The *Genesis* is only the begining...

[GITech]

Ok, here I go...the beginning, or should I say, the Genesis, of my build thread.

But a short post for tonight though...my eyes are falling out as I downloaded and started trying google SketchUp this afternoon, and I just "finished" getting the basic idea drawn out.

Thought I'd share what I have so far before I crash for the night.

I'm hungry and I think I'm dehydrated...!

I just couldn't wait, I'll type up more tomorrow, so see ya then.

Good night,
Jay

[Idontwanttopedal]

Like it going to keep a eye on this

[lostrack]

Good to see an original approach man. What's the deal with simultaneous driving of the rear wheel? Is there a gear selection deal you've got going on?

[GITech]

Thanks Idontwanttopedal and lostrack!

Oh, what a night...

Yep, gear selection it is + option of coasting or regen + torque protection + redundancy + compact simplicity

Since Farfle is making custom extended "lower's" for this bike, it got me thinking in a whole new direction! I like the idea of a longer wheel base for added stability at speed, the prospect of being able to put more power to the ground before lifting the front tire, and the added strength of steel over the stock aluminum. I'm still just hoping he can accommodate my design ideas as he is not familiar with all I have in mind yet, but that should be clarified soon as I will point him here to check it out.

The bullet points of my design are these:

1. Every part of the drive train will be mounted on the new custom lower of the rear suspension, or on plates that mount to the new lower, going directly to the back wheel hoping to get good efficiency and durability.

2. This leaves more room for batteries and such in the frame of the bike, and possibly will allow me more freedom in design when it comes to a final look for hiding it all.

3. This design gives me, what I think, will be all I wanted in my ebike system with the fewest parts and the least complexity as it is basically a drive train and gearbox and regen (option) all in one...with redundancy to boot to get back home if something that is "doubled" does give up while I'm "far-far away".

Breakout explanation of the components and their functionality:

1. Small Green "pinion" gear: motor pinion, fixed, self explanatory.
2. Large Green "spur" gear: This will be captured within a torque limiter, giving me full drive train protection. (Need to figure out the torque rating needed here!)
3. Small Blue "pinion" gear: This will be fixed to this jack shaft and spin full time.
4. Large Blue "spur" gear: This will be mounted to a freewheel and be the low speed high torque work horse. (ACS crossfire or better?)
5. Small Red "pinion" gear: This will be mounted in a bearing and be freewheeling, but can be engaged by a dog for "2nd gear" and/or a "regen option".
6. Large Red "spur" gear: Fixed mounted behind and with the disk brake via a "Top Hat" ( http://kingssalesandservice.com/ , I think I will be getting most of my sprockets from them, especially the big ones!)
7. Small Gray gear on the right side of the wheel axle: This is just a normal freewheel that will connect to my bikes original crank for 3-speeds of peddling, if needed.

Here's how I "think" it will work:

1. From take off, in "first gear", power will be transmitted from the motor to the torque limiter and on to the Blue "high torque/low speed" gear set, to the wheel through its' freewheel.
2. Once the 1st gear speed limit is reached (~15-20mph?), I select second gear by shifting to engage the Red gear via a dog (thanks Thud!), until top speed is reatched...

While in 2nd gear I have some choices:

1. Stay at speed by maintaining a throttle position/cruise.
2. Coast by letting off the throttle and switching back to 1st gear/freewheel, thus disengaging the high speed/fixed side.
3. Slow down using regen (if equipped) by staying in the 2nd/fixed gear and activating said regen.

And this is all within this simple drive train!

To complete the analogy there are still the "other options" of:

1. Peddling at 3 different speeds using the front dérailleur.
2. Using the disk breaks to slow down faster and to come to a complete stop.

OMG, it's getting late again! And boy did I get carried away with the numbering?!

Of course I don't have this ALL figured out yet and I've got a lot of questions I hope the experienced genius's here can help me with...but we'll leave that for another time.

Later,
Jay

[E-racer]

Regen is one thing I had to give up by deciding on the Nuvinci. It was a tough decision to make because I love the regen on my 80-100 goped. I may put a 9c hub motor in my front wheel for Regen if I run into a good deal one day.

Your idea for multiple ratios should work out. Keep in mind at 12s 48V on a 130kv 80-100 with a 26" you need 20:1 to get to 24 mph and then prob 12:1 for right at 40mph @ max motor rpm. Here is an old tool I still love to use. http://scooters.tziworld.com/progs/index.html

What controller are you running?

[GITech]

Thanks for the advice E-racer,

I will check it out! I do still have to figure out my voltage and gear ratios...

One thing I think I might be able to do is build this system up gradually, so I can start with a low(er) voltage, get one side running for single speed use, and then add to it as time goes on and funds become available.

So I need to come up with a plan that will allow me to do this "scaling" economically. ie; buy parts I will need later in the full version, but can be put to use in the mean time in a "compromise" setup so they don't go to waist. Maybe like buying the "Large Red" gear now but using it where the "Large Blue" gear will go for a medium single speed.

Time go get serious I guess and do some math!

Jay

[Miles]

Links to more calculators, here: viewtopic.php?p=108648#p108648

[GITech]

Edit: Thanks Miles! What do you think about this one? Should I stop using this one for another in the link?

Hey E-racer, don't know if you know about this "R/C Vehicle Speed Calculator"

http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/top_speed.html

You can use up to 4 different gear sets/ratios, gives some other useful info, and it seems easy to use! (if I'm doing it right)

Here's what I came up with just now messing with it. Kind of a hybrid of what you have and what I have/would like in it's final form...I think?!

(Note: I'm guessing at the 60amp current limit of your 77kv motor and the 66.6volts is what I guess would be good for it/what I'd eventually like??)

With a 9t motor pinion and 27t spur in the torque limiter for an initial ratio of 3:1

1st gear: additional 6.4:1 using a 9t pinion and a 58t sprocket (Blue gears in my drawing).


2nd gear: additional 3.2:1 using an 18t pinion (guessing at size but I know it has to be 'bigger' to accommodate for the bearing and dog stuff it will need) and a 58t spur (Red gears in drawing) Hmm, looks like my drawing needs some editing!


What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Jay

[Miles]

Jay,

That looks a useful program, not ideal for bikes though. Check out SW Bluto's program on the link I posted (if it's still working..) My spreadsheet calculator gives you a breakdown of the power and torque values required in different conditions. Also, see RWPs spreadsheet which covers the useful parts in the RC car program, missing out the misleading bits...

I think you should avoid using 9t sprockets whenever possible.

Maybe consider using a synchro belt drive for the first stage?

[GITech]

Thanx miles, will do!

What are the issues with using 9t sprockets?

I imagine:

1. Noise?
2. Chain wear/stretch do to much deflection?
3. Efficiency loss due to fast chain direction change?

Any others? And which one should cause the most concern?

Why is a belt better for a first stage?

If i did stick with chain, what should be the smallest I should consider?

Thanks,
Jay

[Miles]

What are the issues with using 9t sprockets?

See: http://chain-guide.com/basics/2-2-1-chordal-action.html

[Miles]

Why is a belt better for a first stage?

Much quieter, less maintenance and cleaner.

If i did stick with chain, what should be the smallest I should consider?

#25 for the first stage.

[lostrack]

I can totally see the energy you have for this project, it's great. How long do you think it will realistically take to get going?

Are you CNCing the chainrings yourself or using stock?

How are you mounting all of the chainrings on each side? Is the freewheel plus 80 tooth sprocket on one side going to be difficult? It's not going to drive your cranks is it?

Cool stuff man

[E-racer]

I suggest running it at 12s 100amp geared for 35. That would be geared 14:1 or so. This is how my Goped is geared and it is very fun! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NUuBaM0uFY I still have the same questions for you. What controller are you running? and do you have the 130kv or 180kv 80-100?

[GITech]

I can totally see the energy you have for this project, it's great. How long do you think it will realistically take to get going?

Are you CNCing the chainrings yourself or using stock?

How are you mounting all of the chainrings on each side? Is the freewheel plus 80 tooth sprocket on one side going to be difficult? It's not going to drive your cranks is it?

Cool stuff man

I have no machines, just hand tools. If I need something made that would require CNC I will probably be begging someone here to help me!

The left side chain ring will be mounted to a "TopHat", and the right side to a freewheel, which shouldn't be a problem as the same site that offers the tophat also sells custom sprockets and claims they will do a custom bore and stuff for you for FREE! (the link is in my post above) (BTW the mounting for all the gears is explained in that post too )

I think it's going to take longer than I'd like, that's for sure!

Later,
Jay

[GITech]

I suggest running it at 12s 100amp geared for 35. That would be geared 14:1 or so. This is how my Goped is geared and it is very fun! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NUuBaM0uFY I still have the same questions for you. What controller are you running? and do you have the 130kv or 180kv 80-100?

Nice Goped, like the sound!

Ok, I will have to stay at 12s for now as the 80-100-B 130kv I have now is the old version with the one piece base and bearing tube. I also spooged epoxy all over the winds. It was all frizzy like!

I think I will shoot for 35-38mph in second gear!

What speed should I shoot for in first for really good acceleration, wheelie poppin, hill climbin fun?

The controller, I'm still not sure on, but I'm pretty much leaning toward one of the "infinion board" models of method or lyen for all the features that are available such as regen, cruise, three speed selector switch, etc, and the great support I hear they provide, and to support our community!

What one would you all recommend? I'd like the option of higher voltage in the future for say a 66v nominal system if/when I get a new motor and can rewind it.

Thanks everyone,
Jay

[Miles]

I think I will shoot for 35-38mph in second gear!

What speed should I shoot for in first for really good acceleration, wheelie poppin, hill climbin fun?

If that's what you want, total reduction for 2nd gear needs to be about 10:1. First gear, at least 20:1, I'd say.

[izeman]

could you post a source for this state-of-the-art bike stand?
a fantastic mixture of low tech, and IT high tech *ggg*
i hope you let the cat out of it's cage before! scnr!

[GITech]

Thanks Miles, Is that what I want? Is there evidence that there are more advantageous speeds to shoot for with a setup like mine, ie; 80-100-130, mountain bike, 2 speeds, etc...?

izeman, *GGG*..arbage? Yup, those are used 40 gig sata HDD's. They make great spacers for all sorts of spacing needs! re-cycle! (pun! )

I used to do PC repair for a living, my company had more than 500 of these 40gig sata HDD ready for the recycler. They were pulled from a product line that was buggy with sata, but stable with IDE, like a recall, they were all replaced. Same with 80gig and some 160gig HDD as well. Still virtually new! Need an HDD, or a few to build a sick raid array?

Later,
Jay

[E-racer]

10:1 and 20:1 if you do a 2 speed. 14:1 if you do a single speed. This is all assuming you are running 100amp ish. So once again... what controller are you running?

[GITech]

10:1 and 20:1 if you do a 2 speed. 14:1 if you do a single speed. This is all assuming you are running 100amp ish. So once again... what controller are you running?

Thanks

The controller, I'm still not sure on, but I'm pretty much leaning toward one of the "infinion board" models of method or lyen for all the features that are available such as regen, cruise, three speed selector switch, etc, and the great support I hear they provide, and to support our community!

What controller, these or otherwise is recommend? I'd like the option of higher voltage in the future for say a 66v nominal system if/when I get a new motor and can rewind it.

Jay

[E-racer]

I think the Lyen controller is an excellent choice. I have no experience with them though. I truly think you should build a 14:1 single speed at 12s first just to get you riding. Once the EV bug hits you after the first ride, your motivation will go through the roof.

[thepronghorn]

How about a 12fet infineon with 3077 fets as Thud has done for some of his 80-100 motors?

[GITech]

I will eventually be going with one of these controllers, but to be honest, I have got to get the mechanics worked out first! I mean, I will probably use my 90-100amp super simple RC ESC on 22.2v at first just to see the wheels spin and take me around the block a few times till I can go to the next step after that, which is a long way off...ya know.

I read ES, links pointed to from here, google search, compare, etc, for something like 12 hours a day, no joke. I feel I'm at a dead end trying to come to a conclusion on what will work with what.

I'm taking notes on "standard" sizes and the like for fitting things together, but I have never laid my hands on any of this stuff before. I just can't afford to buy a bunch of stuff just to see if it will work out or not either.

That's what I need you guys here with a lot of experience with these things to help me with.

Lets start with one element of the build at a time, and go step by step.

Right now I need help deciding and learning about what rear hub setup will get me where I need to go for this design.

It needs to have a standard 6 bolt disk brake mount on one side, enough room on the other for 2 freewheels, and I would think rated for MTB riding (ie not road).

I've seen this can be done on a cassette type hub by broaching ENO freewheels, but I can't see myself spending that kind of cash for 2 ENO's. I am also concerned with the fact that these then mount to a cassette spline, which is also freewheeling, and since I've seen evidence that most of these splined freewheel cassette hubs usually only have 2 dogs for engagement and have split apart on other people, I think I would want to avoid that weak link in the system, sans the expense of some super-duper hub of this type. What I see with this setup is a lot of expense for just a redundancy in parts (3 points of freewheeling when all that will be used is 2)that is toooo expensive, or will fail on me anyway.

The other method looks better to me, but I don't know what hub will have room. This is the type that has freewheel threads on the hub, and a threaded piece of a bottom bracket replacement set can be used as an adapter to piggyback a second free wheel to the first. Where I'm stuck here is, what 135mm freewheel threaded hub will have the space to allow 2 freewheels on the right side. I don't know if I've seen any yet in my searching?!

Like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Dimension-Freewhe ... m_sbs_sg_3

The problems I have with this one is it says it has an aluminum axle and I don't know if it looks like it has enough room on the right side for 2 freewheels? (I should stay away from ALU axles as well, right?)

Oh, and how many spoke holes might be best? (more-better? or is there a reason like; what rim choices might be available to me to use a hub with fewer than "max" spoke count, ie 36H? )

Any suggestions form the experts?

Thanks guys,
Jay

Edit: like this, enough room for 2 FW's? ...even though it's 24inch, assuming it's 135mm: http://www.choppersus.com/store/product ... isc-CP-BK/

...or this? looks like a ton of room on the right side (for 5-7 speed) but no disk brake mount! http://www.amazon.com/Avenir-Joytec-Wei ... B003RLHFG6

[GITech]

Ok, I stayed up till 3am last night looking again at my options

Does anyone think an SRAM x9 rear hub 6 bolt IS 12x135mm 32 hole
will be a good choice? Do you think it has a "strong" cassette carrier dog engagment, etc?

I may have a good deal on one, only within the next 5 hours though!

Also, with that being a cassette type, can ACS crossfire FW's be broached? Is that service still available? LFP, Miles, anyone?

Please, your advice(s) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jay

Note: I've also been looking at this. Which one might be better? http://www.amazon.com/DMR-Revolver-Rear ... B001GSMPCG