Bafang, Lighning Rods, or Stokemonkey for Big Dummy?

jtrops

1 W
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
61
I haven't heard back about the lightning rods kit, and to be honest I'd like to get up and running sooner than later. After reading a lot about drives, and batteries, and mid vs. hub I've come down to these options:

1. Stokemonkey, classic version with tandem crank, apparently in the 750w range. New right side drive isn't yet an option on the Dummy.
2. Bafang BBS02 48v/750w
3. Lightning Rods Cargo version w/small block

Between these options which would be your choice? Why?

And of course if there is a different kit that would fit the bill I'd like to hear about it as well.

Thanks,

Jerry
 
Bafang.

The pricepoint is better for the power output. It comes with controller, screen, throttle, etc. You just buy the bafang and the battery and you are done.

The left side Stokemonkey requires that you pedal at ALL times. It requires a more extensive install, and is probably heavier (not sure but I bet it is). If you could get the right-crank version, my opinion might be different, but you can't now...
 
Warren said:
If you can afford it, the classic Stokemonkey for the win! Super dependable, separate controller, all standard bike parts, full gear range for a cargo bike.
I have an Internal geared hub, so the parts would be pretty much the same for either. Is the classic SM more efficient than the Bafang?


Deanwvu said:
Bafang.

The pricepoint is better for the power output. It comes with controller, screen, throttle, etc. You just buy the bafang and the battery and you are done.

The left side Stokemonkey requires that you pedal at ALL times. It requires a more extensive install, and is probably heavier (not sure but I bet it is). If you could get the right-crank version, my opinion might be different, but you can't now...

The SM comes with everything but the battery as well. It has a separate 25w controller, v3 cycle analyst, twist throttle... The cost without battery is $1100 if you add in shipping, and a left side tandem crank arm.

W/36v 15ah Samsung battery from green bike kit the total for the SM would be $1500
W/48v 15ah NiCoMn battery the Bafang would be about $1000, whole kit from green bike kit.

So the Bafang is 1/3 less than the Stokemonkey. Is the Stokemonkey more efficient, reliable, or better in some way that would justify the cost?
 
Warren said:
Running through an IGH does eliminate one advantage of the Stokemonkey. Ultimately, I think the Stokemonkey will last longer, but again YMMV.

As far as having to pedal, I see that as a plus. We are lazy by nature.
I will assume that the missed advantage is using a front derailleur to get a wider gearing; otherwise, I can't think of another reason a Nuvinci would be a problem. I don't mind pedaling, but because of my knee problem I do want to take some of the stress off of my knee. I think either system will allow me to do that.

I just heard back about the Lightning rods kit, and it sounds like it might be ready sooner than later. With that in mind it may end up at the top of the list.

What are peoples experiences with drag from the motor when it isn't being used. What I mean is that if I want to ride the bike in pedal only mode how much will I notice the motor?
 
I would definitely choose to have the option to pedal or not, wether the power goes through the chain or not. You should be able to choose how much work is allocated between your legs and the motor, and be able to instantly adapt to conditions at will for maximum enjoyment and efficiency. :mrgreen:
The drag of my DD motor pedaling without power is considerable for my weak legs and knees, however by lightly applying the throttle, pedaling on the flats up to about as fast as the highest gear will let me is pretty easy. (About 10-12mph) Above that cruising speed, the pedals just spin for show; like if there's a nosey cop watching or to reduce the noise of the freewheel. Or if I want to I can spin the pedals backwards for the fun of it to keep loose in the legs. :lol:
 
The fingers said:
I would definitely choose to have the option to pedal or not, wether the power goes through the chain or not. You should be able to choose how much work is allocated between your legs and the motor, and be able to instantly adapt to conditions at will for maximum enjoyment and efficiency. :mrgreen:
The drag of my DD motor pedaling without power is considerable for my weak legs and knees, however by lightly applying the throttle, pedaling on the flats up to about as fast as the highest gear will let me is pretty easy. (About 10-12mph) Above that cruising speed, the pedals just spin for show; like if there's a nosey cop watching or to reduce the noise of the freewheel. Or if I want to I can spin the pedals backwards for the fun of it to keep loose in the legs. :lol:
Is DD "Direct Drive?" And how is it rigged? Is it a hub, or is it on a jackshaft like the Stokemonkey? I guess one thing that would bump me in the direction of the Stokemonkey is if it had less drag in regular pedaling mode.

As for power difference between legs and motor I don't see that as being a huge concern. If I want more power from the motor I can throttle up, and if I want less throttle down. This is more control than I have over the stoker on my tandem. I'd be lying if I said that the torque sensing of the rightside drive CycleStoker wasn't a cool feature, but it's not the biggest draw for me. Even overall power isn't the biggest feature. What I want is the most efficient system that will toenail into a cargo bike in the cleanest, and simplest way. Efficiency is reallt top, and I think unpowered drag fits into this category. Also, how power hungry the system is. If I can make a decent system that runs off of 36v batteries on the Stokemonkey which is comparable to the output of a 48v Bafang that would seem to be more efficient.

Now I have to consider the LR kit.
 
I will be using a torque sensor with the LR kit to allow me to bike in pedal assist mode. Mike is going to fashion a mounting plate for the BEAMts torque sensor that will work with his Big Dummy kit.

Theoretically, you could use the BEAMts with just about any true mid drive or hub drive, but it would not work with the Bafang or any other bottom bracket drive.
 
Deanwvu said:
I will be using a torque sensor with the LR kit to allow me to bike in pedal assist mode. Mike is going to fashion a mounting plate for the BEAMts torque sensor that will work with his Big Dummy kit.

Theoretically, you could use the BEAMts with just about any true mid drive or hub drive, but it would not work with the Bafang or any other bottom bracket drive.

The torque sensor seems like a really cool feature to add.

I have been in touch with Mike about the LR Cargo kit. I'm certainly interested, but there are a couple of questions you may be able to help clear up:
1, is the ISIS crank the only real option? I only ask because in the normal bike world ISIS was a pretty short lived experiment due to inadequate bearings leading to blown bottom brackets. The splined interface is excellent, but the overall package suffered.
2, If I understand what you said earlier the chainring on the crank goes to the jackshaft, and the final drive goes from the jackshaft to the rear wheel. If this is correct I can see how you would be able to adjust the chainline at the jackshaft for both chains individually, but it would require a fairly wide right side crank spacing. What is the Q-factor, or stance width between pedals, for the LR Kit?
3, is the LR kit overkill? From what I can gather it is the same price as the Stokemonkey, and so it is on the far end of my budget, but not out of the question.

For simplicity it is hard to argue with the SM, and while the Bafang is a more complicated thing, its installation is incredibly simple. The LR is the most complex of these, and justifiably so considering its purpose. So, considering that I'm not interested in developing yet another hobby, but I just want an eCargo bike. how do these kits measure against my needs.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Jerry
 
To the best of my knowledge, as Mike would be the better person to ask. He is pretty good at getting back to people, considering, as I get the impression that he is swamped with emails and PMs, so I try my best to not bug him.


1. With the LR kit, you can use any bottom bracket and crank that you like. You will, be, I think, limited to a single chainring in the front, as you have 2 separate chain runs. I am planning to run with a single chainring up front. If I need more gear range, I will purchase a Patterson or Schlumph drive for the front.

2. As to the Q-factor, I have no idea. I am not sure if Mike knows yet, as he just got the mounting plates in for the BD drive. I assume he is working now (or soon) on installing the drive to my bike. Once that is done, we will know more about the chainline. It all depends on where he puts that jackshaft.

3. "Overkill." Who knows. Depends on your needs. It is overkill for what I will use it for on a daily basis (a commuter). But, I will also be bikepacking with this rig and possibly pulling a gross of 500-600 lbs (tons of camping gear, plus a trailer for my son, using it to haul firewood, etc). Because it is roughly the same pricepoint as the Stokemonkey and vastly more powerful, I think your decision should be between the LR and the Bafang.

Advantages of LR kit over Stokemonkey:

1. ~10x more power, if wanted.
2. Can pedal or not, your choice.
3. Very easy and cheap to change the first drive ratio (easy to adjust that cruising pedal cadence)
4. Should be easy to self-service when needed.

The downsides are, perhaps:

1. It is untested (Stokemonkey has been used for years and is, I think, very reliable).
2. I have no idea what the all-up-weight will be of the LR kit, but it appears heavier than the SM.
3. How waterproof is it? Hard to say (untested), but it is mounted in a spot that is largely protected from rain by the rider, especially if I wear rain gear.
4. Resellable? This drive is ONLY for the Big Dummy. If you decide to sell it later, you have to find a BD owner who wants is, or sell the whole bike. The Bafang is easy to uninstall and sell, and so is the original BB LR kit. The SM will be hard to sell as well, as it is only mountable on a few bikes.
 
Remember what more power gives you, and ask if you need it.

1. Do you have a lot of hills? Moving weight up hills needs power. If your routes are flat, no big deal.
2. Are you loading your bike down? If you are, accelerating that mass needs more power. If you don't mind a long "0-60" time, then you can do just fine with a lower power kit. You also need great brakes (with heavy loads).
3. Top speed. Want to go 40 or 50 mph? Need power to overcome that drag. If you just want to go 20, you don't need that power.

Having more power also gives you a buffer. I highly doubt I will ever push the LR kit to failure (by overheating). If you push a low power motor to its limits regularly, you may fry it, or at least reduce it's life.

If I were building just a commuter, I would've had the Bafang last year and been riding on it already. But, I want that power on hand.
 
Stokemonkey is a robust system with a lot of degrees of freedom in setup. That's both good (for versatility) and bad (for how easy it is to set up poorly).

If you're the kind of person who can install and keep front and rear index shifting working perfectly at all times; if you never drop the chain in the spokes, jam it between frame and freewheel, or dump it off the chainring-- then you're probably the kind of person who can set up a Stokemonkey pretty well. You'll need the same set of skills for either job.

P.S. -
Being able to stuff 10 times more power than Stokemonkey through ordinary bike gears is NOT an advantage. You'll knacker any pedal bike gearing in a hurry that way.
 
Chalo said:
Being able to stuff 10 times more power than Stokemonkey through ordinary bike gears is NOT an advantage. You'll knacker any pedal bike gearing in a hurry that way.


True, 5kw would likely do some damage. Keep in mind there is a huge spectrum of power output between 300w and 5kw. Its nice to be able to push 1kw, or 1.5 when you want it/need it.
 
Deanwvu said:
Remember what more power gives you, and ask if you need it.

1. Do you have a lot of hills? Moving weight up hills needs power. If your routes are flat, no big deal.
2. Are you loading your bike down? If you are, accelerating that mass needs more power. If you don't mind a long "0-60" time, then you can do just fine with a lower power kit. You also need great brakes (with heavy loads).
3. Top speed. Want to go 40 or 50 mph? Need power to overcome that drag. If you just want to go 20, you don't need that power.

Having more power also gives you a buffer. I highly doubt I will ever push the LR kit to failure (by overheating). If you push a low power motor to its limits regularly, you may fry it, or at least reduce it's life.

If I were building just a commuter, I would've had the Bafang last year and been riding on it already. But, I want that power on hand.
Thank you for your help. It has been a lot of reading to get to where i am, and I probably would have bought a Bafang already if I hadn't learned about the LR kit. I'm a tinkerer by nature, and I suspect that this could be a new hobby incubating. At the moment I really don't need a new hobby, and i need to have something to reduce the knee strain so that I can continue to ride my bike which I consider an important quality of life.

1, Where I ride this bike gentle hills for the most part, and pretty flat. There is one significant quarter mile climb of about 5% which I hit on occassion (including a time I hauled 400'lbs of rock up the hill from the landscaping place down the street).
2. I don't like loading too much on the Dummy. After a few 150lb loads I decided that above 100lbs it just gets to whippy, so I usually don't push it too much past 100. That "rock load" I mentioned earlier was on my Bikes At Work trailer. If I was going to load more I would probably get a Yuba Mundo frame.
3, No need to go 40mph. My Dummy is for doing errands, hauling recycling, and moving kids around. 20mph is fine for that.

Thanks again,

Jerry
 
Chalo said:
Stokemonkey is a robust system with a lot of degrees of freedom in setup. That's both good (for versatility) and bad (for how easy it is to set up poorly).

If you're the kind of person who can install and keep front and rear index shifting working perfectly at all times; if you never drop the chain in the spokes, jam it between frame and freewheel, or dump it off the chainring-- then you're probably the kind of person who can set up a Stokemonkey pretty well. You'll need the same set of skills for either job.

P.S. -
Being able to stuff 10 times more power than Stokemonkey through ordinary bike gears is NOT an advantage. You'll knacker any pedal bike gearing in a hurry that way.

I'm a bike mechanic with 30 years of experience. I think I can set up any of these systems.

Do you have personal experience with the Stokemonkey? One question I have about the SM is about the efficiency. From what I understand it is generally considered a 36v system, and yet it is also said to deliver reliable torque for hauling serious loads uphill. So, is it making better use of the power available, or does it draw down the battery really fast? I would love to get a small 10 or 12ah battery and get 30 miles out of a charge. That may be dreaming, but I also plan on pedaling with any system I get (so constant pedaling with the SM is not a problem).
 
I have experience with setting up and servicing Stokemonkey, but not with living with it day to day.

Efficiency-wise, it should be fairly similar to using the same hub motor in a direct drive format. There are more mechanical losses with SM versus DD, but on the other hand if the motor's RPM is well matched to the rider's preferred pedal RPM, then the motor will spend almost all the time in a high efficiency RPM range. The increased average efficiency should offset the increased mechanical friction, but it is dependent on getting the relative speeds to correspond.

If your natural pedal RPM is 80 and the motor free speed results in 100 RPM, then cruising efficiency should be excellent. If your natural pedal RPM is 80 but the motor free speed equals 160 at the pedals, the motor will deliver a lot of power but at the cost of poor average efficiency.
 
Okay, that makes sense. So i really just need to figure out the ideal step down gear from the motor to the timing crank that will put me in my comfortable spinning range.

So, what about torque? Will the bafang be able to supply the torque necessary to pull 350-400lbs of total weight up a short, but steady 5-6% grade? My riding will be mostly on flat and gently rolling terrain.

I really like the way the lightning rods kit is thought out. I just wonder if that much power is really going to be a benefit for me. I read somewhere that the Bafang 750w kit offers a potential 1200w drive. I currently push 240w when i'm working hard, so that sounds like a huge boost.

Back to the question:
Bafang, good enough?
Stokemonkey, worth the extra cost over the Bafang? Is it old school tech, and Lightning Rods is the future?
Lightning Rods, at the same cost (as stokemonkey) is this a better option? Is it worth waiting for considering I could have either of the others within a week or two?
 
Out of the three, and also hubs, I'm convinced I'd go with the LR kit. (check out 'some dirty bikes') http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68182&p=1051550&hilit=some+dirty+bikes#p1051550

I don't see any downside if you don't end up using all the power. But it depends on what you're expecting and used to on other two wheel motor machines. I wanted some kick, not just some help. If I did an LR, I'd be tempted to run 3kw like those guys are.

Efficiency differences pretty negligible between like powered and geared systems.
More power= less distance on the same eneregy in general, although the ca or control used to limit current can help overcome this.

my 2cents:
If you can get the bafang quicker, don't want to wait, and don't want so much power right away, get the bafang. Less money and a good system. It just may take a lower gear and speed to climb the steeper stuff.
 
FWIW, I considered all three of these for a Big Dummy. I ended up not going with the SM as I was interested in the torque sensing right side version (Cycle Stoker) which is only available at the moment for edgerunners and yuba mundos. The LR kit didn't work out timing wise. I didn't like the ride of the Bafang as it didn't have a torque sensor and I didn't like the idea of only having a single front chainring (I live in Seattle). I ended up going with an eZee hub motor with a Thun torque sensor bottom bracket and 36V 16.5Ah battery and a cycle analyst V3. The Thun ended up being a really easy install on the Big Dummy as all I had to do was enlarge the cable guide bolt already there. A few observations:
- No problem getting up a 3 block 15% grade to our home every day with 150+lbs of kids/cargo and I go plenty fast for my liking
- Because it is a geared hub motor there is no drag when pedaling which I really like and I can keep a triple front chainring which proved very useful when my battery died at the bottom of the hill home!
- I have a CA3 which opens up lots of possibilities for tinkering
- the torque sensor is fantastic for varying motor output with effort. you set it and forget it. I think it is also a good way to conserve on battery - on a full charge I can get a good 60 miles with pedaling.
- there is a bit of a lag on pedal initiation but I think this might be inevitable with any pedal assist.
 
green79:

I'm interested in your input, and like you I was interested in the right side version. I emailed Justin, and he said that the Cycle Stoker won't be a wholesale change from the Stokemonkey, but just a few different parts. With that in mind I could switch to the new version when it becomes available.

The LR kit seems very nice. I may send Mike an email to find out what the expected delivery schedule may be before I completely nix the idea.

So, what were your thoughts on the Bafang? It looks like you went another way, so it must not have been what you were looking for. Was it the single chainwheel? If so, that's not an issue for me since I've been running a single chainwheel for a few years on this bike already. A hub motor isn't in the cards for this bike. I have a dynohub in the front, and a Nuvinci in back, so the only place left to put a motor is somewhere in between :wink:

About the PAS. I understand that the Bafang doesn't have a torque sensor, and that it doesn't even work with one. It supposedly has a speed sensor of sorts that is apparently much like what is available on most commercially available ebikes. I have ridden a few different ebikes with PAS and from my limited experience it seems passable. What are your thoughts on this?

I rode a crank drive bike today without power to see what the drag on the cranks would feel like, and to be honest it was fine. When I paid very close attention turning the cranks by hand I with the rear wheel off the ground I could feel a little resistance, but when riding it was unnoticeable.
 
The single chainwheel was a consideration but the thing I most like about the torque sensor living in Seattle is that I don't have to worry about shifting the assist level depending on the grade that I'm riding on and effort I'm exerting. Little/no assist on the flat/downhill if I'm soft pedaling and when there is a steep uphill or I want to go faster on the flat the motor gives a boost proportional to how much effort I'm exerting. I only test rode the Bafang but I did find that I was adjusting the assist level more than I liked. As someone who views the motor as just an assist for hills/heavy loads, the torque sensor helps to replicate that "just pedaling" feel. The way I have it setup it makes it feel like I'm riding a light road bike instead of a heavy cargo bike.

I hear you on a mid drive being your only option. I have a dynohub and almost went IGH in the rear. One thing you might want to consider is selling the dynohub and going with ebike lights instead. As I understand there is not much advantage to a dynohub when you have a big battery on your bike already. ebikes.ca have some nice ones and I think B&M make ebike lights if you want to go with something similar to patterned beam dyno lights.
 
green79:
Did you test a Bafang on a cargo bike? Was it the 750w version? I here what you are saying about the PAS, and I can't say if that would bother me or not. I guess I imagined that once I found the level that worked for my needs I would be able to leave it be. The two ebikes we have had in our house had throttle only, and that was my first impression of what I would have. In that way the Stokemonkey is about where my mind was.

To be honest, I never considered getting rid of the Dynohub. I like never having to worry about my headlight working. On winter mornings when it's -10F and dark it's the last thing I want to think about as I get ready for my commute. If I didn't have power to my motor for some reason I could still ride to work, but not if I don't have light.

The more I think about it the Bafang seems like a good, if not the best option. Here are my thoughts:
1, Super easy installation, pretty much plug'n play. I have the requisite 50mm chainline already, and I'm running a single chainwheel in the front.
2. It will be mostly to take the pressure off of my knee, and for the most part on hills. it is fairly flat here, so that's not much.
3. As was pointed out by another forum member in a PM, the Bafang is the only one out of the lot that isn't Big Dummy specific. With that in mind it could be sold used much more easily than the others.
4. small form factor, and quiet to run. I know, why care on a cargo bike? I just like it to maintain it's normal bike appeal if possible. Plenty of places to hide the battery.

The downsides:
1, Possibly not enough power for a cargo bike (less of a concern, but still there)
2, Durability/reliability: not a huge concern, but should it be?
3, Sourcing, and Warranty Greenbikekit seems to get good reviews, Em3V gets better reviews. Both in China. Do either warranty defective parts/assembly? What time frame is on order when a warranty claim comes up? I would like a local source, but it's not the end of the world.
 
I have a Yuba Mundo with a 750w BBS02. It has no problem pulling me and my daughter or any cargo that I've hauled. I highly recommend the BBS02/cargo bike combo. It's an incredibly fun ride.
Here's my build thread.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=68757
 
gtiowa said:
I have a Yuba Mundo with a 750w BBS02. It has no problem pulling me and my daughter or any cargo that I've hauled. I highly recommend the BBS02/cargo bike combo. It's an incredibly fun ride.
Here's my build thread.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=68757

Your Yuba is an awesome machine!

Thanks for chiming in, I think i'll go ahead with the Bafang. It looks like the smallest stock ring is 44t, which will roughly be the same gear inch as i'm running now if i change the rear freewheel to a 20t. What is your lowest gear inch?

I saw a Yuba on the Ichibikes site, and they said it had blown through two Nuvinci hubs, and now was rockin a Rohloff. I'm not worried about my hub because i think that must have been the newer n360, if you know better please correct me if i'm wrong.
 
Back
Top