hold my hand please :)

dakh · May 23, 2015

Hi folks,
Total newb here, just wanted to run my build plan by folks who actually know this stuff.

I currently have a 201 wind Q100 front laced up to 700c rim, 48v controller from ebikelife and a 2x Turnigy 6s 5Ah packs. This is all rolling inside a steel frame, disc brake Jamis Coda Elite. I live in Seattle, so some hills out there, some pretty long mellow slope, a few pretty steep ones, one right by my house.

My goals are to keep it as simple as possible, and build something that speeds up my commutes. I don't want to geek out on this stuff much, nor do I want to set land speed records. I just want a robust fire and forget setup that is pretty quick. 150lbs and I can produce some wattage myself so the short super steep hills are not such a big problem, I can mash those to help out the motor.

Now, I got a couple of 14s5p Tesla packs form okashira here. The issue with my current setup is that it signs off a bit too early, I need it to keep adding power for maybe another 5mph if not 7. Effectively I want something that will be maxed out by amperage not by RPM except for going downhill. I want to max out on amps on flat ground with me contributing as much as I'd normally be doing sans motor.

So.. Here's what I have and what I am planning to get (and what I have no idea what to do with)

1. Keep the current 201 Cute for now since with 14s pack it'll probably be about as fast as I need it to be vs 12s pack that is a bit frustrating on the top end. Then upgrade to a slightly faster rear mini. I was thinking about getting mid drive first but now that I've experienced my current setup I'm not so worried about overheating going up hills. Will probably inject some ATF into the motor, get a spare ready to put in, and see what happens.

2. Just got a 58.8V 5A charger that em3ev sells, and I plan to not do any balancing until it's needed, which might not be in a while. Looks to me I'll be typically using less than 50% of my 800Wh pack capacity per commute (Beacon Hill to Bellevue, ~12 miles, mostly flat with some hills).

3. I have no idea what to get for controller. That's the biggest question so far. Seems like if I could upgrade the FETs and capacitors on the current 48v one, it could handle moderate amperage in 60V? I'd rather just buy something that works but they all seem to be either not exactly plug and play or way bigger in size than what I have. I want something pretty compact that can go to 18A or so? Money not much of a concern as long as it works good.

4. I just want twist throttle, no regen, pedal assist, cruise control or any of whatever other fluff that's out there. The current controller which is I think the same as ebikelife sells works just fine but has too many BS wires coming out of it

I'm tempted to just chop the unused ones.

5. Just a voltage/amp indicator for "fuel gauge". "GT Power amp meter" is sitting here waiting for remote shunt setup mod. Basically I'm planning on bulk charging only and using the volt/amp meter for keeping batteries in check. Seems like those Tesla cells can handle some abuse so I'm thinking I can get away with keeping things simple.

Am I about to shoot myself in the foot? Controller reco's? What mini rear hub motor is best for 14s setup, nothing extreme just reliable ~20A/1KW setup that can handle some hills and would be current limited on flats? I want to keep the bike pretty light..

Long post sorry, thanks in advance for any help. I promise to post pictures and impressions

d8veh · May 23, 2015

It would be easier to upgrade the motor to a 260 rpm Q100H. Then you can keep your present controller and battery. You can buy just the bare motor, and swap the cores, which is about 15 minutes work.

The 36v 260 rpm motor will become a 312 rpm one at 12S, which will give an on the road speed of about 24 mph. Your 201 rpm at 14S will become a 281 rpm one.

You didn't say what current you're presently running at. If you want a bit more, you can add a bit of solder to the shunt in the controller. With the higher speed motor, the controller will be providing the maximum current for more of the time, so it will run quite hot, so try and get it out into the airflow rather than stuffed in a bag.

If you were to start from the beginning, the 09 bottle battery with the included 20A sinewave controller and a Q100H or Q128H makes a very neat and convenient installation.

dakh · May 23, 2015

Thanks for your reply d8veh. Those 14s5p Tesla packs are at this point a done deal. I really don't want to screw around with LiPo stuff to be honest, plus with almost twice daily charge cycle those won't last much at all.

So I'm trying to build something around those Tesla packs. I think I should have just gotten 12s5p ones (not that I can't lop off a couple cells at the end but hey, I paid for them

), seems like 12s configuration is much more common. But oh well.

So how about 260rpm Q100 on a 14s pack?

dakh · May 23, 2015

Oh yea, I run whatever that controller comes with stock, I think 14A. The way I ride, I think I'll rip the bottle holder lugs out of the frame pretty quickly with a heavy battery pack

Planning on building some robust cage clamping to the triangle to hold batteries. What Wh do those bottle batteries deliver?

My reasons for getting Tesla packs were that they promise ridiculous charge cycle count if used correctly and offer the highest energy density available. Which supports my goal for lightweight commuter bike (that I can still hang on a city bus rack if I wanted) that'll just keep plugging away for a few years.

motomech · May 23, 2015

dakh said:
Hi folks,
Total newb here, just wanted to run my build plan by folks who actually know this stuff.

I currently have a 201 wind Q100 front laced up to 700c rim, 48v controller from ebikelife and a 2x Turnigy 6s 5Ah packs. This is all rolling inside a steel frame, disc brake Jamis Coda Elite. I live in Seattle, so some hills out there, some pretty long mellow slope, a few pretty steep ones, one right by my house.

My goals are to keep it as simple as possible, and build something that speeds up my commutes. I don't want to geek out on this stuff much, nor do I want to set land speed records. I just want a robust fire and forget setup that is pretty quick. 150lbs and I can produce some wattage myself so the short super steep hills are not such a big problem, I can mash those to help out the motor.

Now, I got a couple of 14s5p Tesla packs form okashira here. The issue with my current setup is that it signs off a bit too early, I need it to keep adding power for maybe another 5mph if not 7. Effectively I want something that will be maxed out by amperage not by RPM except for going downhill. I want to max out on amps on flat ground with me contributing as much as I'd normally be doing sans motor.

So.. Here's what I have and what I am planning to get (and what I have no idea what to do with)

1. Keep the current 201 Cute for now since with 14s pack it'll probably be about as fast as I need it to be vs 12s pack that is a bit frustrating on the top end. Then upgrade to a slightly faster rear mini. I was thinking about getting mid drive first but now that I've experienced my current setup I'm not so worried about overheating going up hills. Will probably inject some ATF into the motor, get a spare ready to put in, and see what happens.

2. Just got a 58.8V 5A charger that em3ev sells, and I plan to not do any balancing until it's needed, which might not be in a while. Looks to me I'll be typically using less than 50% of my 800Wh pack capacity per commute (Beacon Hill to Bellevue, ~12 miles, mostly flat with some hills).

3. I have no idea what to get for controller. That's the biggest question so far. Seems like if I could upgrade the FETs and capacitors on the current 48v one, it could handle moderate amperage in 60V? I'd rather just buy something that works but they all seem to be either not exactly plug and play or way bigger in size than what I have. I want something pretty compact that can go to 18A or so? Money not much of a concern as long as it works good.

4. I just want twist throttle, no regen, pedal assist, cruise control or any of whatever other fluff that's out there. The current controller which is I think the same as ebikelife sells works just fine but has too many BS wires coming out of it I'm tempted to just chop the unused ones.

5. Just a voltage/amp indicator for "fuel gauge". "GT Power amp meter" is sitting here waiting for remote shunt setup mod. Basically I'm planning on bulk charging only and using the volt/amp meter for keeping batteries in check. Seems like those Tesla cells can handle some abuse so I'm thinking I can get away with keeping things simple.

Am I about to shoot myself in the foot? Controller reco's? What mini rear hub motor is best for 14s setup, nothing extreme just reliable ~20A/1KW setup that can handle some hills and would be current limited on flats? I want to keep the bike pretty light..

Long post sorry, thanks in advance for any help. I promise to post pictures and impressions

If your controller is a 48V model from Elifebike, then it must be the at least the 350W 9-FET or the 500W 9-FET. Both have 63V caps and might last @ the top-charge Voltage of that Tesla pack. I never noticed much difference between the 17A and the 19A ELB 9 FEts.
If you smoke your controller, buy an 6-FET Infineon from either Grin or Lynn. I have used a 25A infineon on a Cute, but it is really too much and causes ¨hammering¨. Stick to 20A max.
Going from 12S to 14S is not going to add 5 to 7 mph, more like 3 to 4 mph.

dogman dan · May 23, 2015

My thoughts too. Run that controller on 58v fully charged, and see if that works for you. If not, perhaps try a faster wind motor. What you say you want, you'll get with 8v more.

999zip999 · May 23, 2015

Do you have sense wires on the tesla pack for ez monitoring with a cellog or something ?

dakh · May 23, 2015

Wow, thanks a lot guys for wading through my post and responding. You're awesome!

Took the controller apart (gotta get some thermal paste now to put it back together). It has 6 MOSFETs, and they're labeled RU7088R. So 70V 80A? One big capacitor is labeled 63V, a few smaller ones are 25V and 50V. Am I good to run 58.8V through that?

Cellog huh. So should I get two of these http://www.progressiverc.com/celllog-8s.html and hook up to balance leads from the pack to keep an eye on it?

If I wanted to get Lyon's controller is this the one to get? http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18744 . Looks very similar to what I have. Mine is marked 500W 48V, "ELB2014", current limit 14A.

One more question. What's a good way to figure out what the real amperage is that I'm running? That GT amp meter from what I gather isn't very accurate. Will Cellog give accurate results?

Thanks again for all the help!

dakh · May 23, 2015

I hear Cellog doesn't have even drain from the cells so it'll get them out of balance :/ Looks like I should be maybe using it sparingly? Actually what's wrong with just measuring stuff with a multimeter once in a while?

d8veh · May 24, 2015

dakh said:
So how about 260rpm Q100 on a 14s pack?

That changes it to a 364 rpm motor. I would say that it's much too fast for that little motor - OK for a 20" wherl, but not a 700c one. It will try and spin to 30 mph. For that, you need 1200 - 1500w ftom your battery. The Q100 is a 250w motor!

dakh · May 24, 2015

d8veh said:
That changes it to a 364 rpm motor. I would say that it's much too fast for that little motor - OK for a 20" wherl, but not a 700c one. It will try and spin to 30 mph. For that, you need 1200 - 1500w ftom your battery. The Q100 is a 250w motor!

Heh, mine says 350W on it AFAIR but I get your drift. If I'm running only 14A with a 14s pack that's ~800W. Add 150-200W of my pedaling. I'm just not sure where is the sweet spot with climbing ability and speed. They're cheap enough to experiment I guess...

d8veh · May 24, 2015

If you're light, it'll be OK, but you need to keep the speed up to stop the motor and controller ftom over-heating.

Ykick · May 24, 2015

d8veh is right. Don't attempt to run these mini motors with high current at the wrong RPM for very long. They do not shed heat very well since they're spinning around inside the flange housing.

dakh · Jun 4, 2015

Ok I'll re-use this thread for trying to resolve various issues.. Until I have time to create an actual bike build thread with pictures and all that.

GT Power Meter. Says can handle up to 60V. So I made this nifty thing that goes between the battery and the controller. With a fuse on one wire and a shunt on the other. The bugger doesn't work at 56V (14s battery). Screen lights up but nothing is displayed. Works just fine off a 6s brick. Actually works for a second off the 14s battery just after I disconnect it

Did I get a dud or they're all like that? I'm looking for a simple way to monitor whole pack voltage and a current meter.

motomech · Jun 4, 2015

I seem to recall others having problems running the GT Power Meter at near it's upper range.
Here's my take on meters.
I started out with a Cycle Analyst, great piece of equipment that was a good learning tool.
Then I decided I didn't really need all that info and deleted the external speed sensor, then the shunt...
These days all I have, aside from a good LVC on my controllers, is a $10 2-wire mini-voltmeter from Ebay.
It's my "gas gauge", and for me, it's all I need.

dakh · Jun 4, 2015

Interesting, that's what I thought to the voltage on the battery is the best indicator. But say if I wanted to solder up the shunt on the controller to make it juice up 18A instead of 14A, I don't have anything I can use to measure how much did I modify the shunt. I hear you say "get the right controller to begin with" and yea that's probably what I should do.

Thanks for the input, actually even better a validation of my line of thinking about this.

d8veh · Jun 5, 2015

My GT Power meter wouldn't work at 48v, but wss fine at 36v.

You can measure the current with a piece of battery wire and a voltmeter. If you use a 10 cm bit of 14g wire, the voltage drop in mV is approximately equal to the number of amps. Accuracy doesn't really matter. It's the percentage difference after you solder the shunt that matters. Say your 14A showed 12 mV drop before and 14 mV after, that's a 16.7% increase, so your new current is 16.3A.

dakh · Jun 5, 2015

d8veh said:
My GT Power meter wouldn't work at 48v, but wss fine at 36v.

You can measure the current with a piece of battery wire and a voltmeter. If you use a 10 cm bit of 14g wire, the voltage drop in mV is approximately equal to the number of amps. Accuracy doesn't really matter. It's the percentage difference after you solder the shunt that matters. Say your 14A showed 12 mV drop before and 14 mV after, that's a 16.7% increase, so your new current is 16.3A.

Neat, thank you! I'll probably just do that! One more thing I was curious about is if I'm RPM limited or current limited at top speed. That's another motivation for having a working current meter. But I think that one I can try to just do by the seat of the pants, it's fairly clear to me the motor signed off on RPM and is not contributing max power. Would love to see an instrument verification of that though.

Ykick · Jun 5, 2015

So frustrating how the Chinese keep shaving margins and cutting corners on products until they’re nothing like the product originally produced.

I’ve got older GT (Turnigy) Power meters which work fine up to nearly 70V. Sucks to hear people have bought more recent versions and unable to measure 48V. SOB…

btw OP, I run a couple 201 RPM Q100/128 mini-motors in 700c/27.5" wheels. They top out about 22-24 MPH flat, level, no wind on 16S RC Lipo. That's about 67V HOC (hot off the charger). I would not be very happy running on a standard 48V battery pack but the higher voltage seems to be holding up fine (now in year 2) and the bikes climb hills like no tomorrow.

dakh · Jun 5, 2015

Ykick said:
So frustrating how the Chinese keep shaving margins and cutting corners on products until they’re nothing like the product originally produced.

I’ve got older GT (Turnigy) Power meters which work fine up to nearly 70V. Sucks to hear people have bought more recent versions and unable to measure 48V. SOB…

btw OP, I run a couple 201 RPM Q100/128 mini-motors in 700c/27.5" wheels. They top out about 22-24 MPH flat, level, no wind on 16S RC Lipo. That's about 67V HOC (hot off the charger). I would not be very happy running on a standard 48V battery pack but the higher voltage seems to be holding up fine (now in year 2) and the bikes climb hills like no tomorrow.

That's good to know thank you. I will get some apps on my phone to see how fast my rig currently is on flat at full charge.

hold my hand please :)

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