newb not so ultimate commuter build

Catching up here, I already have 3 iterations of this thing done and there's going to be more I'm sure.

At some point I realized e-bike might be the most badass commuting solution for the city (Seattle-Bellevue in my case). So I went off to get my feet wet with a front wheel Cute Q100 from this almost too nice Russell dude here who not only sold me the wheel and motor but controller, throttle, and some other essentials thrown in, as well as a piece of paper that outlined all the controller connections.

For the base bike I absolutely wanted disk brakes and steel frame. I race motorcycles as a hobby and I raced a few mountain bike enduros too so I'm too used to disk brakes, and I kinda learned to hate non-suspension aluminum frames since I'm not a youngster anymore and I like the supple feel of steel frames. Injuries accumulate over time too so I don't like my battle scars rattled up by aluminum frame for no good reason. Titanium is not in the budget (and kinda pointless for what I want, a couple pounds don't move the needle enough), carbon I think is too fragile to deal with possible clamps across the frame tubes for battery mounts and such. Plus steel frames usually have nice small diameter round tubes so mounting shit to them is easier.

Anyway I got just the bike for a steal of a deal on local CL, Jamis Coda Elite for $350, whew. Had to do a few tweaks to it, I like FSA Metropolis handlebars if I'm not running traditional road bars (my usual commuter bike is Kona Honky Inc.), fenders, rear rack, lights. The usual stuff that precipitates recycling a bunch of cardboard with Amazon stickers all over it.

Next up, charger and batteries. V1 was two 5A 6S Turnigy bricks from HobbyKing. Charger is SkyCharger 6200, I picked that one out for the price ($60 AFAIR) and that 200W rating (which is actually true). My plan was to just balance charge the two bricks individually and then make a parallel harness and bulk-charge them most of the time keeping an eye on cells staying in balance.

Well. The bike comes with a carbon fork stock. I ain't riding that front motor with a carbon fork so in comes a Kona Project fork (disk brake mount). Went to a local bike shop, Bike So Good in Georgetown, they swapped the head bearing races for me and off I go installing everything.

After a whole lot of scratching my head, reading forums, and at least a couple six-packs here's what emerged:

Clean and stealthy - I like it!

Few things happened next. I rode this thing all over Seattle and noticed that jumping off/on curbs, hopping speed bumps and sleeping hobos doesn't work as well since the front end of the bike is now pretty damn heavy.

So I relocated the battery and controller down and closer to the center of the bike:




Then the "Chargery" 350W power supply I was using to power up the charger blew up (with some seriously nasty stink).

I replaced the Chargery crap with a poached from old computers at work Dell 500W power supply. That worked pretty well. Required some blinker light wired in for 5V load and lots of wire snipping from unused wire loom:

Then I got seriously pissed off about all the "bullet" connectors all around. I still haven't solved the dirt cheap stuff that comes out of the controller (Hall sensors, throttle etc.. total crap), but that's in the works. Throttle connector already gave me serous grief with "unintended acceleration", one of the pins doesn't hold in the connector housing anymore and so it pulls out and leaves the controller thinking the throttle is pinned. Fun stuff but I'd rather go without that.

So I got a bunch of Anderson connectors and proper wire strippers and crimpers. What a relief, and all for under $40!

Next up, one of the cells in the Turnigy bricks blew out for no good reason.

Luckily for me I had Tesla 14s5p packs coming from a steal of a deal from user okashira here. And a 14s charger from em3ev, which I plan to use in 90% mode most of the time.

So I got a 200Wh to 800Wh upgrade in one sweep.

Now the new battery is a bit bigger so time for a new (temporary) setup:

Next up, I absolutely do not like an 8lbs brick on the rack there, and will look to relocate it into the middle of the triangle. It wobbles around a lot if I stand up and mash it up the steeps, it threatens to pinch flat the rear tire any time I do something I'm used to pulling off without any hardware abuse like hopping over a speed bump or jumping up on a curb.

The challange really is that I want to be able to still sometimes park the bike on city streets so whatever solution I come up with needs to include easily taking the battery with me. I'm now debating is this:

option one: wire up a big connector that will combine phase wires, throttle and hall sensors so I can pack both controller and battery in one unit and take it off the bike with me, or
option two: spray paint controller flat black too, mount it under the bottom bracket or something similar so your typical bike thieving goon won't spot it, and just make the battery easy to detach from the bike.


Also I think I could do a little better than the current 36V/350W Cute Q100 201 RPM hub. I want something that can confidently take 20+A and be a rear hub and be current (~20A) limited not max RPM limited on the flats. I kinda have this with the Cute at 50+V of my 14S pack, it has good good acceleration but I'm fairly sure it's not pulling max amps on flats, just runs out of revs, especially if I'm in the mood and putting in some good wattage myself.

So overall I'm pretty pumped that I can now crush my door to door 13 mile commute with some fairly good hills in just over half hour. And I haven't verified it yet but I don't think I will need to recharge at work with this 800Wh pack, thanks okashira!

Areas of improvement on this thing are:

1. Fuse. Gotta have a fuse. I tried some http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69630&p=1055965#p1055853 but the damn GT Power Meter wouldn't live up to its spec so I have no choice but to hit auto parts store and splice a lonely fuse in.

2. Power meter. Just want to know voltage on the pack and amperage too if I'm lucky.

3. Mount the battery pack lower and closer to the center of the bike

4. Better controller (not sure how long with this elifebike deal hold up with 14s pack)

5. Rear hub motor with a faster wind than the current 201RPM Cute

5. Wire up bike lights to work off the main battery (controller has 5v out, can I just use that?)

6. Twist throttle - I get cramps in my throttle hand keeping this thing at WOT, gotta either weaken return spring or switch to a thumb throttle or actually just make an on/off button, this thing is too weak to require an actual analog throttle.

7. Crap connectors from the controller. I'm thinking about jamming some MicroUSB connectors right into the controller housing and using that for Hall, Throttle, On/Off. Got some MiniUSB stuff on order but it didn't show up yet.

8. Anti-spark connector from battery to controller. Current stuff is pretty nasty, spark-wise.

Rear hub motor with a faster wind than the current 201RPM Cute

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If you want a rear motor and want to avoid the heavy, clunky DNP Enoch free wheel, then you have a very short list to choose from;
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/492-bafang-36v500w-cst-rear-driving-hub-motor-ebike-kit.html
The Ebike CA simulator shows a scary fast 29 mph @ high 50's Voltage;
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Better controller (not sure how long with this elifebike deal hold up with 14s pack)

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At this point, many would be inclinded to use the S12S sine wave controller with all it's features like "Torque Imitation PAS, 5-speed limiter, SLED-3 display, etc.
But at your Voltage, I think all the "genaric" controllers would be at risk.
If you stay at, or below, the 270 rpm wind of the above mentioned Bafang, you could use the tiny, but powerful 6-FET 25 Amp Infineon. Or the 20 Amp version, but the CST would really want to higher rated unit.
Grin would get it to you fast, but Lynn could program a LVC if you need one.

Twist throttle - I get cramps in my throttle hand keeping this thing at WOT, gotta either weaken return spring or switch to a thumb throttle or actually just make an on/off button, this thing is too weak to require an actual analog throttle.

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At 1250 Watts, a on/off switch would be a very bad idea.
I use a left-hand half-twist in the space where the unused frt. shifter resided.

When you bought the Q100 system, you bought an assist system, but now, with your new battery and unrequited need for speed(if I am reading you correctly), you are now moving into the realm Emotobike, where a full suspension MTB would be a much better foundation to build on.

Its terribly unsafe.... but I have a thumb throttle and got tired of holding it too... so now I have my grip wedged against it so it just stays where you put it. Ive got a few vids on here showing it working riding with no hands. And I can still slide the grip over to release it for when friends test ride it.

motomech said:

If you want a rear motor and want to avoid the heavy, clunky DNP Enoch free wheel, then you have a very short list to choose from;
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/492-bafang-36v500w-cst-rear-driving-hub-motor-ebike-kit.html

Click to expand...

When you bought the Q100 system, you bought an assist system, but now, with your new battery and unrequited need for speed(if I am reading you correctly), you are now moving into the realm Emotobike, where a full suspension MTB would be a much better foundation to build on.

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Thanks for the input on the controller. I think this is sage advice.. The motor you're recommending is twice as heavy as a Cute. To me as the bike sits now it's already borderline too heavy to still feel like a good road bicycle. I'm not really going for an electric motorcycle, I pedal like a mofo on this thing but just not for as long as without assistance. Basically my commute is a sprint race now instead of an enduro Just on technical merits though I think it's kind of a waste if I don't use full amperage on flat ground. Like being geared too short and bumping against rev limiter all the time.

So the bottom line is this thing should stay within the original intent: fairly light and simple street bike. If I can find another motor at around 2kg weight that'll get me a better balance that's cool, if not I'll just keep using this one.

striider said:

Clean and stealthy - I like it!

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Thank you!

One more thing I didn't talk about is budget. The whole full suspension mountain bike suggestion pretty much would blow the budget completely since anything even half decent will net over $1K in XC type bike.

I'm currently around $1K into this thing if I only count stuff that's on the bike, not the various other combinations I tried Not so bad for a bike that is pretty light, goes pretty fast, and with a range of over 50 miles.

350 for the bike
140 (AFAIR) for the wheel, controller, throttle
~400 for the battery
50 for charger (eBay score)
That steel fork I already had so can't put a price tag on it.
~100 rack, fenders, bag

motomech said:

you want a rear motor and want to avoid the heavy, clunky DNP Enoch free wheel, then you have a very short list to choose from;
https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-kit/492-bafang-36v500w-cst-rear-driving-hub-motor-ebike-kit.html

Click to expand...

I don't think I fully groked the freewheel comment. This whole "6 speed cassette" deal has been puzzling me for a bit. So the built in freewheel on these things is not the typical 9/10sp Shimano stuff, except for the hub above? I suspected there's a catch there but I still don't understand what that is. If I have a rear hub motor I'd want to run a big front chainring and a 10 speed mountain bike cassette with an aftermarket 42T granny gear (10x1 setup).

Currently I just leave the rear derailleur at the next to fastest cog and use the 3-speed up front, that's really all I ever need for gearing selection.

Are you using any torque arms on that fork ?
I cannot see any in the pic's .

Hillhater said:

Are you using any torque arms on that fork ?
I cannot see any in the pic's .

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Negative. There are two props/washers with a bent nub that sticks down to hook into the dropout, on each fork leg. So, yes, have to put that onto my todo list, I guess somewhere near the top. Thank you!
The forks are pretty burly steel deals and I try to pedal aggressively off the start to relieve them a bit for now.

Right now, all the rear hubbies, except for the low and high speed Cutes and the BPM CST require a screw-on free wheel.
To get the 11T sm. gear, you have to go with the DNP unit. Compared to even the low-end Shimano stuff, it is crude and heavy.
The teeth are not ramped, but if it's well indexed, it will shift ok. The best one I had, I soaked in gear oil overnite.
If you want to say with a mini, there really isn't a reason to move away from your frt. mount. I ran a MXUS geared mini @ 14S Lipo and a 22A Infineon for a couple of years and it was about the limit I felt comfortable with. There were times, like entering an uphill curve w/ damp pavement, when it would break loose, but for a dirt bike guy like yourself, it's fun. The only really spooky thing was when I would bump the throttle with the wheel cocked.
The 201 Cute you now have is RPM limited, but the high speed 328 version would become current limited, which can be hard on the controller, as it wants to run high Amps most of the time.
So what I would do is split the difference with the Q100H, the 260 Mid-wind, which will easily install in your existing wheel/hub.
It's thought that the "H" has higher quality magnets, or perhaps the speed range is better suited to mini's, but it feels more powerful than the standard Q100's.
I like the ELB 9-FET controllers a lot, especially since their LVC's match my 12S lipo well. They are a little large, but I think the larger internal air space keeps them a little cooler. If yours hasn't smoked yet on 15S, it likely won't. Still, when you place the order, I would get the 9-FET 19A version and keep the 17A as a spare. There isn't that much of a difference and the H can handle the higher rated controller easily. Get the 810 Meter and PAS. Which style PAS disc works id crank style dependent, so order the other style too.
As far as your shifting set up, I have done that too. But, in the end, I like using the four or five closer ratios of my 9-speed cassette with mini motors. With the 260 H in a 700CC wheel, the place where you will really have to leg it is on the hills and the cassette will shift better under load while climbing. This will also eliminate the need for the frt. shifter, feeling up the space for a left-hand, half-twist throttle. I have tried evry type of throttle set-up and that is what I like best. Shift with the right hand and throttle with the left.(ELB does not offer that throttle, so you would have to go to BMS Battery for that. If you are interested in that throttle, another option is to buy everything from BMS B. and order the ELB controller off Ebay for $9 shipping.
Get the "new style"PAS from BMS B, to cover all the PAS bases and you will also want torque arms and a spoke wrench.
All these parts should still be under $200 total for a 28 mph Ebike(Use outrider stand. to sub. for Q100H @ Ebike CA).

What's that gas bike in the backround? A mini? I seem to reconize the Dunlop T100's. I road raced mini's in S. Calif. back in the '90's

Grok? A reference to Stranger in a Strange Land no doubt.

Wow moto brother thank you so much for sharing the knowledge. I'll follow your recipe! Wanted rear wheel drive just because front feels a bit foreign to me but looks like RWD is a PITA so Q100H it is! Will that work with Lyon's controller? I kinda dig the idea of assembling my own kit from the best parts available. Larger housing might allow me to install all the essential coupling pieces except maybe phase wires into the box itself so I might just do the 9-FET deal and be done with it.

Pedal assist, really? I haven't tried it but I just can't fathom why couple power application with pedaling. Sometimes I don't want to pedal and sometimes I want to pedal but not use the power. If that gets rid of the throttle and works well, maybe.

So you're saying this is 260RPM front Cute? http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/motors/moutrider-std.html Sweet!

Left hand throttle is kinda like GP shift on road race bikes. Or front brake on the left side for pedal bikes. I can't do it. I use standard shift and all my pushbikes get converted to right side front brake immediately. Or I crash out trying to pull a wheelie and use front brake to balance it, it hurts every time! Haven't killed any motors this way yet but getting used to GP shift for sure would produce some vented cases.

Bike in the background is a CRF450R supermoto race bike with no motor in the frame Chain came off and damaged the cases, luckily not too bad so my buddy welded up the damage and I'm getting the damn thing back in this weekend. Ported head, fancy hi-comp piston, really good suspension, slipper clutch, Brembo brakes.. I love this thing, when it works.

I think Motomech's advice is very sound. I have some commentscabout controllers. The modern sinewave controllers with LCDs and proper PAS systems make your riding experience a 100 times better than with throttle-only or single-level PAS controllers. The problem is to find one with the right voltage and current to match your motor speed. BMSBattery seĺ the 09 bottle battery with a 20A sinewave controller in it as a kit that has everything except the motor. There's two versions, 48v and 36v. The 260 rpm Q100H does about 20 mph on the road in a 26" wheel or 26 mph at 48v. You can add a coupoe more mph if you have 700c wheels. The whole kit makes a very neat installation and is virtually plug and play. The Q128H would be better if you're heavy or you need to do some serious hill climbing. The 48v version with a 48v battery has immense torque, but maxes out at about 19mph. The 36v one with a 48v battery will reach about 25mph with slightly less climbing efficiency.

There's a 48v version of the S06S that you can get from Aliexpress. Don't forget that you need a LCD to go with it.

http://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/6628143355.html?orderId=66966621456759

dakh said:

Wow moto brother thank you so much for sharing the knowledge. I'll follow your recipe! Wanted rear wheel drive just because front feels a bit foreign to me but looks like RWD is a PITA so Q100H it is! Will that work with Lyon's controller? I kinda dig the idea of assembling my own kit from the best parts available. Larger housing might allow me to install all the essential coupling pieces except maybe phase wires into the box itself so I might just do the 9-FET deal and be done with it.

Pedal assist, really? I haven't tried it but I just can't fathom why couple power application with pedaling. Sometimes I don't want to pedal and sometimes I want to pedal but not use the power. If that gets rid of the throttle and works well, maybe.

So you're saying this is 260RPM front Cute? http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/motors/moutrider-std.html Sweet!

Left hand throttle is kinda like GP shift on road race bikes. Or front brake on the left side for pedal bikes. I can't do it. I use standard shift and all my pushbikes get converted to right side front brake immediately. Or I crash out trying to pull a wheelie and use front brake to balance it, it hurts every time! Haven't killed any motors this way yet but getting used to GP shift for sure would produce some vented cases.

Bike in the background is a CRF450R supermoto race bike with no motor in the frame Chain came off and damaged the cases, luckily not too bad so my buddy welded up the damage and I'm getting the damn thing back in this weekend. Ported head, fancy hi-comp piston, really good suspension, slipper clutch, Brembo brakes.. I love this thing, when it works.

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Will that work with Lyon's controller?

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You mean Lyen?
http://www.lyen.com/
These are Infineons that he customizes.
You will like their sm. size and they are little powerhouses. they can make the motor a little noisey, but with the Cute, it's like a soft dentist's drill.
his service takes a while. I would stay under 22 Amps, and even that might be a bit much. FET's are high quality and rated to 72 V, so no worries there.

So you're saying this is 260RPM front Cute? http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/motors/moutrider-std.html

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No, I was saying that the Outrider can be substituted in the motor simulator for the Cute H. It is slightly larger than the Q100's and will not swap into your wheel/hub. You would need to order the Q100H from BMS Battery, Elifebike or Greenbikekit.

Larger housing might allow me to install all the essential coupling pieces except maybe phase wires into the box itself so I might just do the 9-FET deal and be done with it.

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No, there is not room for that. You can just solder all the wires directly.

And DO NOT forget a torque arm! easy/cheap insurance for a Q100H on 56V and plus 20 Amps! One is enough.

Thanks again for all the great advice! I'm the man with a plan now

Was shooting breeze with my riding buddies and discussing if I should fly or ride to San Francisco (done that a few times so not too stoked about riding again). Some back of the napkin math comes out that I could, with the batteries I have on hand (2 of 14s5p and enough to make another 14s3p pack), do 200 mile days easy with mild pedaling. Not this time but I might just do that at some point! Stay at hotel/B&B each night to charge up, 10-12 hours of riding, doesn't sound bad at all to me!

Hey, a start's a start.. good going on your first build. Eventually you will learn what you like best & build better and badder machines if you continue to tinker

Very clean build but unless i am not seeing it correctly it looks like the wire from the hub motor is exiting up with no drip loop? should flip motor so wires exit facing down to form drip loop. experts chime in if i am wrong please love the look of the bike,beautiful job.

Thanks for the compliments guys. I see the problem with wiring and the hub axle, will have to flip it. I was planning to get it out and seal the bugger up anyway so that I can put some oil into it. It's summer here so no big deal for now but come winter I can see it being an issue. Thanks!

motomech said:

Right now, all the rear hubbies, except for the low and high speed Cutes and the BPM CST require a screw-on free wheel.
To get the 11T sm. gear, you have to go with the DNP unit. Compared to even the low-end Shimano stuff, it is crude and heavy.

Click to expand...

One more question: how difficult will it be to create a bastardized CST motor with a 260RPM stator from the front wheel and the rest being the hardware that allows for a 9-speed cassette?

After riding this rig a bit more I'm really jonesing for something a bit lighter and with better balance. I have some loose Tesla cells coming as well so I have a design in mind for how to create a really stealthy battery pack mount that is well centered, rear hub I think will improve bike handling a lot vs. the front one. If it's possible I'd do it if maybe later and on a different frame.

The internals swap between the standard Cutes and the H, but not the CST. Different width stators I believe.
Besides, moving a Cute from frt. to back doesn't change much.

After riding this rig a bit more I'm really jonesing for something a bit lighter and with better balance.

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Like when you had a sm. lipo pack at the bottom of the frame?
Can you go back to it and only use the monster battery only when you need the range?