Pros and cons of these different Infineon controllers?

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Monsoon

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Joined
Jul 23, 2013
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Location
N.E. Ohio
Hi everybody, ebike noob here with a question about 3 different ranges of Infineon controllers from the website EM3. I spent the last few hours scouring the site, and couldn't find this being directly dealt with.

The details:
I have the latest version of MAC geared motor with hall sensor, in a 10T winding.
A 48v 20ah LiFePO4 battery using 38120 headway batteries.

The EM3 site suggests that a 6 FET infineon controller would work.
But I wonder if going to a higher FET count helps/hurts/makes no difference.
(oh and I can never be sure if I might want to update to a larger battery along the way. so get the small controller now, then larger one with larger battery is ok, but I don't mind paying the extra money now for the larger version, hence this question)

I'm looking at the 6 FET, the 9 FET and the 12 FET controllers.
Each controller size range has two versions, one with 63v caps and one with 100v caps.

I have a bike computer on my bike already, so i'm not sure if i'll need (or even have space on my crowded handlebars!) to use something sophisticated like the Cycle Analyst. But worse comes to worse, I could remove my current odometer.

Here's all the pertinent info from each listing just in case:

6 fet IRFB3077 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
63V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 60V
36-50V operation, 60V max
25A Current Limit

6 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
100V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 90V
36-72V operation, 90V max (Jumper to select 60V plus)
25A Current Limit

9 fet IRFB3077 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
63V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 60V
36-50V operation, 60V max
30A Current Limit

9 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
100V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 100V
36-72V operation, 90V max
30A Current Limit

12 fet IRFB3077 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
63V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 60V
36-50V operation, 60V max
40A Current Limit

12 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
100V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 90V
36-72V operation, 90V max
40A Current Limit

I appreciate any help you folks can give me on this.

:mrgreen:
 
Monsoon said:
Hi everybody, ebike noob here with a question about 3 different ranges of Infineon controllers from the website EM3. I spent the last few hours scouring the site, and couldn't find this being directly dealt with.

The details:
I have the latest version of MAC geared motor with hall sensor, in a 10T winding.
A 48v 20ah LiFePO4 battery using 38120 headway batteries.

The EM3 site suggests that a 6 FET infineon controller would work.
But I wonder if going to a higher FET count helps/hurts/makes no difference.
(oh and I can never be sure if I might want to update to a larger battery along the way. so get the small controller now, then larger one with larger battery is ok, but I don't mind paying the extra money now for the larger version, hence this question)

I'm looking at the 6 FET, the 9 FET and the 12 FET controllers.
Each controller size range has two versions, one with 63v caps and one with 100v caps.

I have a bike computer on my bike already, so i'm not sure if i'll need (or even have space on my crowded handlebars!) to use something sophisticated like the Cycle Analyst. But worse comes to worse, I could remove my current odometer.

Here's all the pertinent info from each listing just in case:

6 fet IRFB3077 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
63V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 60V
36-50V operation, 60V max
25A Current Limit

6 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
100V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 90V
36-72V operation, 90V max (Jumper to select 60V plus)
25A Current Limit

9 fet IRFB3077 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
63V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 60V
36-50V operation, 60V max
30A Current Limit

9 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
100V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 100V
36-72V operation, 90V max
30A Current Limit

12 fet IRFB3077 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
63V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 60V
36-50V operation, 60V max
40A Current Limit

12 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller (Motor With Hall Sensors)
100V Caps, Max input voltage is limited to 90V
36-72V operation, 90V max
40A Current Limit

I appreciate any help you folks can give me on this.

:mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Going to a higher FET count helps to spread the workload and keep them cooler. But it may also be slightly less efficient. Depends on the FETs

I like 12 FETs for these motors. Not too expensive, but it has the headroom for more power should you decide to up the voltage.

No real need to get 100V caps since a 10T will not be seeing that voltage. (Should not, that is)
 
oh yeah, I should probably mention that this setup is basically just for hills, and not for continuous use.

where I want to ride there are a few hills that make it a very hard ride for me. other than those hills, I could put in a good 20 mile ride on a regular basis.
 
@cal3thousand thanks for the quick reply.

my main concern is whether a higher FET controller could allow more current to flow into the motor under peak conditions than would be healthy for the motor.

but I suppose at 48v 20ah, that shouldn't be all that much of a concern.

and it looks like a good idea in terms of what you said about the FET's being able to stay cooler this way.

8)
 
Monsoon said:
@cal3thousand thanks for the quick reply.

my main concern is whether a higher FET controller could allow more current to flow into the motor under peak conditions than would be healthy for the motor.

but I suppose at 48v 20ah, that shouldn't be all that much of a concern.

and it looks like a good idea in terms of what you said about the FET's being able to stay cooler this way.

8)
Click to expand...


You can always program the controller for less current. Or have it sent to you preprogrammed. I think cell_man does that too
 
I notice the controller is available with a usb data cable.

Is that something that can be used to program the amperage?

(heading to work, will check back later)
 
Monsoon said:
I notice the controller is available with a usb data cable.

Is that something that can be used to program the amperage?

(heading to work, will check back later)
Click to expand...


That would be the item! Software is available for download on this forum somewhere. Look for xie chang programming.
 
Honestly, all you need is a 6FET controller for the MAC motor at 48 volts. The 3077FET can handle 210 amps peak each, and have a realy low Rds. So a 6 FET controller with IRFB3077 FETs can handle 40 battery amps.

The 3077 FET is more efficent than the 4110 FET, but it runs at lower voltages. The only time you would need a 4110 is for high voltage applications, but the MACs aren't built for high volts or high amps.

With a direct drive motor, you may see higher phase amps while under load at low RPM, and that can cause the controller to get very hot. in cases like that, having a bigger controller with more FETs makes sense. Each FET will run cooler, and you'll have more surface area to shed heat.
With the geared MAC, you won't be stressing the motor as much, so a smaller controller will be fine.



But now that I have said all that, get the 9 FET. it's overkill, but it's cheap insurance. you can abuse the heck out of it and fry the motor before the controller pops.

The Data cable is a nice thing to have. You can then program the controller any way you want. the Cycle Analyst is also nice to have. It replaces your cycle computer, but also tracks things like battery voltage, apmerage, wattage used, watts per mile, cycles on the battery, and motor temp, if you have the temp probe installed on the motor. Its also usefull for setting speed limiters and amp limits on the motor, along with a bunch of other features you may not be interested in, like torque throttles, pedal assist, and regen tracking (not possable with the MAC motor).

I do have to ask, though, Why a 20 amp battery if you only plan to use the motor up hills? Do you plan many 100 mile rides? Or is your idea of a hill Mt Everist?
 
@cal3thousand great, i'm glad I held off on my controller order to find this out.
and I have seen the software mentioned a couple of times here while I was looking around at controller info.

@Drunkskunk it's good to know that those controller FET's are so robust.

As far as the amperage I chose, i've been digging around for several weeks on this, upwards of 8 hours a day on some days. And I never once found any sort of rule of thumb on how much power I needed for my size.
I'm 6'2", and a bit over 240lbs. And all of this gear is going on a hybrid GT bike that with battery, hub, bags and me, will exceed 300lbs total.

But really, i'm perfectly ok with it if it winds up being overkill. Better more power than I need, than less.
Oh, and did I mention I have a bad back? Yeah, so pretty much any time I have to climb out of the saddle, I risk having a bad day.
But if I stay in the saddle, i'm perfectly fine.

And i'm actually ok on medium hills. Unfortunately the bike trails around me have a few fairly steep ones that gas me out in a big hurry.
And the worst of the bunch is right at the start of my ride. Which means at the end of a 20 or so mile ride, I wind up facing what feels like a cliff to climb.
 
here's one of the links on Infineon software that I found, but I think this is a performance hack.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19446
 
thanks for the advice everyone, I went with the 9 FET and a basic thumb throttle set.

now I just need to get the motor spoked up in a wheel.
 
Monsoon said:
thanks for the advice everyone, I went with the 9 FET and a basic thumb throttle set.

now I just need to get the motor spoked up in a wheel.
Click to expand...

Go ahead and put your location in your profile too. It will help out later.
 
Drunkskunk said:
Honestly, all you need is a 6FET controller for the MAC motor at 48 volts. The 3077FET can handle 210 amps peak each, and have a realy low Rds. So a 6 FET controller with IRFB3077 FETs can handle 40 battery amps.

The 3077 FET is more efficent than the 4110 FET, but it runs at lower voltages. The only time you would need a 4110 is for high voltage applications, but the MACs aren't built for high volts or high amps.

But now that I have said all that, get the 9 FET. it's overkill, but it's cheap insurance. you can abuse the heck out of it and fry the motor before the controller pops.
Click to expand...


Well i am using the 12 fet IRFB3077 on my MAC 8T and on WOT (flat terrain) the controller gets hot to touch after 5-10 minutes, Not to mention the motor that so far has given me a temperature reading of up to 90C/194F.
 
Take a look at various controllers from 6 to 36 mosfet types and it should become obvious why the more fets the better. As for RDsOn values, it has very little effect for slow ass phase shifting in typical ebike controllers. You can verify this on the simulator using different values there. Going from the slowest to the fastest will only result in a max speed difference of <1mph at top speed. In case you don't understand what I'm talking about, note that the max watt rating for a 6 fet controller on this site is 350W, 800W for a 12 fet, etc. Watt ratings are for continuous operation, not peak rating, which can be 5 times or more higher for shorter periods of time depending on the max amperage of the controller.http://www.aliexpress.com/store/group/6-mosfet-type/313864_259093765.html
 
Also try the XPD software, it will program the controller too, with the same cable but many of us prefer it..it is a user thing , makes no real difference, but I prefer the XPD software to the other.

https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27927&start=400
 
I know this is a pretty old thread but it discusses exactly what I am interested in...well almost.

Has anybody programmed an Infineon 12 FET (IRFB 3077 FETs) to more than 40A battery or more than 112A phase current...without any reliability problems :lol: ?

I am running a 12T MAC in a 29" rim with a Maxxis Hookworm tire that is 750 mm OD and a 14s6p battery with 25r cells.

I'd like to go to 50A battery and 140A phase but the only "official" limits I can find are from EM3ev and they say 40/112 max. IMO a 10% increase should be OK but my proposed numbers are a 25% increase.

Thanks for any info :D .
 
Keep in mind that in these cheap common controller designs (whcih go all the way up to Sabvoton, Kelly, MQCON, and beyond), the powerstage doesn't do current sharing very well between FETs. So the higher you go, the more likely there is to be a difference between one fet and the next in the same phase, great enough to bring that FET past it's abilty to handle it, and POW, then all the current flows thru the other FET(s) in that leg of the phase, and POW (POW POW) etc.

:(

So pushing things harder than the max a trusted vendor recommends is probably bad for reliability.

(pushing things even that hard may affect reliability--any form of "hotrodding" almost always decreases reliability, though you can get lucky for a long time...right up until you don't. ;) ).
 
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