3D MCAD software

RWP

RWP

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What software are you using?
Open source would be best but really interested in what you think is a relatively easy package to learn with the features we need to design mechanical drive components and systems.

Needs to be 3D so one can rotate and look inside of the model to check clearances and interferences.
Cutting sections would be nice.
Plan views would be nice.
Ability to create files to send to CNC a plus.

I have played with SketchUp a bit and have used Revit (but Revit is not designed for mechanical systems).
I think there is better software out there for our mechanical systems.

Your wisdom and experience is greatly appreciated!
Roy
 
RWP said:
What software are you using?
Open source would be best but really interested in what you think is a relatively easy package to learn with the features we need to design mechanical drive components and systems.
Click to expand...
Not much in open-source... BRL-CAD is anything but easy, Blender (3D modelling) has a CAD plugin, but it is only available in Italian. :(

If you can spend a few hundred bucks, Alibre Design is a nice program and easy to learn.
The trial version allows full operability on a few components (but won't output drawings).
 
I've used Alibre for 5 years. It's fine for this kind of work - parametrics is great. No surfacing but there is a plugin for Rhino. HyperShot is the easiest render program to use with it.

The trial version converts to a 5 Part Assembly limited version after the 30 day trial expires. You are allowed to use the free limited version for commercial work but unfortunately, as Tyler said, Drawing ability was removed from it, recently.

The other one I'd consider is T-Flex, it's more expensive but it has an awesome Dynamics module.
 
TylerDurden said:
...
Blender (3D modelling) has a CAD plugin, but it is only available in Italian. :(
...
Click to expand...

I've not used it yet, but Ubuntu delivers Blender in English. Perhaps it's not the version you want, Tyler.
 
paultrafalgar said:
I've not used it yet, but Ubuntu delivers Blender in English. Perhaps it's not the version you want, Tyler.
Click to expand...
My bad English at work... the 'ProCAD' plugin is in Italian.

I use Blender for lots of personal projects, it exports many formats. It is quite precise, but not a mech CAD by any stretch. (A CAD operator would prolly rip their hair out. )PrecisionModellingbook.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/r.burke2/precision_modelling1.html

For technical pre-viz and illustration, Blender has its uses.
 
There's also Ironcad Inovate: http://www.ironcad.com/product/inovate.html

and
Varicad: http://www.varicad.com/en/home/
ViaCad: http://www.punchcad.com/products/viacad2d3d.htm
 
Thanks for the tidy-up and links, Miles!

ViaCad2D3D looks stellar for the price... a bit like Sketchup Pro extended further into MCAD territory.
 
There's also GMAX (based on 3d Studio) with the "CNC Toolkit" plugin that can generate your toolpaths for CNC.

http://freeartsoftware.com/survey3d2d-downloads/download-info.php?sid=8
http://www.turbosquid.com/gmax

http://www.cnc-toolkit.com/cnc_toolkit.html
 
I agree with TylerDurden.

Blender certainly has its uses and is what I use. More for conceptual than actual production but after reading the .pdf linked to by Tyler above I think it could be useful.


  • Import Export many file types including those used by cnc shops.
    Cross Platform, windows, mac, unix, linux. Good for file sharing.
    Scriptable with Python language.
    Free and Open Source!
    Constantly upgraded by an active helpful community!
    OpenGL viewport for looking at components and a full renderer.

I also agree that while its not totally geared for cad work its far better than brl-cad or qcad. The other OSS options I've tried. I may be a bit biased as I was one of the guys who packaged up blender for osx on a few versions. And answered thousands of questions on irc, wrote some of the manual, and a few tutorials. Maybe a list of features that could be useful to the bike customization crew can be reviewed after a trail with the program. This could be helpful because its possible to customize blender thanks to open source and scripting. Or some sort of part repository for things like sprockets, head tubes, etc. (EDIT) I see there is a 3d repository already. I'll try and add some models.

Its not the easiest program to leap right into though :)
Again after reading the above mentioned .pdf I think its a great start. Or better! Watch the Video of the PDF.

Here are two examples I made with blender:
water_cool.jpg

siamese_hub.jpg


jsplifer
 
Here are a few useful Blender Scripts if anyone decides to take the Blender route. These are not needed to make great looking or accurate models, but they can come in handy. There are a lot of videos and written tutorials on the net, just takes some searching. Blender's main site also has a good deal of resources and links.

Mechanical Gears.
http://www.swineworld.org/blender/gears/

Caliper for measurements.
http://www.alienhelpdesk.com/python_scripts/caliper

Geom Tool, for doing point and edge projecting to other objects.
http://www.hybird.org/~guiea_7/

QuantitiesBill, for finding volume of objects.
http://yorik.orgfree.com/scripts.html

ProCAD, script to turn blender into CAD tools. Choose ProCAD 2.5 and replace the GUI with English version found on same page. This is a fairly complicated script to get the hang of, but some may need it.
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:Py/Scripts/Manual/CAD/ProCAD
Incomplete English manual here.
http://wiki.blender.org/uploads/e/e9/Manual-Script-CAD-PROCAD22manual_en.zip


Some other links of use:
http://blender-archi.tuxfamily.org/Main_Page
http://yorik.orgfree.com/tutorials/precisionmodelling-blender.html
http://www.wikkidwidgets.com/CNCMachiningwithBlender - 2.5D.doc

And a video: http://www.vimeo.com/4130975

Cheers,
jsplifer
 
Personally I use Inventor by Autodesk. It's a full blown (mid-range) 3D parametric modeler developed specifically for MCAD applications. It plays very well with AutoCAD and will export/import a great variety of other file formats. It also has built in "design accelerator" used for functional design of gear trains, synchronous belts etc. You plug in what you want the design to do and the software spits out files/designs that work. FYI Unfortunately though HTD and GT2 are not in the design database as those are proprietary formats and not yet licensed to Autodesk. But you can manually add those when needed. One VERY nice feature is the "frame generator" which makes any type of tube frame design REALLY easy to model. I just used it extensively on a project and it was brilliant! If you want to step it up a bit there is an option for a FEA (Finite Element Analysis) package that will allow you to check the stress and deflections etc. Additionally there is a dynamic analysis package that you can use analyze you design's mechanical dynamic behaviors. Along with this there is a full drawing package that will allow you to make production ready prints for manufacturing.

Also, there is a free version (or at least there was. I haven't checked in a while) that you can download from the Autodesk website that will allow full part design functionality and I think drawings too. No assembly design though. It's called Inventor LT (Limited Technology).

As far as ease of use I've had plenty of students that I trained in my classes tell me that Inventor was very easy to learn. I'll take their word for it. My perspective is biased as I've been using Inventor for 9+ years. Check on YouTube and you'll find a pretty good set of tutorials on how to use Inventor's basic functions. There is also a set of tutorials supplied with the software in the help section. The more advanced stuff, however, takes a fair bit of practice.

These applications also play well with Alias surface models (full blown industrial design software) and will visualize VERY well with Showcase (visualization software) to give your design that special "look."

BUT if you are a student you may be able to get the whole shebang for free (or near free) because Autodesk just about gives the stuff away to students. Check with your college/school and see if they participate in the ACES program. If so you are on your way. I trained a whole gaggle of high school kids last winter who were preparing for the FIRST robotics competition. Those guys were able to download just about everything for FREE they told me.

If you are not a student and happen to have a seat of AutoCAD lying around you will probably be able to upgrade it Inventor for pennies on the dollar. Autodesk seems to have a special upgrade promotion about every other quarter so you may be able to strike it rich if your timing is good.

Additionally, I would encourage you (anyone) who is looking into design software to also check with your software reseller and see if there is a local user group in your area. If you are not familiar with what this is, it's a group of users who meet and go over stuff with their software. It's kind of like ES but incarnate. These are generally organized by the VAR (Value Added Reseller) so who ever you get you software from can hook you up with the UG (user group) meetings.

I hope that helps.

Cheers. :)
 
I'm still shopping.

I prefer free, since I don't do much paying work destined for a shop.

Blender is great, but might need work on:
  • output to 2D drawings
    cascading updates to parameters
    Assembly/alignment tools

I wouldn't mind flipping a couple hundred bux for a handy app like viaCAD pro... even 2D3D ($99)would probably meet my needs. Components could be exported to Blender for surfacing and animation.
 
RWP said:
Thanks -- this is terrific! :D
mclovin said:
Personally I use Inventor...
Click to expand...
If there is good OS software then by all means...but I am getting that while there are a number of packages none immediately jumps to the top of the list, except perhaps Blender.

So what commercial MCAD do you personally use?

Roy
Click to expand...

Roy,
That's very understandable that no particular software jumps to the top of the list. That's because there is no BEST software. It ALL depends on what your particular needs are. I feel very confident in stating this as I was an AE (Applications Engineer) for an Autodesk VAR for several years. I don't know how much your are willling to spend (if at all) but that is probably the first question to ask yourself (we live in a coin operated world). The next question to ask is what you can get for that amount of dough. That may take a fair amount of searching if you intend on conducting an exhaustive search. I would suggest that you start with the mainstream midrange (mid price range) modelers (Inventor, Solidworks, Solid Edge). These are purpose built MCAD design tools intended for serious machine/mechanical design for the manufacturing industry and their file formats play very well with modern CAM software. Finding an open source MCAD software may be a bit daunting as companies pour 10s of millions of dollars to develop and maintain their products and are unlikely to let anyone but themselves to get at the source code but I encourage you to look (Sketch up comes to mind but it's not manufacturing oriented). I believe they all have an API (Application Programming Interface) that you could use to program macros using VBA but they are not open source. Let me know if you find any OS stuff. I would be very interested. The next question to ask yourself is what do you want to do with the software. This can be a tough question to answer if you do not have a manufacturing backgroud/experience. But allow me to offer a few suggestions.

You'll need 3D (as you have already noted). You could go 2D but that's like opting for a conventional bike over an ebike. :) Now, if all you really want is some 3D solid models that you can give to a machine shop then vanilla AutoCAD may be your ticket (about $4K for a new seat). It is not user friendly or parametric but you can make great 3D solids and whatnot and that's about it. You can buy that online from the ADSK (Autodesk) website I believe. Or if you look around you may find someone (or a company that's going out of business) to sell you their seat. As a side note here, you don't ever really BUY software these days. What you buy is a license to use it (i.e. an activation code). It is possible to get a license transfer if you go with an ADSK product but you will have to deal with a seller and a VAR to make that happen (more leg work on your part). Don't buy software "used." It's probably a licensing violation and may not activate for use.

If you really want to do more serious mechanical design (assemblies, kinematic motion studies, interference detection, bill of materials, design automation, hard core production drawings) then the three programs I listed earlier is the place to start. If I remember right you are based in the US so you'll be able to find a VAR in your area rather easily. Also the user base (other users) for these porducts is very large in the States so that will up your chances of finding a UG to help you out. I would recommend that you not try to use the other types of modelers (non-MCAD) out their like 3DS Max or Viz or Maya etc. These are not really MCAD programs and do not apply well to manufacturing. They are great for their intended purposes but not for engineering.

I assume that you will be designing on your own (no collaboration) so you really won't have a need for a data/file management system so if someone tries to sell you that you can politely (and safely) ignore it.

If this beyond your budget then I encourage you to look into your local community/technical college. It is quite common for them to offer training courses in MCAD software. So, you could get trained and have access to the software at (hopefully) a reasonable tuition. They may even give you a student version to take home!

To answer your question directly: I use Inventor by Autodesk. I have used Solidworks too but I prefer IV. Many people I know prefer SW...half empty or half full? Take your pick. Since you are not (I believe) in a production environment (this is not for your job) you could use any of the midrange modelers and do just fine. It sounds like Alibre is worth a look too.

I hope that helps.

Cheers! :)
 
Minor headzup: CoCreate PE (free ver.) requires an internet connection to use, even after activation. It appears to phone-home periodically:

"... manual activation of our free software OneSpace Modeling Personal Edition always requires an active internet connection. Without it you will not be able to activate the program. If the computer on which you have installed Modeling PE does not have an internet connection at least every 72 hours you will not be able to start Modeling PE on that specific computer."
 
Alibre Design Standard special offer: $99

http://mkt.alibre.com/l/1004/2009-08-04/EI16A

Version Comparison:
http://www.alibre.com/products/ad_compare.asp
 
Gentlemen,

Coming back to this debate, is it possible to transfer designs from one program to another? I.e., is there a standard file exchange format? If I start with one program, am I stuck with it forever?

My experience with electronic CAD makes me a bit worried about MCAD. Despite the fact that there are standard output formats for PCB manufacture, its generally impossible to transfer a design from one environment to another.

Nick
 
You're right to worry about this, Nick....

You can transfer the geometry but not any historical/parametric information. Some software has limited ability to reverse-engineer imported geometry into individual editable "features". More recently, there's been a trend towards direct-editing (non-historic) of the solid geometry - this will allow the re-editing of designs from another program but not, obviously, in the same way as in the program of origin.

So, you can transfer the geometry but you lose all of the "intelligence" behind it.

The nearest thing to an exchange format is the ISO STEP format (AP 203/214).

There are also lots of expensive translators for converting from one format to another.
 
Miles said:
So, you can transfer the geometry but you lose all of the "intelligence" behind it.
.....
There are also lots of expensive translators for converting from one format to another.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what happens with printed circuit board software. You can import another program's output, and you can even tweak it a bit, but you can't really rework it.

With MCAD, can you import something and then use it as an object?
What programs are best for file exchange and general compatibility? I've been using Turbocad, but I can't say I'm wedded to it.

Nick
 
Tiberius said:
With MCAD, can you import something and then use it as an object?
Click to expand...
Yes, sure. This is what happens with models downloaded from manufacturers/suppliers.

What programs are best for file exchange and general compatibility? I've been using Turbocad, but I can't say I'm wedded to it.
Click to expand...

For interchange with other systems maybe SpaceClaim? Parametrics is ideal for our kind of work, though. I use Alibre, which is definitely a step up from Turbocad.

Also, Acrobat 3D can be used as an intermediary between formats.
 
Thanks Miles,

Another question, if I may. What about export for manufacture? What's the standard for that?
So far I've only printed drawings off and then made things by hand. In the electronics world I just email a file to someone and back comes a printed circuit board*. Presumably there are equivalent processes in the mechanical world. I'm thinking not only about CNC milling but about things like sheet metalwork.

Nick

*This is now a pretty standardised process and works just about every time. 10 or 15 years ago it wasn't so easy; there was nearly always a string of phone calls about file formats and photoplots being faxed back and forth for checking.
 
The format still depends on the manufacturing process and individual negotiation, I'm afraid. There are ISO standards for 2D drawings and 3D detailing of models, of course.

For 2D files, DXF is the de facto standard.

For RP, STL (a polygon format) is commonly used.

For CNC, STEP or whatever software the manufacturer uses........

Printed drawings still rule, mostly.... There's not even agreement on 1st angle or 3rd angle projection, though :p
 
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