The *Genesis* is only the begining...

[Miles]

BIG question: Is this a typo on this website that these guys sell a WI ENO "Deluxe" FW ...w/ "FOUR PAWLS"??? http://harriscyclery.net/product/white- ... el-721.htm

It's probably a mistake, Jay. Unless they've changed recently, they have 3 pawls (or 2 x 3 pawls for the trials version).

It does say 4 pawls for the DOS version (only), here:
http://www.bikeman.com/WIND-FWDOSENO1618.html

[Thud]

-I think I'm going with 5/8" keyed shaft? I can't think of any objection
-What is the smallest #25 motor pinion sprocket you would use for boring to 12mm? 13T
-I've been looking at Ebay for the torque limiters. Very nice! Morse or Dalton recommended? cant go wrong with either
If I get one with a smaller bore than what I need, do you bore out these as well, and add a keyway? prolly not, these are notrmaly heat treated to a grade 8ish hardness...better to buy what you need, or shimm a larger one to fit your shaft
-Thanks for the info on ecrazyman controllers, I'll look into it. What's the best way to find this guy?
if your not inclined to buy in quanity & in Kit form, I have to recomend Lyen's controllers. His priceing is more than fair & he has a quality product (I have 2 of his controllers)
look at the link to the e-crazyman e-bay store below
-You've always paid less for you WI FW? Or you've never had your very own?never had
-On the shock absorbing adapter, I've looked for elastomer's, but I'm not finding anything that turns my light on. How would elastomer's work/fit into a design of something like this? Your thoughts?Custom elasomers can be cast in urathan or silicone in a multitude of durometers...your imagination is your only limitation
-For my 2nd gear dog clutch setup; This, OD= 2-7/64" ( https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp? ... powerTrans ),I hadn't thought or re-purpousing a lovejoy for this app. may be totaly viable and this, from what I have been able to summarize, has a usable dia inside the teeth of 2-3/16" ( http://www.mfgsupply.com/gomini/gominis ... z2186.html )? is that link right? I see a bearing idle sprocket
-One more thing. Do you think an ebay (Morse or Dalton) "225" torque limiter is enough for the spur of the 1st stage? I think, maybe these "225" size TL's are the same as the 6524K12 on: http://www.mcmaster.com/#torque-limiters/=fym0sr ,third one down and can handle ~60ft lbs? ]I think so.

e-crazymans ebay store
http://www.ebay.com/itm/72V-1500W-brush ... 3cbbb4d9e1
there you go bro.

[GITech]

I lost my post, quotes and all! ...Ctrl-A, Ctrl-C, bahhh!

Oh well..it's getting late.

Could you post the link to the sketchup drawing? Very interested in looking more in depth at it.

Keep the pics coming!

Here is my sketchup so far... http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... 0132c6d6b7

Note: You can also just open sketchup and go to the 3D Werehouse from the files menu, from there just search for "Genesis Drive" and download the model directly into sketchup from there.

(man I had all kinds of stuff typed up, but I've got to go to bed now, see you tomorrow)

Edit: I just DL'd my own model...some things you should do to see it the way I do: Choose "Engineering Metric" for your template upon opening sketchup, and choose "Parrallel Projection" in the "Camera" menu.

Pics:

[GITech]

Thud, how bad of an idea is the "#40-16T-BB idler sprocket" for the 2nd gear dog setup?? Can you help with a better?

Here is where I'm at now with sizes of all sprockets in the drawing are accurate for:

20.5" wheel, stock 80-100-130kv at 44.4volts with 5300rpm at the motor...

1st gear; 15:1 reduction=21.62mph
2nd gear: 7.875:1 reduction=41.18mph

I'm probably way off, in fact I am probably not even close...am I? I'm still using that "RC" speed calc...





Thud, I'd ideally like something like this for my 2nd gear. How did this work out for you with the BB's? If you can help me I'd be able to go with #35 on the 2nd gear side too, I think, ya'know..?


Late again...

Later,
Jay

[Thud]

hello J,
The ball bearings are overkill. I ended up with a bronze bushing that is a straight press into a 5/8" bored sprocket.
I also enlogated the engdgment pockets for a little more room.(easyer engadgment)

my math on your gearing is:
corrected for actual KV133 low=24.6 mph
High=46.0 mph

[gensem]

subscribed

[GITech]

Thanks Thud, that's reassuring! The sprocket sizes looked too small to me, so it was hard for me to believe I'm getting so much reduction with what is essentially a 1 stage (1 jackshaft anyway) reduction!!

Do you think I'll be able to find a sprocket with the correct ID and a bushing with the correct OD and a 5/8" ID that can be press fit into the sprocket without modification?

I just got my Torque Limiter in the mail. They sent me a 7/8" ID instead of the 5/8" ID I ordered... Oh well, at least I can model it now that I can take its' measurements before I put it back in the box and send it back.

My new 20" rims and tire (only 1 tire for now as that's all I could afford ATM) should be here too, but didn't arrive today.

Measurements for the rear shock spacing:
Width between the linkages at the top is 48.94mm/1.927"
Bottom at the frame it is 24mm/.946"
Stock shock length eye to eye is 170mm.
Through bolt diameter top and bottom is 7.84mm/.308".

Hi gensem! I'm having a hard time figuring out what the "~ variable" really means for the eye2eye and travel specs on the link to the shock you're ordering? Can you explain? And do these come with spring and "reducers". What is a reducer? Bad translation? Thanks. http://www.yasusu.com/pro_bic02.htm


Here's some real life pics of the new stuff!

Truvative Holzfeller 160mm direct mount stem
FSA V-Drive handle bar
WTB LaserDisk super duty 32H 20mm front hub
Mavic EN 321Disk 26x1" rim
Maxxis Highroller L.U.S.T. 26x2.35" (tubeless)
SRAM X9 32H 135x12mm MTB cassette rear hub









Later,
Jay

[gensem]

It does come with a spring, you can choose all the options while ordering, like ETE, spring lbs, bushing, etc. If you forgive to give any needed measurement they ll contact you by email after payment. I was abit confused at first too.

The travel is related to the ETE, 160mm means 30mm travel and 200mm ll end up giving you 50mm travel.
Stock is 170mm but I think you can fit a 190mm shock on the genesis frame and have 42mm travel.

Regards


Edit: coz my english suck and typed shock instead of spring

[GITech]

That's a really good deal on a shock then gensem!

Anyone have any experience with these shocks? http://www.yasusu.com/pro_bic02.htm

So I modeled up the Morse 250-A Torque Limiter today, threads and all!

Edit: Here's the link for the model: http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/ ... 0132c6d6b7

Note: this "width" assumes a minimum thickness of 41mm if I grind down the excess threads.

[GITech]

I think I found what will work for the 2nd gear as per your advice Thud,

This gear: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?c ... -2413-15-D (maybe one with more teeth would be better to clear the lovejoy OD?)

with this bushing: http://www.belarusagsupply.com/LIFT-ARM ... p_686.html

and engaged with this lovejoy: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?i ... powerTrans

Are these parts something you would be able to work with if you were to do the modding on them?

That bushing will also hopefully allow me to use the 7/8"ID Morse Torque limiter that was sent to me as the wrong size ID, as well? This should make it fit the shaft, but I will probably have to cut a groove out of the bushing and make a custom key tall enough to make it from the keyway in the 5/8" jackshaft to the keyway in the 7/8"ID of the TL. They refunded my money and let me keep it! ..so it turns out I got it and the full "repair kit" I ordered to go with it for FREE! How would you go about making it work, or is 'this' idea sound?

Also, a slight redesign is in order now that I have the TL in sketchup, something more like this:



Later,
Jay

[GITech]

Hi guys,

I am about to order the second tire for my build and 2 tubes.

Can anyone help me with choosing a tube that will be ideal for my application?

The tires are 2.5"x16" Bridgestone TW9 Trail Wing Dual Sport: http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/2/ ... =Cart_Item

The rims are 20"x36mm Alienation Runaway: http://www.ebay.com/itm/280588625991?ss ... 1423.l2649

I see that tubes are sized asymmetrically, ie "2.25/2.50" as seen here: http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/4/ ... =Cart_Item

Sizes in the range that might work are (with TR6 valve stem):
2.00/2.25-16
2.25/2.50-16
2.75/3.00-16 (probably too big)

Thanks,
Jay

BTW: I've got the gears and stuff on order, and farfle will begin my custom swingarm soon!

[Thud]

Hey G,
from a quick glance, I think your 15t sprocket is very tight to make it fit that lovejoy..need to reveiw.
I would vote for the 2.25/2.5 tube with the steel stem.

you were getting one of Farfles extended swing arms?

[GITech]

Hey G,
from a quick glance, I think your 15t sprocket is very tight to make it fit that lovejoy..need to reveiw.
I would vote for the 2.25/2.5 tube with the steel stem.

you were getting one of Farfles extended swing arms?

I ordered an 18t sprocket just to be safe.

Thanks, I think I agree!

Yep, after he's done with the 10 he is working on now. A one off custom like the teal-green in the drawings. Do you have any input here?

When my sprockets get here I'll need some work done like the motor pinion bored to 12mm. Can you do that for me? My motor shaft has a keyway in it (custom), but you can tell me I don't need it if the setscrews will be enough.

[Thud]

I'll pm you a shipping address & open up some drive sprockets to 12mm.
i run a ton of power through dimpled shafts & set screws....but if i had the option for a key...i'd take it.

Making dog pockets is another matter. Its a bunch of work requiring some fixturing & time....which is allways in short supply these days.

[GITech]

Thanks Thud!

I'll have one motor pinion for you to do.

I understand if your too busy. I'd just love for you to be the one to do the job of the dog clutch 'cause your the master!

I'll have these parts to do the job with:

1. https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp? ... m=1-3420-G
2. https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp? ... -2413-18-D

I think, the gear would need dog windows, and the lovejoy would need the ID of the tips of the 'dogs' opened to just larger than 7/8" (and so they will fit into the dog windows created). (?)

I'd do my best to compensate you for your time!

Thanks,
Jay

[GITech]

Ooops, I hit quote instead of edit...

My last post is on the previous page.

[E-racer]

I recommend that you go ahead and build a single stage geared for 35ish mph to get you stared. That alone will be the right amount of learning curve and budget. I think you will have a better appreciation for tackling multiple gear ratios as a second or third iteration build. Most all of use here have built multiple vehicles or iterations of the same vehicle to get where we are now.

[GITech]

I hear ya e-racer! I'm already looking at changes, posibly making parts I already ordered obsolete... I'm sure no matter how much I try do do it all in one build there will be future itterations!

I'm also quite sure one side will be done before the other as each of the 5-6 parts that go on the wheel/hub itself are each more expensive than an entire order of smaller sprockets and stuff for the rest of the transmision from Surplus Center!! Ie; an ENO 22T freewheel and broching it, an adapter for the FW to a large sprocket (preferably an itteration of my "Shock Relief FW adaptor), a Top-Hat, and 2 big custom sprockets. Boy, I have a long way to go..!

Thud, there's a post on the previous page for you too.

If you can't do dog windows, how about instead of putting windows in the 18T, #35, 7/8"ID, type-B spocket... I just use another L-075 lovejoy (with a 7/8"ID for the bushing) and an 18T #35 type-A sprocket bored to 1.75" to fit the lovejoy OD, and weld it to this freewheeling lovejoy?

Could you open an 18T #35 type-A sprocket to 1.75" ID?

Only thing about this idea that concerns me is it may take up more room and I don't have much to spare. With the windows cut right into the face of a type-B sprocket I figured I only would have about 1/8" of space for the lovejoy to clear the sprocket when not engaged. Maybe for this second idea I could get away with welding the type-A sprocket right out on the couplings dogs so that their tips are flush with the face of the sprocket?

Oh, or, instead of buying a type-A sprocket...just boring out the type-B sprocket already ordered to 1.75" if there is enough material on its' hub?

Thanks,
Jay

[Thud]

Could you open an 18T #35 type-A sprocket to 1.75" ID?

Only thing about this idea that concerns me is it may take up more room and I don't have much to spare. With the windows cut right into the face of a type-B sprocket I figured I only would have about 1/8" of space for the lovejoy to clear the sprocket when not engaged. Maybe for this second idea I could get away with welding the type-A sprocket right out on the couplings dogs so that their tips are flush with the face of the sprocket?

Oh, or, instead of buying a type-A sprocket...just boring out the type-B sprocket already ordered to 1.75" if there is enough material on its' hub?

Thanks,
Jay

J,
I actually like this idea. it would be ready made dogs...& simple lathe work....with a stop at the tig welder to lock it all together. I'll see if i get time tonight to make a couple skecthes of the parts & post the senarios up here.
the love joy could be inserted to flush & its ready made pockets without a bunch of fiddling about with a rotary table on my flexy mill.
Backside & overall width of the assembly can be trimed with a cut off operation.
Good out of the box thinking!

[GITech]

Nice! Thanks!

Looking forward to the drawings!

I'm still waiting for my first parts order from surplus center to arrive.

[Thud]

looks like the smallest canidate for a lovejoy dog application will be 21T (2"hub diameter)

looks like this:


bottom is a raw sprocket
(going clockwise)
then its opend to a light press fit of the lovejoy
lovejoy in position
back side look..

Total guess on the all the lovejoy dimensions other than the diameter.

[GITech]

Awesome!

The tooth count doesn't scare me. A spur of 54-58 tooth is still totally fine!

It's yours! Take the idea and run with it Thud!

No need to cut it shorter, having the dogs even with the face of the gear is what was needed. Perfect! I'd bet we've also increased the torque handling of the L075 quite a bit too!

Here's another thought I had; what about using a 5/8 x 7/8 x 1" roller bearing: http://www.vxb.com/Merchant2/merchant.m ... &offset=60

I don't think either of the pics are really for the 1" long version. Anyway, I think the L075 is ~1" long total and this would allow extended support out into the 'unsupported' dog area, directly under the gear mid-line. The only thing is I'm not sure how the rollers would would do over the opening of the keyway, but the bearing won't be under any load when freewheeling, so it might be just fine..?

Would you also like to take a shot at the SRFWA? You can have that too if you make it a reality! I have no machines or real capitol so.. We could explore different ways to design it here in this thread (or through PM if you wanna keep it secret, hehe).

I am making another shopping cart at surpluscenter, I'm thinking I should have it sent directly to you? It would include 3' of 5/8" keyed shafting (you keep the extra), a 7/8"ID L075, a #35 21T type-B sprocket, 13t 14t and 15t motor pinions so I can change my overall gear ratio with one sprocket change. (I also have an order coming to my house I will need to send you some parts from). Addy PM?

Later,
Jay

Edit:

What about this bad boy: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?i ... powerTrans If they will replenish stock..
Or this one, more in stock: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?i ... powerTrans

Cheap and less to machine!!!

[Thud]

is theis the bearing you meant?
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/5-8inch/Kit13982

IIUC the shaft & gears will allways be in rotation...the friction between the 2 will be minimal even with a bronze bushing (WAY les expensive) & the needle rollers will definatly fall out if they encounter the keyway...need one with an inner race included....but they all get into diameter issues when the lovejoys are considdered.

shock relief freewheel adapter...? I have that coverd with shock mounted sprockets. Elastomers my friend castable into any shape you need & any durometer.
I have a photo somewhere of my rubber mounted monster sprocket.....not tough to make just with some rubber hose cut to fit & an apropriate spacer....I'll dig out the picture & add it on the other computer.

you have the PM already.

[GITech]

Awesome, an order is on it's way to you!

Okay, cool on the bearing/bushing thing.

The bushing I ordered is a loose/wobblely fit in the 7/8" TL I've got in hand. ( http://www.belarusagsupply.com/LIFT-ARM ... p_686.html )

It is .6480 ID x .8665 OD. I don't think it's going to work..too loose on ID and OD?

Do you have the bushing aspect covered?

[crossbreak]

Hey GITech!

Thanks for sharing your ideas. I see that we're on a similar topic and late night constructing I did'nt read all of the posts because it's late again.
Your regen config looks indeed very nice. Do you think that a two speed gear will be fine? I planed a three speed, to get a better spread. I planed a spread of1.5*1.5=2.25 with and old fashioned sachs or (on your continent) sturmey archer hubgear. I calculatet that it will last the 5KW @ 1000rpm. What do u think?

Thought this would be right for a motor like this, I also use the 80-100 with 130KV. What do you think about cooling? I saw that you 're also thinking of rewinding and so on. I can recommend you taking the DELTA wireing because you have to change nothing but the end-leads! You can get 75KV this way pretty easy

I subbed. Maybe you should also taske a look at my thread (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34146), but atm I only gain for a 500Watts, but the 80-100 is still alive

this is my three speed sturmey archer hub concept (not final, the motor has to be flipped):





I'm very interested in your build, please keep us up to date with pictures (I love 'em)!