Mxus 3000 vs Cromotor?

macribs · Mar 2, 2015

What sets these two beasts apart?

Been waiting to see some tests on this matter but AFAIK there are no tests yet. Nor do the simulator have either cro or mxus.
Would be sweet to see some real world tests as well as dyno benchmark test.

There are a few mxus bikes riding around. And I at least one of [strike](madin88)[/strike] the owners is also the proud owner of an cromotor bike.
Would be sweet to see them side by side. Real world drag race, hill climb etc. And see how they hold up. Who is strongest in pure power. Who gets the best mileage. And who handles heat the best.

ElectroRider · Mar 2, 2015

Hi, this isn't a very scientific test but may be of some interest. With the Mxus 3T motor in a 20" wheel using Turnigy hardcase 4s (22s 10ah) batteries and the adaptto Max-e controller on the highest settings the maximum speed reached was 57.3 mph

and the fastest speed reached with the Cromotor V2 with the same wheel size, voltage and controller settings but different bike frame was 54.4 mph

But the main difference is that the acceleration and regen with the cromotor is MUCH stronger than the 3T Mxus which is to be expected so a better comparison would have to be done with the 4T Mxus.

ElectroRider

Doctorbass · Mar 2, 2015

ElectroRider said:
Hi, this isn't a very scientific test but may be of some interest. With the Mxus 3T motor in a 20" wheel using Turnigy hardcase 4s (22s 10ah) batteries and the adaptto Max-e controller on the highest settings the maximum speed reached was 57.3 mph

and the fastest speed reached with the Cromotor V2 with the same wheel size, voltage and controller settings but different bike frame was 54.4 mph
View attachment 1

But the main difference is that the acceleration and regen with the cromotor is MUCH stronger than the 3T Mxus which is to be expected so a better comparison would have to be done with the 4T Mxus.

ElectroRider

Thanks electrorider,

I see that the Cro V2 you used only draw 6.6kW for 54.4mph and that the MXUS draw 10.6kW for 57.3mph.

That's a huge difference for a 3mph diff ! it's about 4kW more for 3mph faster...

This let me wonder if the MXUS stator is saturating and the Cro v2 is not... but I doubt.. because with my very fast X5 that only have a 32mm stator width with 2T and 20" wheel and no OVS on my max e I got 10.5hp at the wheel with 10.5 kW...

I also saw that the MXUS was drawing 68Wh per km and the Cro v2 was 36Wh/km for about the same distance.. these are interesting results!

You said the setting was the same on the Max-E.. but was the autosetting of the motor finetuned after ? jfor both motor? and what was the OVS setting for both?

If the MXUS was slower but needed to have the OVS activated this might be the cause of the 4kW more of low efficiency area with the OVS?

I guess the cromotor V2 you have is a kv of 9.3 right?

Doc

ElectroRider · Mar 2, 2015

Hey Doc, I'm glad I was using your torque arms when reaching those speeds :shock:

, yes the Cromotor is the standard 9.3kw version and the ovs setting for both was set to ovs 7 :twisted:

, and I didn't fine tune the settings after auto detect for both motors.

Drunkskunk · Mar 2, 2015

Dude, thanks for posting those results. I've been toying with the idea of grabbing a MXUS 3000 for grins, but I think I'll skip it and grab a Cromotor.

cwah · Mar 2, 2015

Mxus and cromotor should both be at the 90% efficiency band, so difference between them should be minimal

teslanv · Mar 3, 2015

A Trip to Vancouver, BC is in order I think.

No way the MXUS needs 10KW to get 57 MPH. I have been doing 50 MPH on an 18FETx4110 Lyen Controller at around 4 KW. It's the V2, which is more efficient than the V1.

ElectroRider · Mar 3, 2015

teslanv said:
I have been doing 50 MPH on an 18FETx4110 Lyen Controller at around 4 KW. It's the V2, which is more efficient than the V1.

I think it's because I used such a high ovs setting on the controller, because when using 24s on a 24fet 4110 controller I was getting around 3.3kw at 53 Mph with the Cromotor, so 4kw at 50 Mph with the Mxus sounds about right, but I have to say that the Mxus 3000 really is a great powerful motor and definitely worth the money, it's the motor I use the most at the moment.

ElectroRider

teslanv · Mar 3, 2015

I have no doubts that the Cromotor is the more powerful and higher efficiency motor. It is also nearly double the cost of the MXUS motor, and several lbs heavier.

Brake · Mar 3, 2015

I would have to assume that the acceleration was different between the two tests. Great to see some top speed numbers though. And verifying the combination of the max e and mxus 3T. Thanks for posting.

madin88 · Mar 4, 2015

ElectroRider said:
But the main difference is that the acceleration and regen with the cromotor is MUCH stronger than the 3T Mxus which is to be expected so a better comparison would have to be done with the 4T Mxus.
ElectroRider

same current settings :?:

ElectroRider · Mar 4, 2015

Yes with exactly the same current settings all I did was move the controller to another frame with the other motor and did auto detect again.

ElectrRider

madin88 · Mar 4, 2015

ElectroRider said:
Yes with exactly the same current settings all I did was move the controller to another frame with the other motor and did auto detect again.

ElectrRider

this makes absolutely no sense because of different turn counts. no wonder the cromotor has much higher torque.
you also need to upgrade phase wires about same percentage as increased current (1,33x). further stock wires have only 2,5mm² and you will loose some torque. teslanv has reported more punch after wire upgrade what i also noticed

I have done many km on bikes with cromtor and now also about 50km with MXUS 4T and i felt almost no difference. what i have noticed is MXUS heats up quicker but it also has 2-3kg less mass.
will soon make a testride: my brother with cromotor bike and i with mxus. side by side same track route. this will give more MEANINGFUL results.

\/ampa · Mar 4, 2015

ElectroRider said:
Yes with exactly the same current settings all I did was move the controller to another frame with the other motor and did auto detect again.

ElectrRider

Do you have used a FOC controller? Becouse FOC has many motor specific tuning settings.

ElectroRider · Mar 4, 2015

madin88 said:
this makes absolutely no sense because of different turn counts. no wonder the cromotor has much higher torque.
you also need to upgrade phase wires about same percentage as increased current (1,33x). further stock wires have only 2,5mm² and you will loose some torque. teslanv has reported more punch after wire upgrade what i also noticed

I have done many km on bikes with cromtor and now also about 50km with MXUS 4T and i felt almost no difference. what i have noticed is MXUS heats up quicker but it also has 2-3kg less mass.
will soon make a testride: my brother with cromotor bike and i with mxus. side by side same track route. this will give more MEANINGFUL results.

Exactly, that's what I said in my first post! I was just posting a fun observation between the 3T and 4T motors because not many people are able to compare them yet, but obviously the only way to compare them equally would be to use the 4T Mxus Vs the Cromotor, using the same batteries, controller etc. I look forward to your future comparison with more meaningful results

ElectroRider

Doctorbass · Mar 4, 2015

This thread Is becoming really interesting guys :wink:

Doc

teslanv · Mar 4, 2015

Doctorbass said:
This thread Is becoming really interesting guys :wink:

Doc

Agreed.

ElectroRider said:
obviously the only way to compare them equally would be to use the 4T Mxus Vs the Cromotor, using the same batteries, controller etc.

Yes, the MXUS 4T is a ~9.0Kv motor, and the Standard Cromotor is a 9.3Kv motor, so that would be the closest comparison.

It should also be noted that the MXUS comes standard with 2.5mm2 phase wires, while the Cromotor comes with 11AWG (4mm2) Phase wires, so some phase current limitations will be noticed with the stock wires on the MXUS. This is why both Madin88 and myself chose to upgrade the phases. The MXUS' stock phase wires are made of high-quality silver-coated copper, but still their size restricts phase amps at higher power levels. I was impressed, however that I was able to easily achieve 50 MPH even with the stock phase wires. This is not surprising, given the ~4Kw Power level required for this speed. Once you get up into the 10KW power levels, a phase wire upgrade will be crucial to minimize the risk of shorting the phases.

The one thing many will overlook with high-performance systems is how much difference a smaller tire will make. Both of these motors are much happier running smaller tires at higher RPM's. I have my MXUS 3T in a 21.5" Moped Tire, and it just eats up the pavement. The smaller tire also increases the effective thrust, and minimized current draw on start-up. For street riding, I would highly encourage any builder to consider Moped Rims and tires, not only for their size, but general road performance as well.

Doctorbass · Mar 4, 2015

however that I was able to easily achieve 50 MPH even with the stock phase wires

The most difference will be seen at startup.

when reaching high speed the phase current usually decrease and become close to the batt current.

if at start up you get 250A phase when you will reach top speed it should be somewhere half or 1/3 of that.

The phase current don't have a significant effect on your top speed.

mainly top speed depend on the batt current :wink:

Here is a VERY INTERESTING! thread that SAFE an epic member of E-S did and some representation:

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/13629-concepts-ebike-propulsion?page=10

Animation%20Motor%20Current%20over%20Battery%20Current.gif

ElectroRider · Mar 4, 2015

\/ampa said:
Do you have used a FOC controller? Becouse FOC has many motor specific tuning settings.

Yes but I honestly wouldn't know where to start, I'll see if I can find any recommended settings for this particular motor.

John in CR · Mar 4, 2015

The way to compare such similar motors is gather the relatively simple data required for inclusion in Miles motor comparison spreadsheet. That will give you all the performance info required leaving the balance in non-performance stuff like stator coatings, wire insulation, axle size, and wire exit type, etc. It's high time ESers move away from reliance on anecdotal evidence.

flathill · Mar 4, 2015

Yup someones gut feeling or ill devised test can kill sales. We need hard data. I am really interested in seeing data on these two motors. Is the cromotor worth the added cost and weight?

Doctorbass · Mar 4, 2015

flathill said:
Is the cromotor worth the added cost and weight?

That's effectivly the question!

What can 5mm more stator and better copper fill and stronger axel can do!

Doc

madin88 · Mar 5, 2015

Doctorbass said:
[

That's effectivly the question!

What can 5mm more stator and better copper fill and stronger axel can do!

Doc

isn't cromotor stator only 48mm since V2?
copper fill is 18x4 vs 16x4 so about 12% difference there.

striker54 · Mar 5, 2015

madin88 said:
isn't cromotor stator only 48mm since V2?
copper fill is 18x4 vs 16x4 so about 12% difference there.

50mm according with http://greyborgusa.com/hubzilla-v3-tech-specs/

madin88 · Mar 5, 2015

here has one measured it to 48,32mm

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55211

also it has over 12kg and not 11kg! never trust alone on vendor informations

Mxus 3000 vs Cromotor?

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