Using a bbs02 motor with third party controller and CA

Hi, I recently burnt out my bbs02 48v 750w controller, and then succesfully repaired it and it is now working fine!

Unfortunately now I haven't got an excuse to buy a new controller and cycle analyst!

What I would like is full control with a cycle analyst on a bbs02. I know this has been tried by using the existing controller in a thread on this forum. But what I would like help with is to work out if it is possible to take out the bbs02 controller from inside the motor, and wire a normal controller to it which has a cycle analyst plug.

The motor has wires for hall sensors which I could use and also a 24 point cadence sensor. Which I should be able to use.

Can anyone suggest a suitable controller that I could use to replace the stock controller and screen.? I would need one with an external speed sensor for the wheel as some controllers use the hub motor to calculate the speed as 1 rpm = a set distance, but with my mid drive it will depend what gear I am in.

I am in the uk and not sure which supplier will be best. The bbs02 Is rated at 48v 25A 750W. Also I need to know if the new controller can limit the motor RPM.

Thanks guys

There are plenty of external controllers that could do this job. You really only need a 6FET controller with 3077 fets. This one would work fine.http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=38&product_id=77

In relation to using the existing PAS sensor, the controller wont handle the BBS stock unit however a CA3 can handle control over the stock PAS sensor.

Using the CA3 as a control interface, you could certainly control RPM. Would be an interesting project.

i might have a look at the end of the month when i get paid in investing in the controller and a Cycle analyst.
Thanks for the recomendation.

No problems. Just make sure you order the CA3, not a CA2. Also if you are not familiar with the CA3, download the manual and start reading. The CA3 is practically a hobby project in its own right.

im glad you said order the CA3 and not the CA2 haha

I've got a 30A 48V kelly controller coming in soon. I'll post up A wiring diagram in this thread once i get the controller and figure it out.

I also have a cell_man 9FET 3077 just sitting here. Might try that if the kelly is unsatisfactory, but i bought the kelly with the promise of the torque throttle mode ( yay, wheelie control! ) and the 'economy' function which can half the current with a button. IMHO this is better than futzing with 2 button interface of the CA.

neptronix said:

i bought the kelly with the promise of .... the 'economy' function which can half the current with a button. IMHO this is better than futzing with 2 button interface of the CA.

Click to expand...

??
CA2/CA3 external three position switch to select max current limit.
CA3 external preset switch to select preset (many parameter settings).
No futzing required.

Interested to see how this thread develops. I have a Lyen 6FET 4110 mini-monster I might be willing to experiment with, especially with 16S LiPo.

teklektik said:

neptronix said:

i bought the kelly with the promise of .... the 'economy' function which can half the current with a button. IMHO this is better than futzing with 2 button interface of the CA.

Click to expand...

??
CA2/CA3 external three position switch to select max current limit.
CA3 external preset switch to select preset (many parameter settings).
No futzing required.

Click to expand...

Oh, i had no idea you could do that, my bad..

I think i still would rather have that happen natively in the controller though.

New Infineon controller has arrived! Initial tests connected to the bbs02 motor are positive. Figured out the hall sensors and tested it out in the garage and it seems to work. So tomorrow I shall finish wiring it properly and make more tests and figure out the temperature sensor if one exists inside the motor.

teslanv said:

Interested to see how this thread develops. I have a Lyen 6FET 4110 mini-monster I might be willing to experiment with, especially with 16S LiPo.

Click to expand...

That's what I plan on trying once I have enough funds to get a bbs02

ac246 said:

New Infineon controller has arrived! Initial tests connected to the bbs02 motor are positive. Figured out the hall sensors and tested it out in the garage and it seems to work. So tomorrow I shall finish wiring it properly and make more tests and figure out the temperature sensor if one exists inside the motor.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the report. Mind saving me a little time and sharing the hall wiring diagram or correlation?

fyi, the temperature on the outside stator-side case of mine never gets further than 140F / 60C. If you wanted to add a temp sensor because you couldn't find one and had to mount it to the case, go with a 120F limit if the sensor is on the controller side, or 140F limit if you put the sensor on the stator side.

Hi neptronix,
Yes i will put on the definite wiring configuration later, i literally connected it up using a justified guess, and it worked first time, i chopped the small connector off of the original controller and used connector blocks to connect up the wires. i have not yet tried to do anything with the cadence sensor. The Infineon controller i bought from em3ev seems to be good so far but it seems to cause excessive humming noise. i know the BBS02 is not a noisy motor, but this now makes a bit of noise. may be as i have the covers off it still, otherwise i may have the hall sensors wired up wrong. I will experiment further today. here is how i currently have it and test rode it with.

I think the hall sensors are as follows,
Controller hall sensor connection
Yellow Grey
Green Blue
Blue White
Red Red (5v)
Black Black (0v)

Have played about with the different combinations of phase and hall wiring and found there are three combinations that work well forwards and three pointlessly in reverse. But yet to test drive it to see if it makes any difference using a different rotation to the first time. I don't think it will though... The pedal sensor input works on the CA 3 from the bbs02. In the bbs02 there is a connector with red black grey and white
Wire the red and black into the same red and black as the hall sensors, 5v supply. And then the white wire is connected to the blue DIR terminal on the CA and the Grey wire is connected to the yellow PAS terminal on the CA torque sensor plug. Reversing these results in the motor working when pedaling in reverse.

Edit: If you find yours works in reverse then either reverse the wires or on the CA you need to change a setting. In PAS setup menu, change DIr Plrty from Fwd to Rev or vice versa

You need to check how many Watts you are drawing with the chain off. Needs to be under 100W and probably closer to 50W. This will tell you if you have the halls correct. You can get a false positive when setting hall sensors by trial and error. The motor will run ok but will draw high power even unloaded. I believe the stock controller is a sine wave controller which is part of the reason why the drives are so quite.

I tried all 36 potential combinations and the the three combinations that ran smooth,they all seem to draw about 60 watts while the chain is off.
I have test rode 2 of the combinations and both are quite loud. I will try the third one tomorrow. Drew about 1300 watts at one point while riding and it accelerates very nicely. I still need to tweek the settings to make sure it doesn't throw me off the back!

Is it possible to burn out the motor by putting too much power through it? Or will it only draw what it wants? Aslong as it does not overheat.

Every Bafang hub motor that I have wired to the external controller you are using had the yellow and green phase wires swapped (and the yellow and green hall wires swapped too) Since the phase wires have the same colour coding as a normal controller, my starting point on the phase wires would be yellow>green, green>yellow, blue>blue. Providing the motor then ran in the correct direction, I would then try all the hall combos until you found the smooth operation combo.


You could well put too much power through the motor with that controller depending on what model it is. I presume it is the 6FET 3077 infineon which has a 25A limit. This will be spot on for the drive and should see around 1300W max with 48V nominal battery.

When you have it goin, it would be great to see and listen to a video. I am really interested to hear how much noisier the drive is.

i am using the 9 fet IRFB3077 Infineon Controller For Motors With Hall Sensors from EM3EV

I Bought the 9 fet as an extra precaution so that it might be more forgiving. i am using a cycle analyst so i can program in some limits

i will definitely look at making a video this week. if it is not possible to make the motor any quieter with a different hall phase combination then i will look at buying a sine controller.

Any recommendations for a sine wave controller which has a CA3 plug?

Went for a nice test ride, 12 miles in 45 minutes, mostly using throttle, and some pedaling to help it in places. i dont think it is quite right yet as according to the cycle analyst i am using a lot of power with less effect compared to the stock bbs02 25A controller. i have taken some photos of my CA after my ride, so i will summarise the info at the end.
I noticed that most of the time when even riding on the flat i was pulling 20 amps or around 1000 watts very easily. definately not able to pull me up my local steep hill as good as the stock controller. i suspect i have a problem with the hall sensors still

The controller does not get hot atall, but the temperature on the screen seems to say 17 degrees and sometimes fluctuates down to 6 degrees. i do not yet have a temperature sensor on the motor but that was fairly warm to the touch. definately need to look at the hall sensors again, might open up the motor to check the actual hall sensor positions and see if i can get a 100% definate answer on the combination.

with the bike in gear 8 which is an 11 tooth cog, the bike draws 160 watts just to spin the wheel. but with the chain off it is about 60 watts.
here are the CA stats:

48.6V,
12.3Miles,
7.06Ah,
Watt-hrs 336.43,
Wh/Mi 27.4,
avg RPM 47.7,
Amax 32.81,
Vmin 17.2 I doubt my battery could have got this low.. maybe when one of my crimps pulled apart and crackled while i was at full throttle.
MaxS 42.7 I definately did not ride 42.7mph and the normal speed seems to be about right.
Avg 12.5
59m04s
TripMi 12.313
Rbat 0.160 ohms

ac246 said:

with the bike in gear 8 which is an 11 tooth cog, the bike draws 160 watts just to spin the wheel. but with the chain off it is about 60 watts.

Click to expand...

I measured mine with the stock controller for a comparison. Mine is a 44 tooth chain ring and 11 tooth on the rear spinning a 29er wheel with White Industries hub.

Drew 90W driving the wheel and 40W with the chain off.

my numbers definately sound too high then

Hi ac246

Did you ever get this working correct with similar power numbers to the stock controller?
I would like to ditch my stock controller due to some of the undocumented features of the stock controller.

Thanks

Spaceball

This device seems might be a less expensive and useful on of my BBSHD's.
I've searched but can't any reference to which wire in the harness might be used as the "ignition " wire.

http://www.batt-man.com/images/Batt-man%20manual.pdf

Spaceball said:

Hi ac246

Did you ever get this working correct with similar power numbers to the stock controller?
I would like to ditch my stock controller due to some of the undocumented features of the stock controller.

Thanks

Spaceball

Click to expand...

I wanted to report what I discovered mating the Lyen/CAV3 to the BBS02. Plugging it all up was not a problem, very easy. I carefully adjusted the CAV3 THO ramp up and calibrated the actual throttle I used.

Phase/Hall found was correct and I was very stoked for a maiden ride! Rut oh! Old sawtooth controller simply sounds like a “buzz saw”.

It wasn’t motor timing, it’s the nasty sawtooth waveform. By the time it resonates through the solid mounting of the drive unit into my fairly hard Aluminum Cannondale frame it’s just about as irritating noise as can be… Ugh!

Up side is that CAV3 provided everything I wanted/needed for more of a throttle based bike and I’m sure the PAS would’ve worked but that damn sound is ugly. Bafang’s most definitely using a sine wave controller on these units.