreight.com/10-piece-r ... 97562.html

image_3895.gif (118.02 KiB) Viewed 399 times

for the back of the cargo pod and stuff (just like the ones I already had from a friend used on the Kennel Trailer). (These I got on a previous visit.) I wanted to get just plain red but couldn't find any; the stuff I found at auto parts stores and the like cost more for less surface area of red than I got with these strips, and these also have the white half, so I went with them.

They will be used in a diagonal pattern along with some leftover lime-green reflective stuff a friend brought over a while back, which I have been trying to decide how to use. It will resemble a traffic barrier, and hopefully trigger the same "automatic" responses in drivers to avoid it.

I am also considering turning the Kennel Trailer's kennel around, so the open end is in front, and putting the same kind of markings on the back of it. I'll need to get more of both the lime and red reflective sticker, as there is only enough of the lime to do the one cargo pod or perhaps two of them, at most.


Now I need to find some inexpensive M5-sized bolts for the TS battery back cells....Lowe's, Home Depot, Ace, etc., all carry them but the cheapest I found would cost almost $20 for 20 bolts! So first I will recheck my salvage-hardware for more of them, before going out to buy any. They're the same ones used as brake-stud mounting bolts for V-brakes and the like, of which I have a few but they are mostly too long, and I'd rather save those for use on actual V-brakes.

I can't see spending more than a quarter on each bolt, max, and preferably less than that. If I looked hard, I could probably find 5 junked bikes with those kinds of bolts in them for not much more than $20 total, maybe $30, and then I would have a whole lot of usable stuff for that money, instead of just 20 little bolts.

[amberwolf]

Ok, so not unexpectedly, the Harbor Freight locks are complete crap:

DSC03404.JPG (52.76 KiB) Viewed 386 times

The tumbler just fell out as I was inserting the key (I had not even turned it yet!) on what *might* have been the 8th or 9th time I unlocked it.

I'll be taking the set back to them, and I guess I'll just go somewhere else and get Master locks, even if I can't find them in same-keyed sets like this. It'll probably be more like $8-$10 per lock, but I'm not going to waste more time on "security" that isn't even remotely secure.

In other news, I was working on the EVAssemble controller (see thread linked above) trying to determine the wiring, when my "spare" boxfan suddenly slowed down to about 1/3 speed or less and smelled very hot (it's the one right in front of my bathroom window AC unit, pulling the cold air from the unit into the rest of the bedroom, so it has no reason to be hot at all unless something is *seriously* wrong).

Opened it up and found a very charred spot on a winding, where for whatever reason it burned thru two coils of that part of the winding. Tried to take a pic but it won't focus on it for some reason. I'm guessing there was a long-standing insulation break there, probably from the factory, and slowly some of our conductive dust built up on it, along with enough moisture to allow it to arc across the windings, eventually burning thru them. Anyway, I can't fix that right now (if at all, without rewinding it), so I dug out the boxfan that died from being outside on the kluged-together window AC unit I had been using before.

As I expected, it has a thermal fuse in it, but unexpectedly it is only for 115F. 115F! For goodness sake, the AIR gets hotter than that here sometimes! The motor is a tiny little induction motor, very much like the one in a burned-up bench grinder someone gave me a while back for parts. Well, since it's going to be in front of the AC unit, then unless IT'S windings burn thru for some reason (which I wouldn't rule out), it shouldn't ever get above about 80F at most, especially now that summer is fading, finally. So I just removed the whole wiring for the thermal fuse and directly connected the wires it separates, fixing it for further use.

If I feel unsafe later, I'll dig the thermal fuse out of the burned-winding fan and stick it in the now-working one.

Back to putzing around with controllers....

[beast775]

i got taken by a bad lock buy also,was these great looking brass locks at the local hardware china made but heavy lookin and feel.well long story short i couldnt get it open the next day and needed my bicycle so a little fiddling and the whole tumbler came out .but was still locked?how the heck does that happen,needless to say i have great hacksaw blades and 5 minutes later no more lock.kind of defeats the purpose of a lock.

[amberwolf]

That's true. But even a decent padlock can be cut with a good hacksaw blade fairly quickly, and a cable lock with bolt cutters or shears or wire cutters, depending on thickness, coating, etc.

That said, a lock that falls apart is just totally pointless, unless you're looking for a gag gift.

I've had all sorts of problems with locks over the years, but almost all of them were wear and tear, and NONE of them ever just...disintegrated after owning them for less than a whole day!

[amberwolf]

That wierd 9C noise has gone away for the last several days, so like an idiot, I am leaving it alone until it does it again (at which point maybe it will just explode or something instead).

Rode around yesterday a little, about 10 miles worth, but didn't take much note of any data; was just having fun mostly. Got a cheapie used fork for the new cargo bike design, and maybe some rear shocks if I don't end up able to use the Manitou fork for that.

Today I went for some more groceries and stuff that's on sale right now, and ended up with so much (around 80-85lbs) that I had to wear the backpack and use my "new" (but quite used) folding bag for the rack. Pardon the distorted colors, the pic was too dark to see the black bag so I had to process it:

DSC03498.JPG (49.54 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

I should have brougth the trailer, but I hadn't planned on getting that much. There was just a lot of clearance and other stuff I didnt' want to miss out on, which saved me a bunch of money I won't have to spend later on regular priced versions.

DSC03499.JPG (33.12 KiB) Viewed 931 times

Whle riding I had the yellow vest (wadded up on the chair behind the white plastic in the first pic) wrapped around the bag to make me more visible, plus wearing another one (draped over the backpack as well as myself). Then the cargo pod was also full.

For cold stuff I couldn't fit into the insulated cargo pod, I wrapped in this metallized bubble-wrap saved from one of our live-plant deliveries at work. The empty bag that was on teh rack is at the far end of it in the pic.

DSC03500.JPG (41.27 KiB) Viewed 931 times

The bag flattened, folded, and zipped into itself for easy storage, along with the wrap folded up (whcih only packs down half as well as the bag) and sitting on the cargo pod lid.\

DSC03501.JPG (35.41 KiB) Viewed 1274 times

I don't have full data becuase I noted it all down in the PDA, but even though I just charged it two days ago, and have not used it but for a couple of hours yesterday, plus half an hour today, it died between the time I took it off the bike and the time I sat down to type this up. So all the data including actual speed and mileage/etc. is lost. I noted down what I remember of it, but that's not a lot.

The first part of the trip was just the usual to-work trip, so I could get my schedule for the week (couldn't get it by phone because there were too many customers for them to have time to tell me anytime soon, and I had to go up that way to the store anyway). That only took around 1.2Ah, as I wasnt' in any hurry so I only went 15-17MPH instead of the usual 20, and I was pedalling a little, since it is kinda nice out and I didnt' have to worry about being sweaty when I get to work, etc. That shaved about 0.3Ah off the usual amount. Typical 2.2 miles.

From work to the store was also kinda toodling along slower than usual, and pedalling a little, and it took about 27Wh. Negligible regen of something like 0.01Ah / 0.5Wh. This is around a mile.

From the store to home I only pedalled to help startups because of the really heavy load, but the rest I did at normal 17-20MPH speeds with just the motor. This is about 3.5 miles. It was something like 2.9Ah, but I can't even remember the Wh, maybe around 90? Regen I recall about 0.02Ah and about 1.1Wh.


The only really bad part of the trip was the crossing of 35th Avenue, which apparently they're about to resurface. They have roughened it all up so much on both north and southbound sides that it is like riding over 2" gravel and rock for the bumpiness, with even deeper ruts here and there, except for not skidding in it. It wasn't too bad going *to* Fry's with only part of my load picked up, but it was horrible coming back from it with the rest of my shopping load now on the bike.

I seriously thought my shoulders and spine were going to be ripped off, with some of the bumps, and I was just creeping along trying to keep from breaking anything in the deep grooves and stuff, having waited until there was no traffic coming for quite a ways in order to do it slowly like this.

Just before the trip, I had also just aired the tires up again, from the ~50PSI they'd dropped to back up to around 55-60PSI, which is what I have to use to keep from squiggling around on the road with such heavy loads. That didn't help a bit with the roughness on that part of the road.

[amberwolf]

The noise started back up on the wheel, and I had to retrue the rear wheel a bit, so I thought I'd real quick just true the rear and open the 9C to check it's bearings, etc.

Well, the truing went ok, didn't do it real well just a basic.

Didn't see or feel any bearing issues, nothing rubbing inside, no magnet/stator contact, etc.

Decided it would be interesting while I had it apart to try the GM stator in there form the Icecube57 9C/GM hybrid. That should be quick, too right? Just stick it in, bolt it on, wire it up and go? Well, that took a little longer because all combinations I tried (via spreadsheet) didnt' work, every one just juddered.

Figuring maybe I'd messed up the controller, I decided to put the 9C stator back in, and it too did the same. Dangit. PRobably fried controller.

Took the EVAssemble controller that I know worked with it, and it does run but not normally--it is REALLY rough and slow and will not keep going if I put my hand on the tire.

Great. Now I don't have any working motors/controllers that are setup on DGA, and the Fusin is half installed on TVE.

I went back thru all the combinations again on the EVAssemble controller and 9C as originally setup, with no luck. I think I killed the halls in both of the stators, maybe. Probably ESD since I was not grounded at all, and the dogs were wandering around occasionally brushing against me.

I'll have to test them with the LED tester tomorrow, but right now I'm gobbling some dinner while I type this, and then I need to try to sleep. If I can't sleep and I'm not so tired and out of it that I can't concentrate, I'll finish a basic hacked install of the Fusin on TVE so I can at least ride it to work tomorrow. Otherwise I'll have to just pop a regular front wheel on DGA so I can ride that one unpowered.

Dangit.

This is why I know I should never mess around with things that still work, cuz I end up breaking them.

[John in CR]

That's why on my main ebike I've never touched the motor since installation in Dec '08. The most I've done it to twice verify that the axle nuts were tight, once after about a week and once after a few months. These .5" dropouts aren't the clamping type, but the uneven surface of the dropout made from doubled up .25" steel combined toothed face of the nut and the tight fit on the axle have ensured they won't come loose.

I only recently went to regen braking, and just in time, because high speed braking requiring front and rear engagement for about 10k miles has finally worn out my rear brake shoes, so I can put off removing the wheel for a while longer. I need to get a couple more bike running first, and then decide what mods I'm going to make to Big Blue while I have her down for servicing.

Those 9c bearing are real crap, so definitely change those out while you have the motor open, and swap out those 16ga phase wires. Even at lower power they're pretty shotty and rated for only 22 max amps in chassis wiring and 3.7A for power transmission.

John

[amberwolf]

Thanks--I may just do the wire swapout.

Just before I finally passed out last night, I also noticed another possible issue with the covers themselves, which might be the source of the odd noise I have been hearing intermittently, but probably isn't. There is a circular defect in the outer side of the cover just about even with the machining line for the bearing recess on the inside of the cover.

It's really hard to see in pics, but I'll try:

DSC03513.JPG (50.65 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

I cant' really tell if it is a crack or what, but it feels like one and I do not remember it being there when I started out with this motor.
It is not a full circle, either. It gets "taller" at one side, and vanishes into the surface at the other, like a crescent moon.

DSC03514.JPG (23.69 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

DSC03516.JPG (29.79 KiB) Viewed 1241 times

DSC03517.JPG (23.24 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

.

I am so tired right now I have to take a nap, but will try to post more when I wake up later, before i go back to fixing the problem (if I can).

[John in CR]

That just looks like an imperfection in the machining from when they cut the holes for the bearings and the lip that locks into the magnet retaining ring. On both of my covers the cast aluminum blanks seemed to be mounted on the lathe slightly off center and/or the cast piece was of inconsistent thickness, which made both covers quite out of balance. I had to remove quite a bit of material to balance them. No imperfection would surprise me with these motors, but at least no one is getting motors that appear to have been under water like I heard of a shipment of Xlyte motors.

John

[amberwolf]

That's pretty bad. Perhaps the ship was taking on water and the water-bailing didn't get to that compartment in time.

Regarding the cover defect on mine, I don't think it is a machining mark, mostly because I don't recall it being there to start with, and from what I can tell it appears to fault thru other machining marks, indicating it happened after the machining was done.

Based on assembly processes and order, I am going to guess that this part of the cover wall is machined pretty thin, as it isn't physically doing much besides keeping the bearings from slding out the sides under normal vertical loads. When they install the bearings, if they are a tight fit they probably use a mallet or a hammer to get them in there, and if they hit it hard enough to force the bearing to smack against that thinly-machined part, it could easily have made a fracture right at the stressable point where the cut squares out to the bearing's OD.

Once that fracture is there, then side stresses on the wheel woudl exacerbate it. There are more side stresses on DGA than many bikes, because it is heavier, and because the off-center load of the heavy cargo pod with batteries/etc in it cause me to ride slightly tilted all the time, which will induce mroe side load into the bearings and the wheel cover, as the wheel pulls against the axle.

I need to find my magnifiers to see if I can set the camera up to take a good picture thru them, or at least to see it myself closer than I can with my aging eyes that seem to need bifocals.


I was so tired when I got home tonite that I fell asleep not long after, and I did not get anything done on checking/fixing the wheel. I'm still wiped out and expect to doze off in the middle of reading or posting, perhaps a few times, so I don't think I shoudl try to work on it right now, and I also have to work early tomorrow, but I get home earlier, too, so I may have time to deal with it.


I did do one quick check, and that was to put a meter on the halls and verify that htey all switch as expected as the motor spins. So the halls aren't bad, and neither are their connections to the controller.

That leaves something in the phases, which includes both the wires from stator to controller and the FETs in the controller(s).

Boy am I hoping for a wiring problem!

[amberwolf]

Regarding the defect around the bearing recess/axle hole, it is actually a casting fault; it's flashing from the mold. When I examined it closely, I noticed the bloody obvious area that has it machined away, while the rest of the surface that still has the defect is just oxidized aluminum, as a cast surface appears. Dunno why I didn't see that before. But it isn't a machining defect, except in the meaning that it wasnt' machined off. At least I can stop worrying about that part now.


I didn't get as much done as I wanted, due to still being so tired that I took several involuntary naps, both at the bike troubleshooting and at the computer when I sat down to eat something and let my mind wander away from the frustration.

It does not appear to be a problem with the motor itself. Originally this was purchased as a repaired motor, and it had a (very good) repair right at the axle outlet hole of the cabling, presumably by Lyen. However, I've not been as careful of that repair as I could be, especially at a couple of narrow-space bike racks I lock up at, and some of the insulation has been damaged here and there--not enough to expose wire AFAICT, but enough to worry me with the problems I'm having. So I removed all the insulation, unsoldered the repair, removed the internal remainder of cable in the axle and wheel, and fed the remaining cable back thru from the outside to the internal connections.

I also changed the simple lap-solder that 9C did to install the phase wires to the coils, so that the phase and coil wire strands are lapped and interwoven, rather than just each separately twisted compact and then each tinned and more-or-less parallel-lapped to the other. Much better mechanical connection, which won't require solder to hold it together should something ever go wrong that heats it up enough to melt solder (I hope not!).

Retesting after this finds no difference in the problems.

On the Lyen controller, I get stuttering and shuddering, even with teh original phase/hall color combination. (everything lined up except B & G phases swapped).

On the EVAssemble controller, I have two combos that result in a very noisy forward motion, one much faster than the other. The first combo is 1:1 color matched, and the other has the halls shifted by one, Y-B B-G G-Y and phases matched.

The first combo spins up faster and faster as throttle is increased, then at around 70-80% (I think) it suddenly slows down again.

The second combo spins up normally and appears to reach full speed for 36V (no speedo on the test stand) at no load, but it is VERY noisy, kinda rough grindy sounding. Much worse than the noise problem I started out trying to find and fix when I broke things, but VERY similar in sound.

I am too tired to try it with the other motor, as my hands are very klutzy right now--I'm having to almost hunt and peck to type this to get it readable. I suspect that the other motor will sound the same, and that I have blown up the controllers somehow.

Maybe more testing tomorrow, or maybe I will just spend the time putting the Fusin back on DGA for now, as my knees and muscles are really unhappy with having to pedal with zero assist. Day after tomorrow I have to be at work two hours earlier than the rest of the week, so I won't have as much time to fiddle with stuff before trying to sleep, and I'll be less capable of pedalling well that morning, too.

[amberwolf]

Was considering putting the FUsin back on DGA but remembered that I had not fixed the rim yet, and the rear brakes on DGA are still not very good just because I don't really have a true rim back there, and because I have a really hard time getting to the pads to adjust them right because of my cargo pod/rack design.

So I decided to leave it on TVE for now, and was going to just hack it all together so I could have an assisted bke to ride to work tomorrow, but that didnt' work out so well either.
viewtopic.php?p=322998#p322998
After that, I decided that this weekend I will try putting it in a 24" rim and stick it on CrazyBike2 to get it up and running again real quick
viewtopic.php?p=322999#p322999
Then I can take my time fixing DGA and/or bulding that new bike, etc.


I also got the bolts I needed for the terminals on those TS60Ah cells, so now I can build that up into a 32V pack, and use it for whatever I get running, if I need a lot of power or a lot of range, but not a lot of speed. Still have to make the intercell connects and stuff, but as long as I don't destroy them due to no BMS yet (still building that, too), I ought to be able to do some serious power testing with them.

[amberwolf]

Ok, I fixed the problem with the 9C / Lyen 6FET. Turns out to have been an I D ten T error, in my redo of the motor phase/hall wires.

What apparently happened is that somehow I mixed up the blue and green hall wires inside the motor itself, when I was redoing them to remove the splice they had at the axle exit point. This meant that even though I "knew" the combination for this set of motor and controller, it would never work, because it wasnt' actually right.

I only figured it out after actually going thru the combination chart, then when I hit the working one, it was correct *except* that the blue and green halls were swapped. At that point it became obvious what happened. I wasn't working with bright enough light when I did the motor wires, and obviously couldn't tell the difference between them at least for the moment it took to mix them up while soldering to the hall pigtails inside the motor.

Anyhow, I also retested it with the 36V EVAssemble controller, and verified it works there, too. I don't know why I could not get it to work with any combination on that one before; I must have had some other connection problem at the moment I tried the right combo (or during all testing).

In addition, I've now tested it ok with a Methods 100V 18FET that I just fixed tonight (3 more bad FETs, blown when I was experimenting with ti after my first FET replacement on it, just figuring out the combination of wires for the Fusin on it, months ago).

I also tested it ok with a now-fixed 12-FET Infineon from Ianmcnally, which had had melted shunts (!!!!) and blown main powerfilter caps, from having been connected to power in reverse, I think.
viewtopic.php?p=307024#p307024
I pulled the two 1milliohm shunts out of an old fried analog brushless controller (also from Ianmcnally, I think?) that I probably won't fix for a long while. I don't know if they are even close to the right value for this Infineon, but they are all I had easy to get to right now. THe caps were two 470uF 63V caps, and for the moment I used a single large cap of 820uF 200V, which has the big fat pointy-blade leads. It wont' fit on the board normally, so I wired it in instead. I'm sure I have a better replacement somewhere, but this one should be fine for a while.


I decided I would put the 6-pin JST(?) style connector on this one and on both the 9C 2807 and the 9C/GM1000W combo, for the halls, to begin standardization of my controllers to all one kind of connector so I can just swap them right out. I also put the wires into the connectors on the motor side in the order needed to be able to just plug into an Infineon already wired with this type of connector, as the Methods 18FET already was.

I'm doing the same thing with the phase wires, which will for now use Anderson PP45 simply because they're already on the Methods 18FET, the 9C/GM1000W, and the 12FET from Ianmcnally, and because I have a few I can use for the other side of those connections. I dont' have any extra bullet connectors, just a few on various dead controllers, and they are all the not-so-great kind of bullets, more like the automotive wiring-harness type. The color of the Anderson shells will match whatever the controller end is, for that mtoro's correct combination, so I can match the Anderson color and ignore the wire color, between any motor and any controller.

The idea will be to be able to swap out motors and controllers effortlessly, wherever possible, to get things going again as fast as possible, no messing around with figuring out combinations.


Now I need to go see if I can find anything else I have around here that either has that same 6-pin JST(?) male connector on it, so I can fit them on all the controllers (except the FUsin, which will only be used with the Fusin motor). I will need to find one for the Lyen 6FET controller and one for the EVAssemble 12FET; I've got them on the generic 12FET and the Methods 18FET.

So now in theory I have three "spare" controllers, though really only two--the Methods 18FET is going to go on CrazyBike2, driving the Icecube57 9C/GM1000W combo motor, once I figure out a safe way to lace it up in a crappy Huffy-bike steel 24" rim with the spokes I already have from some other wheel.

Then I need to go strip the braided shield off the outside of some old coax cable to make myself the jumpers between 10 TS60Ah cells to power it with.

[amberwolf]

It is indeed the JST connector, in this case the JST-SM series that I'm thinking of.
http://www.jst-mfg.com/product/detail_e.php?series=238
Seems to be a 5-pin that's standard on ebikes.ca's motors. I've seen at least two controllers now that use the 6-pin instead, though one used a male and the other a female, both used basically the same wiring pattern (5V red, Gnd yellow, green/gray/brown for halls, black unused). That is what I've adopted for now, or will if I find more of the male end (hollow with pins sticking out, rather than block with holes and sockets) in my various salvaged electronics to use on the motors, and female to use on the other controllers.

Ianmcnally included a few unused ones with new pins for them in the last box of stuff, and those will be very helpful in converting the Lyen controller and 9C 2807 over. The Fusin I'd like to also change to this style, so that should something go wrong with either it or it's controller, I can use something else on whichever bike ends up with it (probably The Velcro Eclipse) to still commute with should it end up as my only working system at the time. (what with my pondering and experimenting, I am always breaking stuff that should last forever. )

I've been messing around with CrazyBike2 trying to find a rim and spokes to lace up the 9C/GM for much of today, so I haven't yet put the 9C back on DayGlo Avenger and done a road test with it--I really need to do this, to make sure it works normally. Before I do, I'll be converting the Hall connector to the JST-SM series on the Lyen 6FET, just in case something goes wrong.