RC Greyborg build thread

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
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Sharkboat   100 mW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by Sharkboat » Jan 09 2012 2:55pm

Great build! Do you know the Kv (rpm/volt) or the number of turns for your motor?

comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Jan 30 2012 8:37pm

Hi Sharkboat, the motor is a 10 turn from what I can remember, 130kv also springs to mind, it seems like a long while back I ordered it.

Still struggling to get rid of the wobble in the drive side under pedal power... Changed the crank arms, the freewheel and the Ti BB spindle, which was a pain and it is still there, next I need to make a new adapter before I loose my rag all together.

Got the rear calliper mounted with a pile of washers, over 1/2 inch. Had to raise the mount upwards by 2 washers also as the disc was hitting the pads. Sorted now at least.

Started soldering bullet connecters to get things wired up which is a new experience. I glued a 3rd bit of plastic to a double holder to hopefully make the connection to the 3 motor wires a 1 way fool proof connect, once I work out which way round the wires go.
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comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Feb 15 2012 8:29am

Slowly getting close to powering her up for the first time, missing one connecter that I am waiting on in the mail, grrrrr.

Installed a 4" strip of thin aluminium to support the batteries and spread the loads a little, batteries only just fit, not too much space for padding unfortunately, squeezed 3 bits of insulating tape under the batteries for them to sit on and not chafe. The additional insulating tape is just to stop me shorting things on the cell bolts.

Starting to work on the canopy modification whilst stuck. Plan is to widen it forward by 3cm each side, tapering back to 0 at the seat post. The forward edge of the canopy will also be wider tapering back to 5mm at the bottom bracket. I bought some 2" fibergass tape and started adding some small tabs just to get the lines right before getting into the glass. I am thinking 3 layers should be enough without creating too much additional weight. I will also set a stainess washer in the glass to secure to the rivnuts on the frame so the holes do not deform over time.

Few things I do not know how to solve yet.

I have balance wires connected to the main pack, I have 2 x24v BMS that I have a drawing for. What I do not know is how to charge the pack? I want to be able to plug in a charger without taking off the canopy but not sure how to do it. Should I have 2 sets of power cables to the batteries? One to the controller, one to the BMS from the charge plug? Not figured out how to isolate the controller without pulling a plug that requires the canopy off. The battery switch I bought is also too big to fit though I would like to isolate from outside the canopy.

Wiring the motor, 3 wires come out, they are all black. At the moment I have the middle wire going to the middle wire from the controller, if the other 2 wires are wrong, does it reverse the direction the motor turns or blow something?
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rojitor   100 kW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by rojitor » Feb 15 2012 8:39am

Neat and tidy build, it's a good thing the greyborg is plenty of space for your needs ;)

comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Feb 15 2012 9:06am

Hi Rojitor

The Greyborg is a great platform for a build, I cannot say enough good things about it. Hal and Accountant has done a huge favour to the ebike comunity allowing them to be available at what is probably well below cost. I cannot begin to fathom the countless hours spent on R&D that is not included in the frame price. It is an absolute steal and will be the platform for my next bike too, if they are still available, once this bike is finished.

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Mar 01 2012 2:20pm

Maiden voyage did not happen, the controller does not seem to want to talk to the motor.... Tried 2 different throttles, the result is the same, it just barely turns over the motor. I measured up to a max of 6 volts at the motor when throttle was active then it just dies.... Same result with CA disconnected too, not so good. If I cannot resolve the issue I will have to swap it out for a different type. On the positive side the LED lights from Ebkes.ca kick butt, they are super bright.

Started glassing up the canopy whilst nothing else to do. Built a little shutter of tape and stir sticks for the first layers of glass, filed the voids with low density West System fairing, then glassed 2 layers of 2" glass tape from the other side. Still needs a bit of tweaking to get it to sit just right. It will be as wide as fits between the cranks so that hopefully the chain on the drive side is mostly covered. after sanding it should not add too much additional weight, I hope.
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comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Mar 01 2012 2:28pm

Just ordered one of these 48v breakers that I think look good and neat for an ebike applications? I ordered the 35amp one but they have a huge range.....

http://www.polarismarineelectricsupply. ... 4801/7037/
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comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Jun 02 2012 2:57am

After a break, I am going to get this finally finished.

The thing that stumped me is the sensorless 12 FET lyen controller I have will not spin up the motor.

Solution will be to add Burtie's opto sensor inside the can, then buy a sensored controller, hopefully that will have me up and running. I am open to sugestions on the best opto senor compatible controller out there, I have a PM sent to Lyen also.

Before and first peek inside can, no balancing blob of stuff as some of the others I have seen.... good or bad thing?

The wires look quite close to the can too, normal? I don't want to see a short at this stage.

I had a couple of nylon washers that looked like they could work instead of the balsa and metal washer supplied with the kit.

The paper disc was stuck down with 3m doublesided tape.

I just need to sort out what to do with the wires as the color codes I have seen do not match my controller. I think I need a new sensored controller......

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comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Sep 06 2012 2:49pm

For some reason unknown to me I cannot upload photos any more which is a tad frustrating.

I finsihed glassing and primiming the fatter canopy and am happy over all with the result.

I taped the frame with packing tape, installled it with machine screws, bogged the entire edge with bog so the frame really does fit the frame.

After waiting 2 months for a sensored controller that never arrived I bought a GNG kit, paid the express delivery and will get it a new mount welded to the frame to just get this thing running some time in next two weeks.

I am also looking at breaking the battery apart and a reconfig to 44v 30ah and adding another 10 cells as pedal cadance would be better for the new kit.

Just a little sad not to be able to post photos of progress. I know what I am like for reading build threads!

This wiill get finished one day.

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » May 24 2013 2:28pm

I have a day off tomorrow, something should happen on the bike.

For some reason, the motor will just not turn over, despite all the connections looking good.

It has the same weak response as when I had the Astro connected???

The battery is new and fully charged showing 50+ v, maybe it just does not have any umph???

I am rubbish at electrics, and totally lost.

Seriously thinking of buying a turn key bike and just getting on the road.

All I have so far is the ebike grimace of failure.

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mwkeefer   10 MW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by mwkeefer » May 24 2013 2:34pm

On the GNG, reverse the blue and green hall and phase wires, you should be fine :)
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

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motomoto   1 kW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by motomoto » May 24 2013 11:41pm

Looks like an Astro Flight motor. Figure in 10 % heat and you will be alright. In my opinion,
the wye motors which is what they sell, sucks. Wire it in delta and have some fun.

comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » May 25 2013 5:51am

Hi MWKeefer

I did swap the green and blue phase wires but it did not help, the motor still just barely crawls over a partial turn.

I just charged the batteries again which only took an hour till the charger light went from red to green.

Everything appears to be connected right.

I swapped all the standard connects for terminal blocks and crimped bootlace ends on to be sure there was no loose wires.

When I apply the throttle it just barely tries to turn over the motor.

The CA and 3 position switch are not connected.

Could my battery just be dead?

It is probably 2 years old but has never been used, I thought LifePo4 had a better shelf life than that?

Motomoto

I did have an Astro in the frame to begin with but could not get it to spin up. I kind of shelved it thinking the GNG kit would at least just get me on the road for now. It had the same issue, it just barely turned over....

Next stop will be a new battery I guess unless anybody can spot my mistake?
May 2013 wiring.jpg
May 2013 charging.jpg

comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » May 30 2013 5:39am

Thinking that maybe I had a dry connection on the battery or a few bad cells, I pulled the pack apart and checked each cell. Most were 3.34v, a couple were 3.60v, none were outside of this range.

I built up a new 10ah x 48v pack with 16 cells, all which were 3.34v, total pack voltage was 53.5v, I then charged it, voltage then was 58.9v.

I connected it again, hoping the bug would be gone but the motor still gave just a partial turn when the throttle is applied.

Any educated guess why the motor will not turn over? Can a spark arrester stop the flow of amps to the motor?

If the battery is duff then I will be looking for a Cell Man special but I just need to be sure before blowing another chunk on a new battery.
10ah config trial.jpg

Stevil_Knevil   10 kW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by Stevil_Knevil » May 30 2013 10:41am

..the motor still gave just a partial turn when the throttle is applied.

Any educated guess why the motor will not turn over? Can a spark arrester stop the flow of amps to the motor?
If the controller is trying to pull amps through a precharge resistor, that would be the problem.
Once your spark arrester circuit has been connected, the controller's capacitors will slowly fill in ~5 seconds. After 5 seconds, it's job is done -> open the precharge resistor connection, then close the main discharge connection (bypassing the resistor).
Then -hopefully- go for a ride :mrgreen:

Speed safely!
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comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » May 30 2013 11:21am

Hi Steevil

That gem of information just made my day, thank you very much!

I just installed a loop connector that I never knew had a purpose and the motor turned over in anger for the first time :D

This means I can put things back together and try to go for a spin in the current setup at least till I shred the belt like everybody else!

It also means that was the problem why the Astro would never fire up either, grrrr, learning is hard.

rodgah   10 kW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by rodgah » May 30 2013 6:30pm

Stevil_Knevil wrote: pull amps through a precharge resistor
I was going to suggest that exact thing a few days ago but at the risk of sounding condescending I bit my tongue. Happy days then mate, better prepare that video camera for us :wink: .

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comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Jun 03 2013 2:37am

Rodgah - never be afraid to chime in! You have some great skills, I wish I could weld.

Well since my steep learning curve eventually got the motor to turn over (thanks again Steevil), I decided to retrace my steps and get back to my original plan.

I pulled the GNG off the frame and the controller, this will eventually get modified with the best of the mods once all the upgrade parts are available and then used for back to back comparison.

I re-installed the Recumpence Astro drive and controller and low and behold it spun up, once I bypassed the pre-charge resister, fancy that. :oops:

It spins really fast and I was amazed at the force it created for such a small motor. I spun it up half a dozen times with the wheel off the ground, sometimes it was a smooth ramp up, sometimes there was a rough sputter and stammer, it was smooth more than it stammered. I kind of figured there were going to be issues with a high RPM motor and a sensorless controller but had never seen the effect before, easing right off and then applying the throttle again seemed to get it spinning properly at least in no load test condition.

There will be test driving under Astro RC power today for the first time...... :D

I took a couple of recent shots of how the fatter canopy looks, the big 48v switch is now gone for the moment, it was too visually obtrusive, but i might try to build it in later.

The left non drive side of the canopy has been fixed together as one piece, my idea is that this will be machine screwed on and be pretty permanent, it would have the breaker/switch and charge point fixed to it.

The right drive side canopy is still a 2 piece affair and will provide access for everything, it is only about 10 machine screws, so it is not a real hardship to remove.

The things to do list is long and includes the following, finish and paint the canopies after reducing the thickness to 3" at the controller (too wide between legs), relocate drive to bottom of frame for better chain line, add Burties Opto sensor and new sensored Lyen controller, add pedelec sensor, program 3 position switch and hide it, rebuild battery back to 20ah config with BMS, swap the Alfine rear wheel to the Rohloff once I kill it, finish making the fiber glass plug for the carbon fiber mud guards, lighten all metal parts where possible, swap out all stainless screws to titanium plus all the usual cleaning/polishing and fine tuning stuff. There is also the Jobe motor sat on my shelf that will at some point get fitted once everything else is sorted.
Astro Greyborg Working.jpg
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Stevil_Knevil   10 kW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by Stevil_Knevil » Jun 03 2013 2:48am

Properly assimilated, brother :twisted:
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comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Jun 04 2013 1:56pm

Assimilation complete, though not functioning as it should....

Teething troubles involved one of the belt cogs rubbing, that needed some filing on the frame, the other primary cog did not have a good line and had to be tweaked too.

Once I had her running nicely it then started spitting the chain that leads to the BB, this got tightened a few times but appears it just does not have enough wrap on the Eno, this will need work and an idler of sorts before the motor can release it's full potential.

No good ride yet, but efforts will continue until the true potential of the Borg is released.

A salute to HAL, creator of the Greyborg, I will eventually do your frame justice.

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mwkeefer   10 MW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by mwkeefer » Jun 04 2013 2:35pm

I have to tell you, the Astro on the greyborg frame looks Excellent!

In general the build quality is quite nice, I'm sorry you had issues at first with the "loop" but I'm wondering how the optical sensors are working out on the Astro for you with your install method... I notice your washers seem much lower than the one's I've test fitted and I'm curious if thats caused any issues in optical pickup because your way seems much simpler :)

Keep up the great work, it will pay off in the end!

-Mike
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

comradegerry   100 W

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Jun 05 2013 1:13am

Hi Mike

When I put the Astro can back together with the Burties opto sensor thing and the disc, it appeared that there was not sufficient space in the can. Maybe my windings bulge out further than usual in places?

I could not get it back together and bent/broke one of the resistor type things on the board trying to close it up, hence I took it back out and was trying to run uncensored just to get the setup up and running and prove the drive train side of things.

I will try to install the sensor again further down the track once I get a sparks to fix it, I will try with just the one washer to create a little more clearance and hopefully it works, if it is not then too far from the reader. I think the sensor and the 12 Fet sensored Lyen controller will eventually make for a stable system, especially when I curb the amps with the CA to a max of 20 or even 15 to try to save the Alfine from dying prematurely.

Chain tensioner is next on the to do list, it will eventually get there.......

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by comradegerry » Jun 10 2013 11:58am

I managed to make a bracket to hold a small chain jockey wheel (temporarily pinched off the GNG motor) to give a little more wrap on the drive chain and took the Borg out for a short spin....

I was in a busy marina area with too many pedestrians in the car park to get it up to full noise, but it seemed happy to do an estimated 12-15 mph in 5th without going WOT, and most importantly the chain stayed on for the duration of the test.

The noise of the motor is going to take a little getting used to.. On the plus side I do not need a bell as pedestrians can hear me coming from some distance.

There is remarkable power available, and the frame raises easy on the front shock under mild acceleration.

I will not be shifting gears under power to try to help the rear hub last a wee while, I think it might be the weak link once everything else is dialed in.

There is a fair amount of play in the BB freewheel too, which considering it is a new Eno does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Once I get things really locked down and secure there will be some WOT field testing.

First impression is encouraging though.... :D

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recumpence   100 GW

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Re: RC Greyborg build thread

Post by recumpence » Jun 11 2013 5:20pm

Man, I am so happy to see the bike rolling!

The stuttering you encountered may be from running at no-load. Odds are, under normal riding, you will not notice any stuttering.

It is strange seeing one of my first drives just now being used. There are over 100 of them out there at this point. :)

Matt
1% of the world's population can think "Outside the box". The rest are firmly stuck within the box. Where are you?

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