BMS Battery Q100 kit as shipped difficult to install...

Hello everyone,

I'm not sure if this is the correct part of the forum for a post like this, if not please just let me know.

I bought a Q100 kit from BMS a few months back and just got around to installing it, or rather attempting to install it. The kit is this one http://goo.gl/emPwZK which I assumed should have been fairly plug-n-play. I had heard complaints about the controller being under powered but no one having so much trouble that they couldn't even build it.

The first problem I ran into is the wheel appears to be spaced entirely incorrectly, maybe even backward. It's about 1 inch off center of where it needs to be. Anyone else ever run into this on one of these Chinese kits?

The second and showstopping problem is that the provided brake levels and throttle don't have corresponding connectors in the controller! I suppose if I had a wiring diagram I could splice the wires together but from what I gather trolling this forum for the last couple months they are hard or impossible to come by. Does anyone know about these bottle mount controllers?

I'm posting this mostly out of frustration, just wasted 3 hours so I'm pretty let down. i contacted BMS Battery but judging by the customer service I got while waiting for my order that's going to be a dead end.

If anyone has any ideas on how I can get the kit wired correctly it'd be appreciated.

I was hoping not to have to buy anything additional but if there is a well known controller that has wiring diagrams I supposed I could buy that and attempt to do all the wiring myself.

Here is a link with photos of the mess... https://plus.google.com/photos/112314393575409570776/albums/5967751562909968753

Thanks,
Doug

Is that the diagram below for your battery-controller? Throttle and brake wires are listed.

S06P diagram under Download tab
https://www.bmsbattery.com/attachment.php?id_attachment=53

from
36V 10.4Ah Bottlle ebike battery power bank
http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/567-bottle-ebike-battery-controller.html

Wrote a huge post about testing, then saw Marks lol

That is the one, guess I could have dug around a bit more. Frustration got the best of me.
The connectors are still incompatible though so I guess I'll need to get new connectors or otherwise splice the wires directly together.

Looks like I'm also going to need to get the wheel re-laced or else try to learn how to do it..

Thanks,
-Doug

looks like you have an axle nut on the freewheel size... remove it and spin it on the other side... that will help the rim centering.

you might want to take the brake levers off, since they don't work.
you don't need the ebrake since the motor freewheels. All they will do is cut the power.

The nut Ypedal is refering to might be needed on the side it's on. Most Qute motores are set up with it to get spacing for the freewhell.

You can try and center the whell yourself. You will need to losen all the spokes on the left side {coumt ttwo turns}and tighten the other side the same or more amount. That should dish the wheel in the direction you need.

As you said, don't expect much or any support from BMS. They sell but in most cases don't have a clue what they are selling!.

Dan

dand214 the freewheel has no influance on the e-brake requirement.

Bugger, half my deleted post detailed dishing. I should of left my post intact.


With the wheel as shown the rim is too far too the left. Before moving it, put a couple of pegs or cable-ties on the frame, leaning on the rim. These are to show you how much the wheel has moved after making adjustments. This helps you gauge how much more adjustment is needed. Also, spin the wheel with your nails on the spokes and listen to the tone. You will do this after each set of adjustments, and the tone will tell you if the wheel is staying reasonably tensioned.
To move it, start at the valve (for reference) and work your way round loosening(lengthening) all the spokes that go to the left hub flange. Then again from the valve, go round tightening(shortening)the right hand side spokes. This will move the wheel to the right without changing spoke tension. Spin and listen to be sure it is still reasonable. Then see how far it moved. Based on how far it moved, start again, matching the number of turns on the left to the right. As the rim moves away from the center of the hub this 1:1 ratio is not perfect. Listening to the spokes will tell you if the right hand side ones are infact getting tighter than they should be. Heard as an increase in pitch. If so, don't turn them quite as much. You could also find the left spokes getting slacker, meaning you have reached the limit of adjustment.

Don't try and make all the spokes play the same tone. Some variance is normal. The rim might not of been perfectly round from factory, so the spokes are tensioned differently to pull it round. If however it is going out of round then you have a lot more to master. Just moving it sideways should be easy though. Just start at the valve so you don't loose track of where you are. Also, when loosening the left side, don't loosen them so much they go slack. The nuts can turn on their own when slack. My wheels are trued to an 1/8th of a turn, which is easily lost if they all fall slack.

I understand your frustration, but you should get all the facts before slagging of the supplier, and not use words like "useless" in the title, when later it'll be working perfectly, and you'll be happy with it. Anybody searching will see the title and get the wrong impression.. BMSBattery kits are not plug and play. There's always connectors that need to be wired or changed. The integrated S06S controller has the connectors for the hidden wire (in-line) brake sensors, which you should have ordered to make life easier. You can still use the two-wire lever brakes, but you have to connect your two wires to the yellow and blue wires in the controller brake connector either way round.

The spoke flanges on the rear Q100 are each off-set 4mm from the centre (10mm Q100C), so you have to put a dish in the wheel.

You can skip to the next paragraph. For the benefit of others, this is what you have to do if you have a disk brake. You can't move spacers to the brake side if you have a disk brake. To install the wheel, you have to start from the disk side otherwise the brake caliper won't line up. You'll need to play around with spacers and washers to get the disk the correct distance from the drop-out. Remove the caliper while you try it, then put the caliper in place to see if the fixing holes line up. You want the disk as close as you can to the dropout whilst still leaving a small amount of sideways caliper adjustment. The width of the Q100C is 139mm, so it will be a tight fit.

You might want to file the drop-outs a bit deeper if you don't use a torque arm so that the anti-rotation washer tabs have something to push against.

Once you have the spacing right, you can dish the wheel, which is easiest to do installed in the bike with the bike upside down unless you have a stand. Now you'll figure out that you should have ordered the $1 spoke key with your kit because bike shops rarely have the 13g key. When you get a key, starting at the valve, loosen each spoke nipple on the disk side one complete rotation. Then tighten each nipple on the cassette side one rotation. you'll need to repeat this about twice (four times for Q100C) to get the rim central, i.e. every nipple on the disk side loosened 2 turns and the other side tightened 2 turns. To get it exactly in the middle, you might have to go round tightening and loosening 1/4 or 1/2 turn at a time Finally, read Sheldon Brown's guide on wheel truing and tensioning, and do what's necessary.
http://sheldonbrown.com/tooltips/truing.html

There's a connection diagram that explains the wires and their function if you click the "download" tab at the bottom here:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/546-s06-250w-imitation-torque-square-wave-controller.html

Ask if you have more questions.

Dishing a hub motor, spokes looser on one side, like a bicycle hub, is a fail imo...you want all spokes tight on both sides as much as possible without stripping nipples or buckling the rim... and this removes all dish.

Better option is to spread the frame a bit and add washers to the non-chain side.. until you can get the brake pads to function properly (* even swapping the washers on the brake pad, they usually have a thick and thin washer per pad... swap them around )

The connectors not matching is total crap, but unfortunately, common.... i had to pull teeth to get this done right on my kits..

My BMS kit never had install/connection instructions. Being the eagle scout I am (ya right :| ) I just connected the similar plugs together "square peg goes to square hole" mentality. Didnt bother with tidyness in beginning. Just wanted the motor to spin. I cleaned the connections later on. By that time I had a mental picture of the connections. There was a few misteps along the way I recall. I believe a few connections are very similar in style.

If I was you, I'd place the undished wheel in the upside down bike and work on the wiring. Just to get the motor spinning is a good feeling & accomplishment. The physical changing of the wheeldish is icing on the cake. As others have said, you may not even need to redish with some spacers and muscles.

The first build is always the hardest. Keep at it!

Ypedal said:

Dishing a hub motor, spokes looser on one side, like a bicycle hub, is a fail imo...you want all spokes tight on both sides as much as possible without stripping nipples or buckling the rim... and this removes all dish.

Better option is to spread the frame a bit and add washers to the non-chain side.. until you can get the brake pads to function properly (* even swapping the washers on the brake pad, they usually have a thick and thin washer per pad... swap them around )

The connectors not matching is total crap, but unfortunately, common.... i had to pull teeth to get this done right on my kits..

Click to expand...

We have very different building beliefs. That 8mm of dish would require 16mm of washers which is a lot. Dishing 8mm won't leave the left spokes loose. You could still tighten the nipples enough to pass the spokes elastic limit and stretch them till they snap. Although tightening as much as possible makes a stressed wheel which is inherently weak. Spokes on bikes are meant to use there elasticity. If you go for FT they will relax in use and fall out of true sooner. They should play something like a G (a plink, not a plonk or a ping).

Works for me anyway. Pity I can't get a video up for you to listen. Big dish is a problem, but this is just 8mm(ish).

I thought at least 90% of us had dished wheels. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I'm using reason not experience (As I did when I built my wheels, which are still bang on 1300 miles later)

Ypedal said:

Dishing a hub motor, spokes looser on one side, like a bicycle hub, is a fail imo...you want all spokes tight on both sides as much as possible without stripping nipples or buckling the rim... and this removes all dish.

Click to expand...

That's not quite right. You can't have more tension on one side than the other. The tight side pulls the rim across until the tension in both sides is the same.

So I moved the one axle bolt to the other side of the wheel and it lines up now... Maybe they threaded it on just to keep the spacers on the drive side during shipping, I don't know.

I also attempted to wire the controller to the parts using the wiring info above. It didn't work, the wheel wouldn't turn with only the PAS sensor, only the throttle, and with both. The LCD display lights up and show the battery full but nothing else happens.

The controller in the bottom of the bottle I'm not real sure about... I see a lot of wires that seem damaged from being crammed into such a small space. I read on another thread about this same kit that the guy ended up ditching the built in controller and getting a different one all together. Does anyone have any suggestions on a good (cheap) 36v controller that has good documentation?

-Doug

If you need another, it is the S-series that take the lcd. Perhaps an s06s would suit sir. That may even be what you already have.

d8veh said:

You can't have more tension on one side than the other. The tight side pulls the rim across until the tension in both sides is the same.

Click to expand...

It does pull the rim across, but the tension does not become equal because the angles are not equal. The drive side spokes are almost vertical and the other side spokes are at a slant. But don't take my word for it, or geometries word for it, just find a normal bike somewhere and pluck a few spokes on both sides. The pitch difference is obvious.

-dg said:

d8veh said:

You can't have more tension on one side than the other. The tight side pulls the rim across until the tension in both sides is the same.

Click to expand...

It does pull the rim across, but the tension does not become equal because the angles are not equal. The drive side spokes are almost vertical and the other side spokes are at a slant. But don't take my word for it, or geometries word for it, just find a normal bike somewhere and pluck a few spokes on both sides. The pitch difference is obvious.

Click to expand...

The pitch will be different because the length is different; however, for the 230mm spokes on a 26" wheel with motor flanges 50mm apart, and a rim off-set of 5mm, the difference in tension between the two sides in the direction of the spokes is 1.0046%, which is not significant.

d8veh said:

The pitch will be different because the length is different; however, for the 230mm spokes on a 26" wheel with motor flanges 50mm apart, and a rim off-set of 5mm, the difference in tension between the two sides in the direction of the spokes is 1.0046%, which is not significant.

Click to expand...

Not significant, but not correct either. Your example as calculated by the Edd spoke calculator shows the left side is only 66% as tight as the right side. I've put the parameters below if you want to try it out.

Hub: Q100 diameter w 5mm offset
Left flange ⌀: 120 mm Right flange ⌀: 120 mm
Centre to left: 30 mm
Centre to right: 20 mm

Rim: Sun Rhyno Lite (6000 series 559x27mm)
ERD ⌀: 546 mm Size: 26"

Tension for 36 spokes cross 2.
Spoke length left: 231 right: 230
Tension ratio L/R: 66%

I also measured (Park Tool tensiometer) a 26" rear wheel with a BPM. The drive side spokes are at 105 kgf, the left side spokes are at 70 kgf. Which works out to 67%.

Try thinking about it as the spokes being force vectors along the hypotenuse of a pair of right triangles. To make the bases of the triangles (the horizontal force on the rim) equal length with different angles the vertical leg must be longer on one than the other (the spoke tension).

I've no idea what Tension Ratio in that definition means, but its not the ratio of tensions. I used simple maths. The actual tension ratio is the ratio of the two Sines of the angles of the spokes to the plane of the wheel. The actual difference in tension is 1%. Anyway, whatever it is, I've dished all my wheels. Some of them are cassette motors that need to be dished a lot. I've done thousands of miles on two of them with cheap Chinese spokes and rims. In that time I've had one spoke break on the cassette side. My wheel-building is amateurish. I don't use a tension meter or any jig or fixture for trueing.

-dg said:

I also measured (Park Tool tensiometer) a 26" rear wheel with a BPM. The drive side spokes are at 105 kgf, the left side spokes are at 70 kgf. Which works out to 67%.

d8veh said:

The actual difference in tension is 1%.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I'm hoping you missed the bit where I gave the actual tension measurements of a dished rear wheel. Because the other interpretation is that you don't believe the numbers. In which case please conduct your own measurements as I stand by mine.

d8veh said:

I've no idea what Tension Ratio in that definition means, but its not the ratio of tensions. I used simple maths. The actual tension ratio is the ratio of the two Sines of the angles of the spokes to the plane of the wheel. The actual difference in tension is 1%.

Click to expand...

According to Damon Rinard author of the widely used Spokecalc.xls program it is the ratio of the sines of the bracing angles. So we all agree there. So it is very unclear where you get 1% difference since that calculation for your example wheel gives 66% as the ratio. The quote below is from the edd faq.

Damon Rinard said:

What is the tension ratio displayed under "Complete wheel data"?

Tension ratio works based on the fact that, to hold the rim centered in the frame or fork, the horizontal component of the tension in the left spokes must balance the horizontal component of the tension in the right spokes (equal and opposite). Here's how:
Spoke tension is a vector pointed along the length of the spoke. Because the spoke has a bracing angle, you can separate its tension into two components: a lateral component and a radial component. To center the rim, spoke tensions are adjusted until the left and right side lateral components of the spoke tensions are equal.
Two cases illustrate: In a wheel with equal bracing angles (common in front wheels), the rim is centered when the spokes are adjusted to equal tensions; in this example, tension balance is 100%.
However, in a wheel with unequal bracing angles (common for rear wheels and disc brake front wheels), the left and right side spokes are adjusted to different tensions until the lateral components are equal and opposite; in this example, the tension ratio is other than 100%.
It's the lateral components being equal which centers the rim, and spocalc, using this requirement and simple trig on the bracing angles, calculates the tension ratio and displays it for the builder.

Click to expand...

d8veh said:

There's a connection diagram that explains the wires and their function if you click the "download" tab at the bottom here:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/546-s06-250w-imitation-torque-square-wave-controller.html
Ask if you have more questions.

Click to expand...

Hi d8veh and other folk,

I have recently purchased a 'Q100C' bundle of parts from BMS. I didn't buy the complete kit as I:
- wanted to build my own wheel &...
- wanted to use a HWBS rather than the simple and clunky brakes that the kit appears to come with. I ordered an HWBS, a throttle, PAS and Speed Sensors, the LCD meter and the S06S controller.

I've had a dry connection run today, labelling the controller wires as I went along and have run into a few issues. I'm aware of the wiring pic you link to above but notice a few differences with my controller, notably:
1. the only suitable male connector at the controller that might fit the throttle has red, black and green wires rather than red, black and blue as per the diagram. (I've connected this up on the assumption that it's correct because there's no other alternative).

2. there is no controller female connector that corresponds to the miniature triple contact male connector on the HWBS cable (https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-parts/459-hwbs-hidden-wire-brake-sensor-1pcs-parts.html).

There is a set of 2 or the white, regular-sized female sockets that emerge from the same bit of heat shrink and that thus far remain unused. One is a triple connector (red-black-yellow wires) and the other a double connector (yellow and black).

There is no corresponding pair of regular sized female connectors on the BMS diagram and it also cites the controller-side brake connector as having red-yellow-blue wires!

Would I be correct in assuming that the regular-sized female controller connector with the red-black-yellowis in fact intended as the e-brake connector, and I'm just experiencing normal 'variable colour-coding' induced angst?

If that is the car, what might the other regular-sized twin contact female connector be - the one that emerges from the same bit of heat shrink as this putative brake connector? On-off switch? Alternative brake connector for a non-Hall (no +5V) e-brake set-up?

I know it's likely to be a simple answer and I know I would soon find out what is going on if I wired things up to a battery, but I thought it wise to ask first to see if anyone else has had to deal with this apparent inconsistency!

thanks,

Savvas.

Yes, we all deal with the crazy connectors, some better than others.
Did you review the link at the top of this thread that id's the various connectors?
Those colors are correct.
As for the the physical connectors themselves, I don't even try and use the kit suppied ones.
For the main power leads-4 mm bullet connectors
For the phase leads-3.5 mm bullets
For the Hall wires-this;
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__32037__JST_XH_Parallel_Balance_Lead_4S_250mm_2xJST_XH_.html
Cut and solder
All available from Hobbyking or Hobby partz or Progressive RC, etc.

Red black and yellow is the brake connector. Are you sure you have a S06S? Those coliurs correspond with a KU63. The S06S has a 5-way connector for the LCD. The KU63 has a 4-way one.

Make sure that the black and reds match on both sides of the connectors.

Thanks motomech & d8veh,

motomech said:

Yes, we all deal with the crazy connectors, some better than others. Did you review the link at the top of this thread that id's the various connectors? Those colors are correct.

Click to expand...

Yes - I've been looking at the BMS picture of the connectors for weeks. Unfortunately the controller I have definitely has different colours for some of the controller-side connectors. The variation is not that significant really - it just looks like they've substituted black for blue in a couple of the JST sockets. It's not that hard to figure out what's what. I just wanted to be sure because it looks like (as motomech has suggested) I'm going to have to replace one or two of them.

d8veh said:

Red black and yellow is the brake connector. Are you sure you have a S06S? Those coliurs correspond with a KU63. The S06S has a 5-way connector for the LCD. The KU63 has a 4-way one. Make sure that the black and reds match on both sides of the connectors.

Click to expand...

Thanks - that's what I assumed about the triple connector - that it was the brake! I just needed someone to confirm it. The controller I have was indeed ordered from the BMS site as the S06S, was labelled as such on the invoice and is labelled on the case as an 'S06S Torque Simulation Controller'. The LCD connector is a 5 pin - red, blue, black, green, yellow - so it does sound like I have an S06S! Some of the blue wires just seem to have become confused with black in the assembly process. Or maybe the BMS reference pic is a bit out of date...

I also asked about the remaining 2-pin female connector that does not seem to be represented in the pic from the BMS site. I've only just noticed that although the red-yellow-black wires for 3-pin connector (that d8veh has confirmed as the brake) and the additional yellow & black wires that terminate at the 2-pin socket all emerge from the same bit of heat shrink, there are in fact only 3 wires in all (red, yellow & black) that exit and go through the grommet on the controller case at the other end. Clearly the pairs of yellow and black wires are tapped or joined inside the heat shrink. This suggests to me that the 2-pin connector is simply an alternative e-brake option for a non-hall brake switch (one that doesn't require the +5V supply). Sound right?

Thanks,

Savvas.

Ok, I have a 2 week old SO6S sitting in my lap and the connectors are exactly as shown in the chart. The 3 wire connectors are as follows:
blu. blk. red-throttle
blk. wht. red-speed sensor
blk. br. yellow-PAS
blu.red yellow(2 Pairs)-brake sensor.
There is also(not shown), a 2 wire connector:
blu.blk-unknown

What you are describing sounds like the KU63/KU65 controller;
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/692-ku63-65-250w-6mosfets-controllerl-ebike-kit.html

Is it possible that you are confusing the LCD connector with the Hall connector(same colors).
Is it the JTX type that plugs into the display lead?

I just wired my Q100 up and found that the throttle wires were reversed. I changed them around and voila', the little motor spins merrily away. Took a bit of head scratching to figure it out. I think the controller is one of those KU6x type. It has 4 wires going to an led switch.
otherDoc