SOLVED! Infineon Cutting out Question

[gwhy!]

It may just be that by selecting a 212 instead of a 206 you are dividing by half your real soft-current limits (both battery and phase), so it may be this that makes it looks "fixed"? To really be sure, you could select the 212 as controller type but double both current limits as when using the 206 setting - both results should be equivalent.

The transistor-based current overload circuit signal is independant of firmware, so programmed values should not directly affect it... unless using the 212 and 218 settings makes the firmware ignore the overload signal possibly? But then, why would they populate the overload signal parts on their 212's?

I quickly re-programmed my modded 6fet (with soldered shunt) to try this last night ( so I havent done any real testing with it ) programmed current was set to 20A and phase current to 60A , Before re-programming the controller would cutout and the watt meter peaked at 10A (as virgin 6fet ) after re-programming watt meter peaked at 12A and no sign of cutting out ( this was with no load on the motor ). My thinking is maybe the board selection in the software is that one of its functions is to delay the hard cutoff for the type of controller selected... If all the controllers have all the same values of components then the only thing that can change it is the sofware because my 12fet works ok .

[gwhy!]

Just connected up the re-programmed controller to a load and with the software current set to 20\50 the controller works 100%. The shunt is about half the original value this gives me a real current limit of 20A ( and the controller shuts down if the motor is stalled for about 1-2 secs - this is about the same as my older 6fet )so it looks like the only real difference between the 6fet and the 12fet is the shunt ( stock shunt on 6fet is about double the value of the stock 12fet ) so it all works out. I need to fit a lot smaller shunt to really give it a full 80 to 90 A load test.

Edit: I just re-programmed my controller to 40/100 but this, every now and again do cut out from a dead stop but nowhere near as bad as original ( and is just about usable ) , it current limits at 38A. I was hoping that if the shunt was halved then the 212 software settings will make the 6fet as the stock 12fet ( it was worth a shot and do improve things but dont fix them )

Edit2: Thinking about it my 12fet is running stock fets so it will not be programmed for so high a current ( from memory its only set for 25/62) and the shunt is halved. I wonder if the 12fet will also cut out if I upped it to 40/100 ( I cant try it cos it will blow up ) .... Burtie had a 12fet fitted to a bike he was having similar problems with cutting out same as the 6fets.. I wonder what current settings he had programmed into the controller.

[12p3phPMDC]

You guys rock!!

Excellent work.

[gwhy!]

And so it continues ,
I just re-programmed my modded 6fet using the '218' settings to 20/50 and adjusted the shunt for about 60a limit , The controller works sweet as a nut. I conclude from this that the software indeed to play apart in the hard cutoff ( be nice if someone else can confirm the results as Im getting ). What I think would be nice though is to have some sort of switch for 'on the fly' current limiting settings, and from what matt have shown and with Jeremy's suggestions this very much looks doable, but would it be usefull thats another story.

[Jeremy Harris]

Nice work.

What I think might be happening is that changing the controller type changes the time delay before pin 27 going low has any effect. This makes sense, as the controllers with the larger number of FETs will have more junctions to heat up from the over-current pulses, so will be more tolerant of a longer period at over-load current.

So, it looks like the overload circuit tells the controller that the peak current is too high, and the time between seeing this overload signal and shutting the controller down depends on the number of FETs that the controller thinks it's driving. If the overload signal goes away before the set time, then the controller just ignores it and carries on running.

The other function of the controller type setting is the one we already know; it sets the steady state current limit based on the shunt resistance, which changes with the size of the controller.

Jeremy

[gwhy!]

Nice work.

What I think might be happening is that changing the controller type changes the time delay before pin 27 going low has any effect. This makes sense, as the controllers with the larger number of FETs will have more junctions to heat up from the over-current pulses, so will be more tolerant of a longer period at over-load current.

So, it looks like the overload circuit tells the controller that the peak current is too high, and the time between seeing this overload signal and shutting the controller down depends on the number of FETs that the controller thinks it's driving. If the overload signal goes away before the set time, then the controller just ignores it and carries on running.

The other function of the controller type setting is the one we already know; it sets the steady state current limit based on the shunt resistance, which changes with the size of the controller.

Jeremy

Yes, I think this sums it up nicely . The real acid test will be when I put it on the bike ( hopefully soon ) .

[nieles]

i also added hall sensors to a 6374 outrunner. and it is having the same symptoms you guys discribe.

so what is the easiest thing to try? i think the reprogramming with 212 settings?
also if i reprogram, what should be my settings? i have not modded anything yet to the controller.

Niels

[Burtie]

I tried the 1k resistor mod across C20 and it fixed my cutting out problems

Thanks for all your hard work guys!

Burtie.

[gwhy!]

i also added hall sensors to a 6374 outrunner. and it is having the same symptoms you guys discribe.

so what is the easiest thing to try? i think the reprogramming with 212 settings?
also if i reprogram, what should be my settings? i have not modded anything yet to the controller.

Niels

I think re-programming with 212 setting will be the easiest, If you are running stock fets then program to 20/50 and halve the shunt value this should give you around 20A limit. Once you have confirmed that this works just reprogram with higher values ( with the 212 settings and halve shunt value it started cutting out again at 40a ) this will depend on motor. I think 30/75 with halve shunt value will be what you should be aiming for ( with stock fets ). Hope this helps.

[Thud]

Good work & thanks to all the electronic's minded folks who have looked at this issue.
Jerremy H, Gwhy, Matt,Burtie....you guys all rock!

Now I would like to steer this into the NOOB teritory & ask for a couple points of clarification.
Here is where I am at:

Gwhy- you mention 1/2ing the values...(I am interpreting this as the "programed value" in parameter designer)
this is because of the variance of shunt value from the b206 & b212 (?) essentialy inputing 20 for an expected 40?

I like the idea of adding a resistor accross C20 because, (I assume) the programed values (in the Current/voltage design box of PD) acuratly depict the expectation?

My goal is to write a SOP for the 1 or 2 controllers I intend to use with a couple levels of modifications.
(al'a Will newton)
A step by step guide for those who have a real hard time visualizing these things & don't comprehend the variables.

I have talked to a few mechanicly inclined guys with my level of ellectronics knowlege who read the infineon threads & quit....too much info & theroy.

Ive also laughed at the few questions I got pm'd on controllers, As I am an ellectronics dufass. I can solder like the wind But to change values on components & start modding shunts (like methods & a few others here) to affect re-gen voltages is WAY outside of my comfort zone. At best I am a gifted mimic.
Thanks again guy's.

[nieles]

Thud, if you want a 20a limit, you have to program the controller with 40a. OR you can 1/2 the resistance of the shunt, by ading solder to the shunt. When you do the soldering 20a is 20a again.

Niels

[nieles]

i did some testing.. and it worked!

well with an 10A limit.. when i reprogrammed to 25/65 it started cutting out again.

so i will test the 218 settings. to see if it gets better or not. if this doesnt work i will do the resistor mod.

Niels

[ZapPat]

i also added hall sensors to a 6374 outrunner. and it is having the same symptoms you guys discribe.

so what is the easiest thing to try? i think the reprogramming with 212 settings?
also if i reprogram, what should be my settings? i have not modded anything yet to the controller.

Niels

I think re-programming with 212 setting will be the easiest, If you are running stock fets then program to 20/50 and halve the shunt value this should give you around 20A limit. Once you have confirmed that this works just reprogram with higher values ( with the 212 settings and halve shunt value it started cutting out again at 40a ) this will depend on motor. I think 30/75 with halve shunt value will be what you should be aiming for ( with stock fets ). Hope this helps.

Great to know those results are even better with the "218 and triple current limits" settings, gwhy!


- So I guess the easiest fix for the cutout is the programming technique:
Selecting "EB212" instead of "EB206", and then doubling both the current limits (as compared to the usually used limits for the "EB206").
Or again... Selecting "EB218" instead of "EB206", and then tripling both the programmed current limits with the "EB218" compared to the usually used limits for the "EB206".

- There is the method of adding a resistor across surface mount capacitor "C20" which acts as a voltage divider for the overcurrent signal. A 1kohm resistor here should double your overcurrent cutoff, a 500ohm one tripple it, and a 333ohm quadruple it.

- There is also the good old shunt soldering method that would also help reduce the cutoffs of course.

- Adding some extra capacitance in parallel with "C20" may also help reduce sporadic overcurrent cutoffs by filtering out the spikes.

Does this sound right, guys?

And Matt - maybe you could change the thread tittle to reflet it's "SOLVED" status?

[gwhy!]

you mention 1/2ing the values...(I am interpreting this as the "programed value" in parameter designer)
this is because of the variance of shunt value from the b206 & b212 (?) essentialy inputing 20 for an expected 40?

The halving of value refer to the shunt inside the controller.

This is the standard 6 fet shunt no blobs of solder. Values selected in Parameter designer board set to 206 board 20A=20A

stock 6fet shunt.jpg (26.52 KiB) Viewed 657 times

This is the standard 6 fet shunt with 1 blob of solder. Values selected in Parameter designer board set to 212 board 20A=20A

stock 6fet shunt_12fet.jpg (29.93 KiB) Viewed 657 times

This is the standard 6 fet shunt with 2 blobs of solder. Values selected in Parameter designer board set to 218 board 20A=20A

stock 6fet shunt_18fet.jpg (18.06 KiB) Viewed 657 times

This method for reducing the value of the shunt varies, but the pictures show will give you a starting point. Hope this helps.

[gwhy!]

Thud, if you want a 20a limit, you have to program the controller with 40a. OR you can 1/2 the resistance of the shunt, by ading solder to the shunt. When you do the soldering 20a is 20a again.

Niels

You need to also do the reduction in value of the shunt if you use higher board types in the software other wise nothing changes. Sorry Niels if this is what you have already done but I thought I would just mention it to be clear, Programming with a higher board type requires the shunt value to be lowered also.

[matt_in_mtl]

- There is also the good old shunt soldering method that would also help reduce the cutoffs of course.
actually I tried this, and it did not resolve the problem. Jeremy Harris suggested that this may be due to the shunt operating as an inductor instead of a simple resistor at these large fast changing currrents. The other solutions give much better results

- Adding some extra capacitance in parallel with "C20" may also help reduce sporadic overcurrent cutoffs by filtering out the spikes.
C20 is unmarked, so we don't know what value it is. My solution was to increase R43, it is 1k standard, I have increased it to 47K, which has effectively filtered out all the current spikes, but if the current is high long enough it will still trip the cutoff. My controller still has stock fets, so I don't want to increase the cutoff to high. I am not convinced if this is the best solution though.

Does this sound right, guys?

And Matt - maybe you could change the thread tittle to reflet it's "SOLVED" status?
good idea

[matt_in_mtl]

Well... that was fun. I found 30amp phase to be a little anemic, and it was only drawing 8amps from the battery, so I upped the battery current to 40 amp and set the phase to 75 amp ( note this is with stock fets ) it was a lot better, and there was NO cutting out... except after a couple of blocks of medium uphill at low speeds pulling approximately 13amps from the battery... the controller died.. looks like a low side fet blew. So... 75 amp phase is too high for the stock 6 fet.

[ZapPat]

- There is also the good old shunt soldering method that would also help reduce the cutoffs of course.
actually I tried this, and it did not resolve the problem. Jeremy Harris suggested that this may be due to the shunt operating as an inductor instead of a simple resistor at these large fast changing currrents. The other solutions give much better results

I just soldered up my 206's shunt and it has cured my own cutoff problem... and more than doubled my current draw too! (up to 85A peak on the CA). I did no other mods to my controller, exept change the caps because they had almost exploded (and tripled their values so they hopefully don't pop again). It also seems like gwhy succesfully used this along with changing the controller type to a "EB212" to compensate for the lower shunt value.

Of course I'm using a 9C hub with this controller, not an outrunner like you are so my peak currents going into the motor aren't as high as in your system. So even though soldering the shunt might not have worked for you, it might well work for others using hubs also (which have higher resistance and inductance). Anyways, that little shunt needed to be soldered, because it was obvious that it was getting too hot at 35A with so much resistance.

- Adding some extra capacitance in parallel with "C20" may also help reduce sporadic overcurrent cutoffs by filtering out the spikes.
C20 is unmarked, so we don't know what value it is. My solution was to increase R43, it is 1k standard, I have increased it to 47K, which has effectively filtered out all the current spikes, but if the current is high long enough it will still trip the cutoff. My controller still has stock fets, so I don't want to increase the cutoff to high. I am not convinced if this is the best solution though.

That's a good way to change the RC time constant - and yes it's true that all this does is delay the reaction time, not lower it.

[ZapPat]

Well... that was fun. I found 30amp phase to be a little anemic, and it was only drawing 8amps from the battery, so I upped the battery current to 40 amp and set the phase to 75 amp ( note this is with stock fets ) it was a lot better, and there was NO cutting out... except after a couple of blocks of medium uphill at low speeds pulling approximately 13amps from the battery... the controller died.. looks like a low side fet blew. So... 75 amp phase is too high for the stock 6 fet.

Unmodified 6FET controller @ 40A battery = sure death!!

IIf you want to beef it up good you'll need: Very thin kapton /mica, low ESR caps, good FETs (3006 = 60V, 4110 = 100V), good wires... and patience! Have fun!

Pat

[matt_in_mtl]

Unmodified 6FET controller @ 40A battery = sure death!!

Pat

Yeah, apparently to be fair I knew I was pushing it, and am not too surprised that it blew. Also, I was nowhere near 40A from the battery, more like 20A peak, I suspect it was hitting 75amp phase current limit which really hurt it. I have opened it up, and the fet that blew also melted it's little bolt insulator... not sure which happened first though, the melting causing a short or the heating/blowing causing the melting. Also, after looking up the datasheet for the fets turns out they are only rated for max 60A continuous (I thought they were rated for 75A continuous)... oops!

Glad to hear you solved your cutting out problems by modding the shunt. I suspect you are right that it worked because you are using a hub motor. I was able to scope the shunt voltage hitting 0.6V even after modifying it.

-matt

[gwhy!]

Unmodified 6FET controller @ 40A battery = sure death!!

Pat

Yeah, apparently to be fair I knew I was pushing it, and am not too surprised that it blew. Also, I was nowhere near 40A from the battery, more like 20A peak, I suspect it was hitting 75amp phase current limit which really hurt it. I have opened it up, and the fet that blew also melted it's little bolt insulator... not sure which happened first though, the melting causing a short or the heating/blowing causing the melting. Also, after looking up the datasheet for the fets turns out they are only rated for max 60A continuous (I thought they were rated for 75A continuous)... oops!

Glad to hear you solved your cutting out problems by modding the shunt. I suspect you are right that it worked because you are using a hub motor. I was able to scope the shunt voltage hitting 0.6V even after modifying it.

-matt

Hi Matt,
The stock fets are a bit rubbish on these controllers My thinking is that the insulator melted due to the heat this fet can generate ( High Rds value ) which then reduced the thermal contact to the heatsink which made the fet even hotter and so on ( so probebly nothing to do with excessive current in the true sense of the word), The case that these controllers are in also are not the best for moving the thermals about. I have re-housed my 6fet controllers into a similar size box with better heatsinking.

[kZs0lt]

Hi guys,

I just came across this thread, I see the members have just solved a critical problem with the little 6 FET controller.

I am about ordering a little 6FET controller myself as well from Keywin, are there any other issues I should know about?
I am asking this because once I burned myself with getting a controller from him which turned out to be a slow start one

I will fit it with 4110 FETs, and want to be able to run it 40-50 battery amps max, but more like 20-30 normally. And phase current as high as possible.
My 12 FET controller is just too big

I have the usb wiring harness for programming, it was for the 12 FET 846 infineon controller, I think it can be adapted to these.
So I can run these higher currents with programming as a higher PCB, and/or shunt soldering.

What should I specifically ask for from keywin. Do I need to specify the chip 116/846, instant start, not pedal first sensorless...
Any advice is welcomed.

I appreciate your great work in solving this issue.

Zsolt

[gwhy!]

Hi guys,

I just came across this thread, I see the members have just solved a critical problem with the little 6 FET controller.

I am about ordering a little 6FET controller myself as well from Keywin, are there any other issues I should know about?
I am asking this because once I burned myself with getting a controller from him which turned out to be a slow start one

I will fit it with 4110 FETs, and want to be able to run it 40-50 battery amps max, but more like 20-30 normally. And phase current as high as possible.
My 12 FET controller is just too big

I have the usb wiring harness for programming, it was for the 12 FET 846 infineon controller, I think it can be adapted to these.
So I can run these higher currents with programming as a higher PCB, and/or shunt soldering.

What should I specifically ask for from keywin. Do I need to specify the chip 116/846, instant start, not pedal first sensorless...
Any advice is welcomed.

I appreciate your great work in solving this issue.

Zsolt

Hi Zsolt,
When I ordered my latest 2 6fets controllers from E-crazyman ( keywin ?) I didnt specifiy anything, I recieved the newer 116 instant start controllers, I HAVE NOT confirmed this but the pedal first can be disabled/enabled in the software should that be a problem ( it wasnt for the 2 of mine ). Your programming lead will be ok to use but may need a slight mod. If your new controller cuts out when rolling on the throttle then in the software select the next board type up ( 12fet ) and halve the Shunt value this will then give you the indicated motor/phase current set in the software and try again, If still cuts out then set 18fet and reduce the shunt value again, and so on till it don't cut out. I have only tried this upto the 18fet settings but I think the newer software supports 24fet .
Hope this helps.

[hydro-one]

Why not just order a 6fet from justin ebikes.ca. already has 4030fets (?) or good ones anyways. i soldered the shunt and now get over 5000w during hard acceleration on the CA (calibrated pretty close) 60v. My 14g battery wire gets warm. but controller stays cool!!! Am i just lucky???

this controller rocks with the good fets!!!!

mike

[kZs0lt]

Hi Zsolt,
When I ordered my latest 2 6fets controllers from E-crazyman ( keywin ?) I didnt specifiy anything, I recieved the newer 116 instant start controllers, I HAVE NOT confirmed this but the pedal first can be disabled/enabled in the software should that be a problem ( it wasnt for the 2 of mine ). Your programming lead will be ok to use but may need a slight mod. If your new controller cuts out when rolling on the throttle then in the software select the next board type up ( 12fet ) and halve the Shunt value this will then give you the indicated motor/phase current set in the software and try again, If still cuts out then set 18fet and reduce the shunt value again, and so on till it don't cut out. I have only tried this upto the 18fet settings but I think the newer software supports 24fet .
Hope this helps.

Thanks for your input gwhy!
I am ordering a 6 FET controller and a separate PCB board just in case I screw up something
Oh, I didn't knew that these are not pedal first or instant start, and they can do both. My 846 infineon is not pedal first, but slow start and not instant start. I came to hate that delayed throttle response.

Why not just order a 6fet from justin ebikes.ca. already has 4030fets (?) or good ones anyways. i soldered the shunt and now get over 5000w during hard acceleration on the CA (calibrated pretty close) 60v. My 14g battery wire gets warm. but controller stays cool!!! Am i just lucky???

this controller rocks with the good fets!!!!

mike

That controller is a great value indeed, but I can come out cheaper from Keywin with a little labor.

I see that soldering up the shunts is a widespread hobby . Wouldn't that affect the accuracy of the CA? It may be a quick solution, but maybe not the best. They use constantan/manganin for a good reason in shunts instead of lead. I'd rather double up, or shorter the shunt. But however it may have little significance, because the solder has a much lower resistivity and it's temperature dependance may not show significant shift.

zsolt