LightingRod kit standard 09/2014 edition

hi..
i'm initiating this build thread to document my efforts to assemble and build LightningRod's standard 09/2014 edition

why am i calling 09/2014? because L-R will slowly be improving the build as he goes and if you read this 10 years from now , a few items or parts might change.

the 'standard' part relates to the fact that currently he offers a kit with 2000 watts continuous usage, (3000 watts peak) and a kit known as "BIG BLOCK" which is known to operate at twice as that.

this is the exploded parts of what he sent, the standard full kit also includes a 148 mm BB ,freewheel, and cyclone crank arms. i will be trying to use thun torque sensor bb with CA instead, and additionally be using the W-I freehwheel on ECOSPEED's crank arms, this is because my initial attempt at threading the freewheel on to the cyclone has resulted in the cyclone's destruction, (but hey, i got those for free), i suspect the threading on the W-I might a little different then the ones on ACS crossfire, i've also ordered another crankarm with a standard freewheel from sickbikeparts and asked they should thread it themselves (just incase)

while it might seem redudent , the first thing you really wanna do upon receiving the package is to test drive the motor BEFORE you assemble on to the kit.

if you ordered from L-R the lyen controller especially modified for his kit, then you should have no problem connecting the motor to controller , just plug in the pahse wires (thick gold bullets ) and hall sensors (5 thin wires) to their counterparts in the controller.

then plugin your choice of throttle to controller, and ONLY then plug in the battery to the controller. (there have been cases where connecting the throttle to controller after it was powered on caused some glitches and motor started running. )

slide in the throttle easily, the motor should run smoothly and quietly like here.
[youtube]thv-LQShUa0[/youtube]

it should NOT sound like this

[youtube]POoMv0Q9TWY[/youtube] , this is what a motor sounds like when it has cracked soon to be broken magnet (as it's owner soon found out) , if you DO hear such a thing, it would be advisable to contact L-R and ask him about it.

if the motor is running and stopping , check all the writings between the components (motor, controller throttle, battery) and try again, if you don't get a smooth silent operation like you see from the first vid, then don't press on.

if you have a 3rd party controller, you need to play the infamous "match your halls and phases "game, there are many many posts about this over here, i'm just too lazy to get you one right now, but please be careful as incorrectly matching the wires may cause damage to the controller AND motor.

Hey - thanks for starting this thread. I don't have the big block kit, but I'll definitely be browsing this - and all the other build threads - after I buy my batteries and CA3 for "how-to" hints.

that long metal bar that's being hold by the 2 screws will be used later to assemble on belt mud guard, the thin spacers that come with these screws shoudl go between the upper sheet and bar. (so what's why there's a space between that bar and the sheet

assemble the upper sheet drive as shown, and apply the 2 sliver screws to the motor, but don't turn them all the way


then insert the large screw on right side on top :


and on the bottom


once everything is in place you can tighten but DON'T over do it or you'll strip the threads on the motor case .

this shoudl be fairly easy, there's only one way to do it, and then screw the bolt with washer to secure it firmly.

push back the jack jack shaft as shown here and place the belt.


now push forward the jack shaft until the belt is streched.
then tighten the 2 bolts here but make sure the upper plate doesn't pop out

i've hit a brick wall i can't seem to shake, and that's twearking issue, whatever i do that thing always gets pushed to the chain side, no matter how hard how tighten stuff (and i've already managed to snap one of the round bolts with the square peg on top (can someone PLEASE tell me what they called/??)

the issue i see now is that i can't tighten the left bolt, there's no way to slip a hex wrench with sufficient freedom of movement i'm gonna try to repalce that with a regular steel button allen bolt with a washer so i can tighten it better from the outside.

the only other solution would be to drill that bolt you see resting there, on the chain side, so it would push back the drive, (the same L-R placed the 2 bolts in the 100mm drive) only in my case it would be the center bolt and a chain side bolt. i'll place a nylock hex in the end of the bolt to give it better stability as in it's begning, other then that i can't do anything else.

I would help in getting it adjusted right, if I lived nearby, sorry to hear no mechanics will help you there. The bike you are using has short threads that only go a short way into the BB shell. Cutting off some of the threads on the ISIS cartridge so it can screw all the way in...or...cutting the BB threads deeper towards the center of the BB shell have both been suggested.

I would suggest that: trying a different bicycle, or cutting the threads deeper are the best two options.

There was no way for Mike to know ahead of time that you were not as mechanically-inclined as a builder needs to be to attempt installing a kit like this (or that local technical help is almost not possible to find there). Even if that had been known...There was no way for you to know ahead of time that the required BB could not screw in all the way with his bike.

Both sides of the crankset cartridge must be able to screw all the way in for the spacers to be able to move it slightly one way or the other, while still having a solid connection

spinningmagnets said:

I would help in getting it adjusted right, if I lived nearby, sorry to hear no mechanics will help you there. The bike you are using has short threads that only go a short way into the BB shell. Cutting off some of the threads on the ISIS cartridge so it can screw all the way in...or...cutting the BB threads deeper towards the center of the BB shell have both been suggested.

I would suggest that: trying a different bicycle, or cutting the threads deeper are the best two options.

There was no way for Mike to know ahead of time that you were not as mechanically-inclined as a builder needs to be to attempt installing a kit like this (or that local technical help is almost not possible to find there). Even if that had been known...There was no way for you to know ahead of time that the required BB could not screw in all the way with his bike.

Both sides of the crankset cartridge must be able to screw all the way in for the spacers to be able to move it slightly one way or the other, while still having a solid connection

Click to expand...

bb issue has been sorted as you can see it now screws all the way inת i paid someone 5$ with a lathe to file it off, now i could order the pedro's wrench and maybe a new bb with new notches and do it all over again, for better tightness



now my problem i snapped one of these things and so far i haven't be able to get a new one i believe it's an M5 80 mm size, and i don't even know what it's called in english, so i can't order it from states even. so it looks like i won't be able to get the kit up in time or at all.

Carriage bolt?

district9prawn said:

Carriage bolt?

Click to expand...

oh so THAT'S what they are called, well it would seem that ones mikes are using are M5 x 80 , and every time i try to ask in israel about such sizes , they either have m6 or larger, and not that length . i may to have the same guy who filed me the bb make me one for 20$, only this one would be steel.

this guy also said he's open requests and questions, i hope he won't regret the day he said that to me cause i'm bringing the entire drive tomorrow, see if he could make something from the twisting, he has workshop and all.

so far the only probable solution i see for twearking stuff is to have a secondary bolt on the chain side to stop the pull , however sadly i don't have another of that plastic thingy he's using, so it would have to rest directly on the motor.

on a side note, i told mike i'm sending his controller back, our custom's "investigators" actually googled the controller (i'm guessing they saw lyen's name on it ) and started asking questions i didn't wanna answer, that's ok, least of my worries now that i have the bmc working with it .

Hi Emaayan-

Thanks for starting a build thread for my kit. Hopefully it will help other owners with assembly while I work on getting my own documentation completed.

I'm trying different combinations of hardware in the lower bracket trying to get it all to work as smoothly and reliably as possible. At first I used allen cap bolts like the motor bolts. Those worked fine except that they were too long and hit the back of the chainwheels and also could not be accessed with an allen wrench once the chainwheels were installed. I next tried carriage head bolts. I was very hopeful for this design because of the low profile domed head and a square shoulder on the back side of the head that registered in the adjuster slot and made a wrench unnecessary on the chainwheel side. The problem with carriage bolts is that in the smaller sizes they are all made from mild steel and have proven too easy for overly enthusiastic bolt tighteners to break. Right now I'm using regular M5 hex head bolts. You can get a wrench in from the side with the chainwheels installed and the head profile is low enough to clear.

I'm not following you on the "tweaking". Are you saying that resistance from the chain pulling back as you tension it is causing the lower slide to not be straight in the motor bracket? That sounds like you may be over tensioning the secondary chain. The chain should not be tight as a bow string. Tighten the chain with the main M6 adjuster bolt (which you've converted from phillips to allen, I may follow your lead on that) until the chain has just a bit of slack in it. You don't want it floppy and you also don't want it rock hard. Over tensioning the chain will not prevent it from loosening. If anything over tensioning will contribute to the chain loosening while riding.

For the slide hardware I recommend that you get the best M5 x 0.8mm x 16mm hex head bolts you can get and use M5 nylock nuts on them for safety. If there is sufficient clearance between the back of the chainwheel and the heads of the hex bolts, add M5 washers to spread the load of the bolt head more evenly over the face of the slide.

I will be redesigning my lower sheets to allow the use of M6 bolts that are available in Grade 8. In addition to being larger diameter the Grade 8 steel M6 bolts are very strong and will allow much higher tightening pressures.

I'm subscribing to your thread and will pop in to offer help. You can also e-mail me for assistance as needed. Thank you for moving your discussion of the details of your build off of my development thread. It's already too hard for people to find the development information that they're looking for.

thanks for responding.

if the backside of the carriage bolt just served as replacement for a wrench holding then i'll replace them, as they represent for me the worst combo of hard to find and easy to brake, not only that, the carriage bolt on the chain side (the shorter on on the picture) has proven to be in-accessible for a wrench to turn so i could never tighten up correctly.

a regular m5 hex head bolt? like this USED to be ? (one of the bolts for the sliders)


as an avid member of the overly enthusiastic bolt tighteners club (we have dental..) i can tell you that continuing to rely on pressure alone on the side plates will cause people to over strip and break whatever you throw after they'll see the amount torque this things gives you , at first they won't use much force, and then they'll it twist and use whatever force is they can muster and then they will brake it.

i believe an alternative should not be a smooth adjuster slot but have it positioned holes with a 2 mm distance between them, at least one or 2 of them should fit the right distance l, while you may not get the shortest distance possible, it think it would be a lot harder to slide. either that or switch to 2 bolts like you did with 100 mm drive.
additionally the plastic on the back drive feels very brittle to me, the washer already came out of it, maybe the fact that i'm using the 18T driver sprocket causes a much greater force then usual.

Yes a 6 sided hex head bolt like that except without the corners rounded off.

The Grade 8 bolts will be good for you. You can have fun breaking your wrenches and sockets instead of hardware.

If you want an absolutely positive fix for the slide loosening while riding, adjust the chain properly and then drill a hole all the way through both side plates at a place where you can put a bolt through and reach the nut on the inside. This won't allow for chain stretch (if that even happens with the kart chain) but it will keep the sheets from loosening.

I will take a look at putting two adjuster bolts on the 68mm adjuster plate. Obviously there isn't as much room as on the 100mm plate. The side plate bolts need to be tightened. Don't rely on the adjuster bolt to hold everything in place. You will break the plastic push block. I use that plastic because it is hard and doesn't soften from the heat of the motor case. The first urethane I used got gooey at normal motor operating temperatures.

I'm going to work on the drawings for the new lower sheets today. I'll post them in my development thread when they're ready for comments. I welcome your feedback. Please be considerate about staying on topic. Thanks.

Carriage bolt

http://www.accuscrews.co.uk/full-thread-carriage-bolts/20199-SECF-M5-80-A4.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwk_OhBRD06abu3qSoxlwSJACt7sZ7DLSeE3Y7ZQ7vK7a9Tha07CRasMvCohw8BbgjBnAe0BoC8SPw_wcB

Cryptic said:

Carriage bolt

http://www.accuscrews.co.uk/full-thread-carriage-bolts/20199-SECF-M5-80-A4.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwk_OhBRD06abu3qSoxlwSJACt7sZ7DLSeE3Y7ZQ7vK7a9Tha07CRasMvCohw8BbgjBnAe0BoC8SPw_wcB

Click to expand...

And also in stainless steel, which you shouldn't be able to snap. Try marine supply places there for them.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M5-M6-M8-COACH-BOLT-CUP-SQUARE-CARRIAGE-BOLTS-SCREWS-A2-STAINLESS-ABOLT-FTB-/111458116034?pt=UK_DIY_Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&var=&hash=item19f36be1c2

I may regret this - if you get real stuck for small stuff like bolts, I can probably help with UK suppliers - but unlike US Postal, the Royal Mail charges a heck of a lot for postage.

thanks, the ebay ones seems to make more sense, hey L-R, are these things stronger then what you have? what's the difference between A2 (ones on eay) , A4 (the ones on accuscrews) and a7 (the ones you have) , and one other thing, when you say "best M5x0.8mm x 16 mm" how exactly do you define "best"? (and then i'll have to figure how to translate THAT correctly)

i've replaced the carriage bolt on the inside with allen bolt, not because of strength but because i could reach it with a wrench



tomorrow i'm gonna go see the guy who did my threads with the entire drive, see what he can do (he also suggested to use bigger bolts but then i'll bigger spacers) , i also wonder if he can deepen the the BBT-018 socket i got (the socket closest to the drive in the picture) , so it would reach the bb all the way.i tried drilling into it hopefully shaving it , but that didn't pan out.

right now the only thing stopping me is the lack of the carriage bolt or whatever that can hold it instead, so i'm willing to pay 10$ for whatever bolt he can make me, or if he has better hex bolts of the same size, as long as i can fully test the kit before my vacation is over. if he can't do that the i'll need to fallback on ebay.

at least bolts wise i don't think i have a problem, i have 2 real shops at tel-aviv (still need a bus ride each time i need one) , and one online, i only had problems obtaining carriage bolts, and like i said, i'll probably have problems defining a "best" bolt unless i'll have a more technical term they'll understand.
obtaining spacers maybe a problem but i havn't check that yet.

the biggest problem is finding a cnc machinist like ya'll seem to have living next door to you who's willing to do make parts or modifications, i may have one in another city , but he has little patience or time for me.

"Best" bolt means with the highest tensile strength. Grade 5 is a good bolt, grade 8 is the best we common folk can buy. I don't know all of the tensile strength ratings of stainless steel. The internet is as close to you as it is to me. I'm pretty sure that grade 8 high carbon steel trumps any kind of stainless.

Don't feel bad about being snubbed by machinists. I come to them with a $1,000 order and they do the same thing to me. Piece by piece I'm buying my own equipment so I don't have to put up with their attitude.

Careful with statements like "you won't break stainless". Stainless is actually not very compelling strength wise in many applications. Try attaching a motorcycle sprocket with stainless bolts some time, it won't end well.

Mixed grade chart

https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/bolt-grade-chart.aspx

Stick with bolts that you can get their grade information on.

SAE bolt grade information

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steel-bolts-sae-grades-d_1426.html

Metric bolt grade information

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steel-bolts-metric-grades-d_1428.html

Unit conversions

http://www.onlineconversion.com

All your hardware needs met here
http://www.mcmaster.com

And you thought no one would come see you on your thread. Provide TV, food and booze and we won't leave.

LightningRods said:

And you thought no one would come see you on your thread. Provide TV, food and booze and we won't leave.

Click to expand...

almost at tears
tv, check, food check, booze, are you kidding me? , i only drink 4 cups a year on pasohver, besides we're dealing with heavy machinery here, jdevo got his skin torn when he was sober (at least i hope he was sober )

thanks 1BFC, i'll keep that in mind, (quickly runs to check his hex bolts, shit!, can't read anything..... something... 8)

1BFC said:

Careful with statements like "you won't break stainless". Stainless is actually not very compelling strength wise in many applications. Try attaching a motorcycle sprocket with stainless bolts some time, it won't end well.

Click to expand...

Fair play - I had a b*tch of a time cutting 316 SS for scuba rig - but then I hadn't got carbon steel to compare with.

Where does titanium fit on the scale? http://www.unitedtitanium.com/carriage-bolts

Israel is a relatively modern country...is there no such thing as a hardware store in that country? Is there no such thing as a bolt and nut store or even a car parts store? Seems so weird that you are having such a hard time sourcing common parts over there.

jdevo2004 said:

Israel is a relatively modern country...is there no such thing as a hardware store in that country? Is there no such thing as a bolt and nut store or even a car parts store? Seems so weird that you are having such a hard time sourcing common parts over there.

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if you are talking about hardware stores that sells hammers , paint,brooms,, nails,pliers etc.. there are about 4 of them walking distance from me, but as soon as you show them the kind of bolts i'm messing with, they'll say it's a "fine engraving" thread wise, and refer me to the specialty stores in tel-aviv (20 minutes bus ride) which sells ONLY bolts.