Garage Sale Heinzmann, no controller

I'm new to ebikes and need some help with a Heinzmann motor I picked up at a garage sale. The motor came with a rim and a Currie throttle, no controller or battery. I need to figure out what model Heinzmann I have so I can find a controller and battery for it. A wiring diagram and exploded view diagram of the motor would be helpful. It has two 18 gauge wires (red and blue) and two much finer wires (both black) coming out of the motor. Plate number: 870-00-114-05, serial number: F823346. Can anyone ID this motor so I know what sort of controller and battery to get for it?

Is this motor circuit hackable to the extent that I can get a lower cost afternarket controller and fit a generic battery pack to it?

Here's the rest of the plate specs. Can someone tell me what they mean? I got the watts and amps part but the rest is hard to figure.

h: 154/min
P: 400W
U: 24V

Betreisbsart S 2
18 min
RL 26/19
Mmax: 35Nm
Imax: 30A
In: 22A

you can buy a 36V 500W brushed motor controller from ecrazyman on ebay, and get the throttle from him too. for cheap. he is keywin here on the sphere. i think.

dnmun said:

you can buy a 36V 500W brushed motor controller from ecrazyman on ebay, and get the throttle from him too. for cheap. he is keywin here on the sphere. i think.

Click to expand...

Good tip. I'll check it out. But what about the overheating cutout switch? There are two wires for this coming out of the motor. Does this controller have a function to integrate the cutout switch?

never heard of a cutout switch on them. mine does not have one.

dnmun said:

you can buy a 36V 500W brushed motor controller from ecrazyman on ebay, and get the throttle from him too. for cheap. he is keywin here on the sphere. i think.

Click to expand...

Looks like his only unit with an over 400 watt capacity is a 48v 600watt unit. Will that work as long as the volts and watts are above the 24v, 400w specs on my motor?

the heinzman will not last long at 48V. it will last longer at 36V if you keep the power down. so a 36V 400W controller may be what you need then.

can you post up a picture of the cutout switch you talked about?

Well what you suggest is likely. I had a Heinzmann 500 watt "classic" motor and it had a thermister and controller shut-off, so when the motor got hot, it stopped. Your motor plate information says its a 400 watt, 24V, 22amp motor. You could power that at 36V or stick with 24V. The key information you need is to get 20 amp controller, not a 30 amp one. 30 amps would likely lead to frequent over-heating. I suggest getting an available controller for a brushed motor at 20 amps. And forget the thermister/shut-off function. Heinzmann made their motors all metal, no plastic gears, so over-heating should be less of a problem. And for me, the shut-off was more nuisance than worrisome.

For instance, see Currie 24V 400W Electric Scooter Speed Controller, from http://www.electricscooterparts.com/speedcontrollers24volt.html
Designed for 24 Volt motors up to 400 Watts. Maximum current 30 Amps. Under Voltage protection 20.5 Volts. Current limiting feature prevents controller and motor damage due to over-current conditions. Under voltage protection feature prevents over-discharge and extends battery life. Fits eZip, IZIP, Schwinn, GT, and Mongoose electric scooters up to 400 Watts that have 5 connectors and a 5 wire throttle. Model XK-022A, Item # SPD-SD400

walterino said:

dnmun said:

you can buy a 36V 500W brushed motor controller from ecrazyman on ebay, and get the throttle from him too. for cheap. he is keywin here on the sphere. i think.

Click to expand...

Looks like his only unit with an over 400 watt capacity is a 48v 600watt unit. Will that work as long as the volts and watts are above the 24v, 400w specs on my motor?

Click to expand...

Never mind. I just noticed that they are brushless controllers. Doesn't look like he's offering brushed motor controllers at this time.

arkmundi said:

For instance, see Currie 24V 400W Electric Scooter Speed Controller, from http://www.electricscooterparts.com/speedcontrollers24volt.html
Designed for 24 Volt motors up to 400 Watts. Maximum current 30 Amps. Under Voltage protection 20.5 Volts. Current limiting feature prevents controller and motor damage due to over-current conditions. Under voltage protection feature prevents over-discharge and extends battery life. Fits eZip, IZIP, Schwinn, GT, and Mongoose electric scooters up to 400 Watts that have 5 connectors and a 5 wire throttle. Model XK-022A, Item # SPD-SD400

Click to expand...

Looks good. Would rather not have the wait from a Far East source. Thanks so much for your help.

walterino said:

walterino said:

dnmun said:

you can buy a 36V 500W brushed motor controller from ecrazyman on ebay, and get the throttle from him too. for cheap. he is keywin here on the sphere. i think.

Click to expand...

Looks like his only unit with an over 400 watt capacity is a 48v 600watt unit. Will that work as long as the volts and watts are above the 24v, 400w specs on my motor?

Click to expand...

Never mind. I just noticed that they are brushless controllers. Doesn't look like he's offering brushed motor controllers at this time.

Click to expand...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2055119.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X36V+brushed+motor+controller.TRS0&_nkw=36V+brushed+motor+controller&_sacat=0

The cutout switch wires are present on the 24v model. Ideally run it on 24v, or if you go 36, keep the amps low, like 15 amps max.

Wire the cutout switch to the on off switch circuit of the controller, and when the motor gets hot, it will shut it down. If the controller does not have that, it could also be run to the 5v+ wire of the throttle. So the throttle would die if the motor gets hot, and opens the thermal switch in the motor.

So for the throttle cut off, the 5v+ wire would leave the controller, go in either wire to the motor, out the other small wire to the motor, then to the throttle. When cool, the motors internal switch will turn on the current.

Leave the switch disconnected, the motor will run fine, but 36v will likely overheat it, so use the switch.

Very helpful, thanks a bunch. I've found a 24v controller and matching throttle but would like to keep the cutout switch in the circuit.

dogman dan said:

The cutout switch wires are present on the 24v model. Ideally run it on 24v, or if you go 36, keep the amps low, like 15 amps max.

Wire the cutout switch to the on off switch circuit of the controller, and when the motor gets hot, it will shut it down. If the controller does not have that, it could also be run to the 5v+ wire of the throttle. So the throttle would die if the motor gets hot, and opens the thermal switch in the motor.

So for the throttle cut off, the 5v+ wire would leave the controller, go in either wire to the motor, out the other small wire to the motor, then to the throttle. When cool, the motors internal switch will turn on the current.

Leave the switch disconnected, the motor will run fine, but 36v will likely overheat it, so use the switch.

Click to expand...

Like the others said, should run well at 36V, avoid 48V or brushes will die quickly...follow these links to see pics of the insudes to give you a point of reference when asking further questions.

Heinzmann
spoke pitch circle diameter:_______
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4190
http://www.ebike.heinzmann.com/en/
brushed, no disc brake flange, two stages of geared reduction with the high-RPM half using helical gears. The two tiny wires exiting the motor are a temp sensor that trips at 145F / 63C, rare axial flux configuration.

I had one of these motors for a while.

http://syonyk.blogspot.com/2015/05/my-first-ebike-lessons-learned.html

You can find some of my experiences with it there. I don't recommend running it on 36v, and 48v is right out.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4190 has a teardown of something very similar or identical to what you have.

walterino said:

I need to figure out what model Heinzmann I have so I can find a controller and battery for it. A wiring diagram and exploded view diagram of the motor would be helpful.

Click to expand...

It's a brushed motor, so pretty much any brushed motor controller will work. My bike, when I got it, had the thin sense wires hooked into the "power on" switch of my throttle, and it would cut out if it got too hot. I believe it's a thermistor and the stock setup used it to pull back on power. There are a few threads discussing this on ES.

It has two 18 gauge wires (red and blue) and two much finer wires (both black) coming out of the motor.

Click to expand...

Attach 12v or 24v to the 18 gauge wires. I'm pretty sure red is positive and blue is negative/ground. If the motor spins but the wheel wheel does not spin, reverse the polarity and try again - there's a free running clutch in there, so it won't run backwards.

Is this motor circuit hackable to the extent that I can get a lower cost afternarket controller and fit a generic battery pack to it?

Click to expand...

It's a brushed motor, so the control system is "apply voltage, motor spins. Apply more voltage, motor spins faster." It's dead simple, and pretty much any brushed controller you get will work fine with it. I was running an 800W 36v controller, but you really, really want to feed this thing 24v.

I ran mine on 38v, and it worked great, but it got hot in the summer, and eventually failed on me due to something overheating and failing. I think I cooked the brush springs or something. I'd bypassed the thermal cutoff, which wasn't a good idea in retrospect.

This is really a 24v motor if you want it to last.

The Heinzmann is known to be a torquey little hub, and if it is purchased cheaply enough, it is not horrible to have. I agree with Syonyk that you should not bypass/eliminate the heat protection. Even if the new operating envelope that you use makes it cut out frequently, at least you can sell it as long as it still works.

It was designed for the European market, so it typically provides 16-MPH at 24V (25-kph). If someone had a fairly flat commute, I would not hesitate to use 36V, but I would be certain to restrict the amps. By going to 36V, the motor should spin approximately 40% faster, but again, heat is the enemy.

Geared hubs shed heat poorly, and brushed motors are more sensitive to heat than brushLESS. Most of the heat of running a motor is due to the amps. The Heinzmann makes up for its small size by having a dual reduction (like the Cute Q-series). If the European customers are limited on how many watts they can put into the hub, then Heinzmann made the motor spin much faster with a higher Kv, and then reduced it back down to 16-MPH to get the most out of it.

Another option is to lace this up to a 20-inch wheel, and keep it at 24V, it would be a wonderful kit for a young adult. If 16-MPH in 26-inch wheel, then it should be about 12-MPH (19-kph) in a 20-inch, but...the hill-climbing should also be improved 25%.

At 48V these brushes will experience some arc-ing, since a higher voltage can travel through the air farther. Brushed motors can be designed to work using 48V (the Agni has been run well at 96V), but the Heinzmann brushes are only adequate up to 36V. When un-timely arc-ing begins actuating the next motor phase before its proper time, then for a brief portion of the rotation of the rotor, the phases are working against each other, which equals more heat (not to mention that for that split second, it is technically a dead short).

BTW there is a 36v version of this motor, that did not have the thermal switch. But the 24v one would heat up fast when run on 36v, so definitely keep that switch.

No fun though, just when you are having fun on a dirt trail, to have that switch shut you down. Long wait for it to cool enough to run again.

REALLY torquey on 36v! Interesting pancake type motor, like an Agni.

The really nice thing about the motor is it has the best torque arm design bar none!

The really bad thing, is on 36v it's as loud as a dental drill in your head.