An alternative to thumb or twist throttles

[Russell]

Update:

My motor reached full power before the throttle was at the end of its travel, which is ok but I wanted to use the full sweep of the throttle to get finer control over the speed after I swapped out a Bafang motor for a more powerful 9C model. To do this I changed the 100 ohm resistor to 220 ohm and the 470 ohm to 1K-ohm. This change resulted in response a bit sooner when the throttle was first pulled and more progressive action throughout the arc of the lever. One problem however was that my thick grips prevented the throttle lever from reaching full travel which wasn't a problem before but now the motor only got to 90% of its full speed. I swapped the thick grips for thinner ones which allowed for full travel of the throttle lever...but just barely.

The throttle supply on my latest controller is 4.95V instead of 4.75V with the throttle voltage spec'd on the rating plate at 1.1-4.2V. The latest resistor combination I use results in a range of (0.220K/1.220K x 4.95V) 0.9V to (3.5K/4.5K x 4.95V) 3.85V. The 3.85V is a bit low but as I said the motor does reach full speed. I rode the bike with this new configuration and found it was easier to control the speed of the Nine Continent motor, especially at small throttle openings, which is what I wanted. The resistor values I specify are by no means cut in stone, you can of course customize them to suit your needs.



-R

[callagga]

Russell,

How much better do you think this throttle is than a 1/2 twist mounted on the left hand side (i.e. allows me to do the up/down gears on the right side whilst adjusting throttle on the left, albeit the throttle has to twist away from me rather than towards me)?

Don't you accidentally hit the throttle when slamming on the back brake hard?

Cheers

[Russell]

Russell,

How much better do you think this throttle is than a 1/2 twist mounted on the left hand side (i.e. allows me to do the up/down gears on the right side whilst adjusting throttle on the left, albeit the throttle has to twist away from me rather than towards me)?

Don't you accidentally hit the throttle when slamming on the back brake hard?

Cheers

I can't say how a left side half twist compares since I've never used one. On a bicycle I'll take pulling a trigger over twisting my wrist any day of the week.

My left brake lever is connected to my front wheel which works out well since I can never hit the throttle to the front wheel motor at the same time I apply the front brake. The way I have the throttle and brake lever arranged I have never hit the throttle while braking, by accident or otherwise. When taking off from a full stop I have reached for the brake a few times instead of the throttle, which of course gets me nowhere.

I'm quite surprised someone hasn't supplied a kit with a trigger throttle like this one; the solid feel, the spring action, and the ability to precisely control the power puts it far ahead of the cheap plastic throttles supplied with most motor kits. I like the throttle so much I ordered another one (now at a higher price) for a work in progress even though I already have a full twist and two thumb throttles lying around. With the recent resistor change I made I now have better low speed control over the 9C motor and hence better efficiency. I imagine the pot won't last nearly as long as hall-effect devices but there's no reason they couldn't make something like this with the solid state devices.

-R

[Patriot]

This is the same throttle I am considering as well. I already have a 1kohm resistor inline with the signal lead going to the controller, so hopefully I wouldn't have to do very much.

I found the same throttle at http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/prod ... z31686.htm

They say theirs is already 0-5k, so I would assume no manipulation is needed.

$25 seems like a good investment to stop the wrist pain from using a thumbie at a weird angle. The thumbie is turning out NOT to be as egronomic as I had hoped.

[Russell]

This is the same throttle I am considering as well. I already have a 1kohm resistor inline with the signal lead going to the controller, so hopefully I wouldn't have to do very much.

I found the same throttle at http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/prod ... z31686.htm

They say theirs is already 0-5k, so I would assume no manipulation is needed.

$25 seems like a good investment to stop the wrist pain from using a thumbie at a weird angle. The thumbie is turning out NOT to be as egronomic as I had hoped.

Yeah they said mine was a 0-5K also but the pot actually measures 10K-ohms between the red and black leads which is why I had to modify it as I did.


-R

[Patriot]

Ah. Got it. I'll make sure I check mine if I decide to get one.

[ekline309]

in your diagram you show that the red wire from the throttle is not used, but in a corresponding goldenmotor thread you say all three wires are connected.

[Russell]

in your diagram you show that the red wire from the throttle is not used, but in a corresponding goldenmotor thread you say all three wires are connected.

The RED wire from the throttle is NOT used however I said there were still THREE connections from the modified throttle to the controller throttle input connector. What I did was cut the throttle cable, solder in the resistors and tape it all up (see photo). The connector from the throttle uses three pins; one is from the 1K resistor (originally 470 ohm), which I designate the "Red" pin, one is from the green wire, which is designated "GR/Blu", and one is from the 220 ohm resistor (originally 100 ohm) which I designate the "Black" pin.

bike 006.jpg (84.65 KiB) Viewed 1078 times

Hope that clears things up.

-R

[callagga]

Hi Russell,

So is this correct to say (plus some questions)

* All throttles work on the concept of providing a variable voltages back to the controller, therefore all one needs to do is mimic this behaviour when working out resister values?

* I have a Crystalyte throttle for an eZee kit (http://ebikes.ca/store/store_ezee.php) so irrespective of how the current throttle works your approach should be ok for the eZee kit?

* If you put no resistors in at all and the voltage sent back is say 0V - Supply Voltage, could this damage the controller do you think? In other words how sensitive do you think controllers would be to getting things wrong here (e.g. resister values)? (I would get there shouldn't be an issue)

* You don't talk about current (A) in your thread - are there any current limits that a controller would be sensitive to? Like you could get the same voltages buy buying a potentiometer & resisters that were 1/10 of the value, or 10x the values no? You would still get the same ratios however the currently flowing would change. Did you measure the current flow on your original bike, or just assume that if scooter throttles come in this 3.3kOhm range this is normal and work from here?


thanks again

[callagga]

PS. Justin at ebikes.ca already gave me some info re the eZee kit:

Anything you do to generate a 1V - 4V intput signal on the throttle line will work fine. But be aware that with the eZee controllers, a voltage greater than about 4.5V is considered a fault condition (as happens if the gnd pin of the throttle is disconnected) and will result in no output power and a flash error code on the controller.

Might be useful for others too I thought...

[bikeelectric]

I am considering trying this lever type - I am starting to think the raw spot on my thumb is from my thumb throttle !

I found the same thing for less than half the price here
Note : I was going to order from here but didn't see a https secure link for credit card info so I am holding off on it.

http://ebladez.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=70171&Category_Code=EPXTRStreetIICompIIRP

[Russell]

Hi Russell,

So is this correct to say (plus some questions)

* All throttles work on the concept of providing a variable voltages back to the controller, therefore all one needs to do is mimic this behaviour when working out resister values?

* I have a Crystalyte throttle for an eZee kit (http://ebikes.ca/store/store_ezee.php) so irrespective of how the current throttle works your approach should be ok for the eZee kit?

* If you put no resistors in at all and the voltage sent back is say 0V - Supply Voltage, could this damage the controller do you think? In other words how sensitive do you think controllers would be to getting things wrong here (e.g. resister values)? (I would get there shouldn't be an issue)

* You don't talk about current (A) in your thread - are there any current limits that a controller would be sensitive to? Like you could get the same voltages buy buying a potentiometer & resisters that were 1/10 of the value, or 10x the values no? You would still get the same ratios however the currently flowing would change. Did you measure the current flow on your original bike, or just assume that if scooter throttles come in this 3.3kOhm range this is normal and work from here?

thanks again

Yes both hall-effect and potentiometer throttles simply send a variable voltage to the controller. With hall-effect the range is generally 1-4V and a plain old 0-5K pot would be 0-5V. Sending 0V to the controller will not harm it and I doubt sending 5v back will either. Since a Hall Effect controller is expecting 1-4V there will be dead spots on either end of potentiometer rotation if a simple 0-5K pot is used.

When I first contemplated using a pot instead of the hall-effect throttle I experimented with a 0-5K linear pot I purchased from RadioShack. One thing I did do was measure the currents with it and the Hall Effect throttle. I don't remember the values but in both cases the currents were miniscule.

The Bladez "5K" throttle would have worked out of the box had it actually been a 5K pot set to its default wiper range of about 900 ohms to 4.2K however it's a 10K pot with about a 3.3K wiper range. Because of this I could not get the desired voltage range form the throttle and had to make it a 2-wire variable resistor with outboard resistors setting up the high and low limits. My initial resistor selection was done to match as closely as possible the voltages the original hall-effect throttle sent back to the controller. The Bladez throttle worked fine like that but the motor reached full speed well before the throttle reached the end of travel. This seemed a bit of a waste to me so I changed the values to provide a narrower voltage range over a wider throttle angle which increased the resolution.


The problem you may encounter when using different brushless controllers and different throttles is that the connectors can be 3-pin or 4-pin and each can be wired differently. The 3 pin is easy since there's red (V+), black (gnd) and the throttle signal, which from what I've seen can be white, green or blue. The 4th pin on some throttles is at the battery voltage to power LED indicators.


-R

[Russell]

I am considering trying this lever type - I am starting to think the raw spot on my thumb is from my thumb throttle !

I found the same thing for less than half the price here
Note : I was going to order from here but didn't see a https secure link for credit card info so I am holding off on it.

http://ebladez.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=70171&Category_Code=EPXTRStreetIICompIIRP

Yeah I found them a while back too but didn't do the transaction because the site is not secure. I ended up buying the second throttle from the same place as the first one but had to pay $11 more for it. Still often times what makes or breaks an otherwise good product is the human interface and I won't ride a long distance with a cheap twist or thumb throttle.

-R

[callagga]

Russell - BTW does the 3 pin connector at the end fit out-of-the-box the ebike controllers? i.e. are they all standard? In other words would I have to order a connector separately?

BTW - One place that does ship to my location is http://www.partsforscooters.com/111-46. These guys should be as good as any no?

Tks

[Russell]

Russell - BTW does the 3 pin connector at the end fit out-of-the-box the ebike controllers? i.e. are they all standard? In other words would I have to order a connector separately?

BTW - One place that does ship to my location is http://www.partsforscooters.com/111-46. These guys should be as good as any no?

Tks

No the connector will not fit the standard Chinese controller 3-pin throttle connector. You can buy the connectors here;

http://tncscooters.com/partsdb.php?type=ES

http://stores.ebay.com/redneckscooters

Crystalyte controllers use different connectors and you can get a bag of them from ebikes.ca if you can't find them anywhere else (I haven't looked) though it would probably be cheaper to convert to the "standard" 3-pin connectors.

I take back what I said a few posts ago, I ordered my latest throttle from here a couple days ago;

http://www.scootercatalog.com/bladez-throttle.html

instead of here;

http://www.extremescooters.biz/throttleleverbladezpart70171.aspx



-R

[callagga]

just to confirm then:

* The 3-pin modular connector at http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101162 is what would be compatible with the level throttle - so it I got this connector I could change my controller throttle connector and then the level throttle would plug right into it ok.

3-pin_modular.jpg (6.09 KiB) Viewed 850 times

* Note that the eZee kit controller is not the crystalyte one. The connector on the eZee controller is show here. Is this different to the level thottle's 3-pin modular connector then? (or is it in fact the same)

throttle_ezee.jpg (6.04 KiB) Viewed 849 times

tks

[Russell]

I installed the standard 3-pin connector you show in your first picture on the throttle. I threw away the connector that came with the throttle so I have no way of knowing if it's compatible with any other controllers.

-R

[Instant Karma]

If I read the previous posts correctly I assume a 5K throttle will work with Crystalyte Brushless controller without modifications? I recently broke a half twist throttle and the cheap plastic they're made of doesn't inspire confidence plus when I use the RH brake it interferes with the throttle so am thinking of switching to a 5K thumb throttle that i happen to have lying around, if the thumb throttle doesn't work out I'll probably try the trigger throttle idea next.

[sprocket]

the TRIGGER throttle.

To me a full twist throttle is at home on a motorcycle where the rider is stationary and usually in an upright or even laid back position but they don't seem to be the best solution on an ebike which someone is actually pedaling and may even be getting out of the saddle from time to time. The full twist throttle that came with my kit is hard plastic and I know it would be a real pain holding it in position for any length of time. I ordered a left hand thumb throttle but then I noticed many active vehicles where the rider may be getting jostled such as ATV's and jet skis often have trigger throttles. Of course those are cable actuated but I did find a trigger throttle used on an electric scooter to try.

.....

-R

Russell,

Do you think one could modify that throttle to fit 15/16" diameter bars rather than 7/8"? One nice thing I see is that the throttle mechanism is separated from the mounting hardware (unlike thumb or twist, where it actually surrounds the mounting hardware. As you pointed out, curved handlebars are rare, and one problem we have is an incompatible diameter for standard throttles.

-S

[Russell]

Russell,

Do you think one could modify that throttle to fit 15/16" diameter bars rather than 7/8"? One nice thing I see is that the throttle mechanism is separated from the mounting hardware (unlike thumb or twist, where it actually surrounds the mounting hardware. As you pointed out, curved handlebars are rare, and one problem we have is an incompatible diameter for standard throttles.

-S

It looks like it would be possible. The throttle is all plastic with an integrated clamp made for standard 22mm mountain bars with very little give to it so I doubt it could expand to fit over larger diameter bars. As it is fairly thick, about 6mm, if you had a good way to ream it out evenly there should be enough material left over to still clamp properly. With the right power tools it would be a quick job, with hand files it would be a mess. The clamp is also quite wide at 30mm so it won't be going over any tight bends even if you open it up.

Kona 001.jpg (77.32 KiB) Viewed 780 times

Another albeit expensive option is to buy a HubBub adapter which fits in the end of road bars and permits the use of mountain shifters. http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/nuvinci.html

Something else that may work is this;

http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_164164_-1_201355_10000_201357

-R

[Russell]

I take back what I said a few posts ago, I ordered my latest throttle from here a couple days ago;

http://www.scootercatalog.com/bladez-throttle.html

instead of here;

http://www.extremescooters.biz/throttleleverbladezpart70171.aspx


-R

I received the throttle I ordered a few days ago from scootercatalog.com and was quite displeased at what I found. First of all the throttle was falling apart; one of the nuts which holds the small cover in place was lying in the plastic bag and the other was loose, the large bolt holding the top cover was loose and the hold-down bracket bolt was missing entirely! I put the throttle back together but did not have the right sized bolt for the hold-down bracket but I found had another bolt and nut that worked. The throttle lever itself worked poorly with a lot of resistance. I took the small cover off exposing the small potentiometer and found it loose in its mounting bracket. After working on the problem for a while I then found that the potentiometer mounting bracket was installed backwards! Once I flipped the bracket around the throttle action smoothed out.

...now to mod it and mount it to my second ebike.

-R

[Joepostal]

The plastic bits on this throttle are huge, the mounting could potentially be cut in half to 15mm, 7 on each side and it still would work fine. The resistance is high and the full sweep causes it to have to be mounted right next to the grip.

i.e. You can't mount it on the other side of a brake lever since it would hit the mount for the brake and you would not hit full throttle. otoh if you have an ohm meter and figure out how far it can move depending on how you mount it you could adjust the full throttle position...

I am still trying to imagine how/if I will ever use it.

[Russell]

Here it is mounted on my Kona Smoke which I just finished converting;

Kona 004.jpg (78.62 KiB) Viewed 759 times

As on my first conversion I eliminated the stock left shifter for the front derailleur. On the Raleigh I use a downtube shifter to control the front derailleur and while I have not had cause to shift down to the small ring I still like having the option if power runs out. On the Kona I added a little thumb shifter I picked up at Nashbar.com for a buck to control the front derailleur. Eventually however I might eliminate it altogether and convert from a 2x8 setup to a 1x9.

I have the throttle farther from the brake lever on this bike so I could rotate it up a bit more without hitting the body of the brake, on the Raleigh (see below) it's much closer.

Bafang 012.jpg (85.36 KiB) Viewed 755 times

In both cases I modified the throttle with external resistors as described on page 1 of the thread.

-R

[sprocket]

The plastic bits on this throttle are huge, the mounting could potentially be cut in half to 15mm, 7 on each side and it still would work fine. The resistance is high and the full sweep causes it to have to be mounted right next to the grip.

i.e. You can't mount it on the other side of a brake lever since it would hit the mount for the brake and you would not hit full throttle. ...

... ver use it.

Just purchased the same throttle. Because of the curved handlebars on my bike, I'm going to cut the mount and find some way to reattach it. Will post pics when I'm done. Russell, have you found this throttle to be comfortable for extended rides (> 1 hour) so that it doesn't cause fatigue?

-S

[callagga]

bought one to try out

Having some fun at the moment through trying to fit (a) handbrake, (b) gear lever & (c) throttle in a manner in which each is close enough...seems a little bit of a challenge.