Schwinn/32 10 Build Conclusions

I. Frame and Motor/Drive unit
1st, my goal, Keep it a proficient peddler that safely uses bicycle components, yet fast enough to have fun! Safe means the power/speed doesn't stress the bicycle brakes, forks, wheels, ect. .to near 'failure' Fast IMO means getting to run in the final An extra challenge is lite/fast enough to fend off getting lapped.

Boy, the Swhalabee(s) fairly glow, even brighter on the street in the dark

The frame; 1) extra wheelbase, 2) <69degree fork rake, 3) roomy chainstay
Kept coming back to this Schwinn GS; 42.6WB, 67rake, & 18.25" chainstay. Worried about it being Walmart quality, but the select 9 series is substantially beefier/higher quality.

The motor/drive. Almost went with a BMC600S but thanks goodness I perused the non-hub section of ES. If not for Matt's developments (and others supporting his drive), never would of considered RC. The Astro3210 was just the step up from BMC hubby. An analysis of Spooky Tooth racing verifies the 3210 has just enough umphh for some fun and a little racing (this is theoretical on paper, actual performance data later).

Oogle these: 1)Matts' throttle interface, 2) HV160 preprogramed w/ extra input caps, 3) Maguro throttle, 4) 130BCD sprocket adapter, 5) pair 1.5" motor mounts, 6) slipper clutch within large pulley! 2748 grams/6lb 1oz includes motor mounts; Thanks Matt.


If you're thinking of an RC build read this 1st http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/rc_drive/tutorial.htm

II Price list/links

Schwinn Frame (LBS) $400
Venom 2 chargers/12S3P lipo http://www.venom-group.com $1,030
jmygann on pg2 provides these links

charger ... http://www.rcplanet.com/Venom_DC_Pro_Ch ... NR0656.htm
pack .... http://www.rcplanet.com/Venom_LiPo_6S_1 ... R15021.htm

Click to expand...

Manitou Forks http://www.jensonusa.com $220
Sprockets & adapter Matt sells adapter (next entry) $ 55
Single stage Astro3210 w/ slipper clutch shumaker@OWC.net $1500 controller & interface, adaptor, FW, ect. .
RinoLite wheel builds w/ Swhalabee Big Appleshttp:/everybicycletire.com/$220
Avid BB7 disc brake http://www.jensonusa.com $80
Cycle Analyst, lg screen http://www.ebikes.ca/index.shtml $150
Shunt http://solar.altestore.com/search/?w=shunt&p=Q&ts=v2 $25

III Gearing

To start with, consider the low speeds of your gearing as well as top speeds. The CC HV160 doesn't like to be loaded at low speeds. Maybe 40mph seems a desirable top speed but not a good idea for a single speed. I killed 1 HV160 learning this.

There's a 45T rear sprocket on a TopHat adapter as a single speed LH drive. In the future, may attempt a 2 speed and/or #25H or #219 chain. The Astro3210 8Turn/44V is rated at 169Kv, so 7400rpm or 6320 @ 85% reduces to about 13.3:1/34mph/24"wheel with 46T.
http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/rc_drive/rc_drive_calculator.asp

Also, on the right side are 3 cogs, 12T, 15T, & 21T to be pedled in unison with the 3 speed chainring shifter. An 80-120 pedal cadence ranges 24-35mph with my 50T chainring, 12T cog, and 24" wheel.

The disc brake fitting, being taken by the LH drive, leaves cantilever braking at the rear. Yet going to a 24" wheel, from 26", requires relocated brake posts. Here the left side is almost done, just fill in epoxy and paint. Lots of grinding to do to get the right side ready. My experience with disc brakes at 45mph taught me that very little rear braking need be applied with 90% of the weight up front

When selecting gearing, don't focus on top speeds. Low speeds are a primary factor in loading/heating the ESC and should be considered.

IV Electric issues
Both Luke and Castle tec Thomas verify that the Castle HV160 has larger Mosfets and is more reliable than their HV110/120 ESCs for e-bike use. However, current limiting is tricky. I would be interested in using an HV80 using 10S for a mild mannered commuter. Also, check out this new ESC, it has useful current limiting features;
http://fightercatracing.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=87&category_id=10&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1
The 45amp shunt that's standard with the CA needs to be beefed up for rigorous use, though Justin of Ren Bikes thinks it's OK if you're keeping peak amp use under 100A.http://solar.altestore.com/search/?w=shunt&p=Q&ts=v2
In plugging in the 'throttlizer' (throttle to ESC interface) its' blk to brwn, red to red, wht to orange. Uses JST connectors(buy ahead of build).
ESC should arm itself (chirp & blink) with the throttle at zero.

Observations:
Best to solder ESC to motor. Bullet connectors work as well, double the 45amp andersons for secure 90+amp connection.

Castle Creations HV160 programming:
airplane endpoints soft (2)
24kz
soft cutoff
lo-timing
36 to 40V lo-volt-cutoff, your discretion
sensitive (160amp) current limiting

Burning issues I've yet to answer:
What is lost if say a 3220 10wind Astro is run at 44.4V(48V)? If rated for 96V/38amps, will it run continously at 48V/76amps(48V/94amps)
Believe now that there's a small trade off (in countinous terms) for a low Kv motor. Will find that out with next motor, a 3220 8turn Astro. That's due to the higher resistance found in lo-Kv's, however, higher resistance (increasing impedance) may be easier on the ESC

V Performance

Took a couple of short runs, brisk enough up to 32mph no pedal, 34mph pedal assist. Runs 1400W at 32mph no pedal, 1200W at 34mph w/ assist.

Just what the limits of heat soaking are is taking some time to pin point. Apparently the ESC allows the motor to draw 100+ amps regardless of what settings are used in the ESC and CA! At least for a few seconds. The 8T motor is rated for 48V/47amp continous; guess around 63amp for 60sec. However, if run at 80+ amps for 30 sec., the motor tends to get into a cycle of any power applied just turns into more heat. A 15min cool down is then required. *See Conclusions; page 9

50amp riding is a pleasure with moderately brisk acceleration up into the low 30's. If one is reaching and holding cruise, allowing the amp draw to drop (40, 30, even 20amp) for a while, then applying 60+amp works out. If hard on/off throttle is your ride, best to keep below 60amp. This isn't inconvenient if you are geared about or below 30mph. For pleasure cruising, 32-34mph is nice gearing, for hotdogging gear lower. If you don't mind having to monitor your CA and are looking for performance, multiple gearing to get motor loading minimal, would be the ticket. Around 39-40mph, 180lb, hi-pressure street tires, tucked position, fresh lipo charge, is the max countinous power that can be expected. 37mph more of an average top continous speed.

For occassional play, the motor tolerates some abuse. Running 90amp for 30 seconds gives one a sense of what a 3220 could do more continously :wink:

Grinding was exhastive. The brake post I thought was ready but needed a little more, then a little more. I used large small dremels to cut and grind, burned up the small one in the process. The 'on sale' cranks I bought didn't fit, but had the right number splines, also there wasn't any other type of bottom bracket/crank set that looked close. Some mechanic, that I don't know, at the LBS told me I had the wrong bottom bracket, something about tabs, There aren't any tabs associated with the bottom bracket. After much pounding, grinding, touch up painting, got the left done. I took my dremels, preshaped the splines, and the right side snugly fit after a few wacks with the rubber mallet

Also switched to Matt's 130BCD sprocket adapter as it's lighter and offsets further inward toward the spokes enabling the LH drive chain to align.

After moving the motor/drive unit up a half inch several times, this location appears feasable. The chain path on the Left and one on the Right align, as well as the drive pulleys clear the crank/pedal path. Of course I trimmed both the motor and jackshaft.

Got a wrong front axle adapter from Jenson, the difference between a '120mm to QR' or a 'QR to 120mm' grrrr

Looks good so far.

Bear in mind, when you first run the drive, the clutch may not be set correctly for your setup. So, it may need to be adjusted to allow more or less slip depending on the specific needs.

Matt

Looks great! I really like your frame, especially the extra room right where it allows your motor and reduction to be mounted.

Do you have a link to the rear brake adapter? I have a frame that has rear disc brake mounts, and I may install a left-side-drive, and I want to convert to rim-brakes in the back if I do that...

edit: THANKS! the link below is good and the price is right...

Didn't know beforehand, but now I can see that there's room even with the 26" wheel

A link, sure;
http://www.danscomp.com/489051.php?cat=PARTS
or
http://www.danscomp.com/489057.php#

Glad your around Matt, guess the detailed instructions to adjust the slip clutch are forthcoming :wink:

(Hmmm, super simple; thank you Matt)

It is super simple. You see that huge nut on the end of the clutch? Loosten the two set screws (2mm allen wrench) and tighten the large nut for more clutch grab, or loosten it for more slip. I normally adjust the clutch about 12th of a turn at a time or even less. I just loosten the set screws, then move the big nut a tiny bit, lightly snug the set screws (you do not want to ruin the threads for the big nut), and try it out. If it is not quite perfect, I repeat the process. It only takes a couple minutes to get it dialed in. No problem at all.

Matt

Looks like a solid system. Are you going to fit a mudguard to protect the motor from spray and such?

It's too bad that you can't still run the disk on the back. Even if you don't need the braking power, it would be nice not to have to fuss with new caliper mounts. I think that Recumpence makes a fitting for this? Not sure.

Katou

No mudguard, but I regret not leaving the brake adapter in 1 solid piece rather than cutting the center part out as it would've acted as a partial mudguard. Its' purpose is a fair weather fun bike and hopefully can double to 'play' race a few times. Won't be hauling groceries on this set of wheels :wink:

Had a few hardware mismatches to work thru, needed to shim the motor mounts, and my famous(infamous) kittens caused another mishap. Noticed 1 playing with my 'titanium' front axle skewer nut. Being the diameter of a dime and some 6-7mm thick, didn't think it'd get too lost. Later my wife and I took the house apart looking for it to no avail; We wonder if he swallowed it So much for $40 titanium skewers and organized spoke nipple sets :|

Put some handgrips on it that look as a killer whale, thus I may dub this bike "Orca." (ToyRacer final name) Also remeasured the wheelbase, the 24" rear wheel and front forks produced a longesh 44" wheelbase

Monday(12/6) I'll have the bicycle components and 2 chains in place, everything but the electrics. Will post pictures, looks different, like a racing e-bike IMO.

Looks good man! You even splurged and got the slipper clutch. What happened to the disk brake mounts? I don't see any in the pic. Are you planning on making the spooky tooth race this spring?

Yep, here's todays' foto; still have to adjust out a few things, find the parts and fit in the singleator/chain tensioner, but am ready to solder Lipo harnesses, fit batts in a carrier, and beg for help how to hook up wiring This 12/10 weekend this weekend. .


Heck 'yah I'm going to Spooky Tooth, the official birth of our e-bike racing sport :wink: See the Oct2010 Spooky Tooth Flyer Left side of foto. Dogmanz(Father of E-bike Racing), Ed, Amberwolf, and I better see you there and a doz other e-bike builders. I'm grilling Tri-tip sandwiches there as well.

The front disc just needed a different sort of adapter for the 203mm disc, the back disc fittings are being used to fit the rear sprocket as part of the drive unit.

What bike 'ya bringing Etard?

Man, your bike is lookin clean, white on white! Very nice. Where will you be coming from for the race?

Yep, I'll be there, already got the thumbs up from the missus. We will be bringIng a trailer full of toys, plan on doing some backwoods exploring on quads dirtbikes and mt bikes after race weekend. Hopefully I will have the direct drive Avanti dirtjumper in full effect. It will be Colossus powered with HV110 and a sensorless (maybe sensored) 6 Fet from JRH, with 12S lipo. If that's not going, I'll just putt around with my hub motored GT.

Forget the gassers, I'll be aiming for you since you will be in the lead!

160 amps eh.. lol.. that little astro is gonna cook !.. ( I get mine too hot to hold if i sustain 60+ amps !! ) But it sure holds up well !!!

nice work man ! 8)

SoSauty said:

III Gearing

To start with, there's a 45T rear sprocket on a TopHat adapter as a single speed LH drive. In the future, may attempt a 2 speed and/or #25H or #219 chain.

Click to expand...

Beautiful .... what motor chain are you using ?

Forget the gassers, I'll be aiming for you since you will be in the lead!

Click to expand...

Etard, don't say stuff like that, it'll just get in my head, then you, Thud, Y-pedal, Luke,Methods, and some of the other renowned tortue testers will show up with their preened 'Colossus' motors and such I'm from Bako (Bakersfield) CA.

Chain is good 'ole 1/8" bmx nickel plated, think the side plates is the major contributer to the strength.http://www.gizmology.net/sprockets.htmhttp://www.cantitoeroad.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=28_47&osCsid=30e4b158acb0a525e5354414c6629ad5

However, I'm eyeing the #219. Would love to get a #219 freewheel to fit, then machine down the rear adapter to fit BCD110mm, adapt the 219Kevlar sprockets to that, and for a finale double the back sprockets and use a second derailer on the chainstay to get a 2 speeder

Yeah, guess I've gotta keep an eye on the CA,wonder about a HV120 ESC? Whether an Astro 32 10 can run a continous 39-40mph with the right gearing is yet to be seen, maybe Y-pedal has insite here If the 10turn motor gets 37+ I could try an 7 or 8turn. May tortue test this half a soup can 2.8h.p. motor, if it'll run 60amps on/off mostly throttle on racing style, good, if it melts, then try the 8turn or 3215/3220

Darn, I want to get on with this build, but then there's hanging out the Christmas lights and remodeling the kitchen as a present for wife, where's my Christmas Spirit?? build, build, build . . .

I know what you mean. I am stuck at home doing paperwork and such when I "Should" be at the shop prepping my bike!

Man, what ever happened to my priorities?!

Matt

What is the volts ? amps ?

I am very interested to see how your bike performs in the race, as I'm sure are others. I was very surprised to see the improvement that Recumpence got by changing ratios. Just goes to show that there are still significant improvements out there. It hasn't all been done yet.

If I can get enough cells in time, I would like to sponsor a bike in the race with A123's. Do you think that there would be interest in that?

I know that lipo is the lightest weight choice, but hey, I don't have a good supplier for those!

Anyway, don't count on anything from me until you hear about it in a general announcement thread.

Assuming I could get enough cells together, I would send a racer enough cells to build the pack or packs necessary to complete the race. I wonder how much juice that would be?

4, 2kwh packs? More?

If I can get the cells, I will do this. The only question is whether it will be in time for this coming race.

Speaking of which, what date is the race?

Katou

Actually, all that would be needed is to run his 10 turn motor in Delta and he will see around 13 to 14k rpm. Then go to a larger chainring on the rear (if there is room). This will net nearly twice the power.

Matt

Come on down to Tucson in April (haven't heard a specific date) Katou, it'll be a happening you won't regret. Be good prep for Luke's July/Aug E-bike gathering. Yes, there were several e-bike guest without a steed to ride. Track opened at 10am, good idea to get there well before race time.

Due to the Castle HV160 controller, the best we have for now yet still limits voltage, the lipo set up will be 12S or nominal 44V. Heard there's problems with using current limiting yet these little Astros will draw enough current to melt themselves; I've got Ypedals' thread memorized.
Amps in the 50-90A range; depends.

Hmmm, delta 1.7x power. "Heat is the limiting factor for continous output." Do you have a mini-aluminium Astro radiator for me Matt :wink:

I actually make heatsinks for Astro motors. I am out of stock right now, however.

It takes alot to fry an Astro, however.

Oh, hey, I have a couple sources for 80 tooth chainrings now!

Matt

This is where I'm at as of Fri.12/10:

There's the 6 lipo batts, 25C 5000mah; the 2 on the left are paired in series. Made 2 12ga harnesses w/ Andersons.

#1 Could the other 4 batts also be plugged together (series) for 2 more pair (3 pair total) making pairs 1a&1b, 2a&2b, 3a&3b.

#2 Then connect 3 red+ leads of batt 1a, 2a, 3a to the red harness; connect 3 black leads of 1b, 2b, 3b to the black harness; (is this 12S3P) and plug the red & black harnesses to the charger
or,
Should I separate the series pairs and charge: a)only 1 batt at a time, b)only 3 in parallel

(edit reply to Matt: knowing I can charge in 12S3P configuration opens a few possibilities; have 2 chargers, plan to get more Lipo )