Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Discussions related to motors other than hub motors.
This includes R/C motors, botttom bracket, roller and geared drives.
Post Reply
wanderer
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 9
Joined: Feb 09, 2016 1:14 pm

Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by wanderer » Feb 27, 2016 8:11 pm

Hi I went tot he e bike expo in san diego today what a Balst!! got to ride a bunch of haibikes,, powered by bosch 350 some of the curries , I zip fullssupension and the evo jumpers The bulls
One Thing I noticed is that all of these were powered with bosh or yamaha except the currie and the bulls. they were fun but it was flat ground and you could feel it but i didn't ever feel like I was overwhelmed . All those years of racing desert on my big monster ATK 604 ( rip your arms out of the sockets).. But I babble, here are my questions:

On most of the bikes the mode was always pedal assisted, in other words you peddled and it provides more power. On the I zip I think it had a separate throttle that could be engaged when the pedal assist was off.

1. Can the Bafang be set up in the same manner?

2. Does 1000 watts actually equate to 3 x the power of the 350 bosch motors and is that what it feels like under full assist?

3 With that much power do you need special beefier gears? or is that an issue at all?

4>. Can the Bafang be set up with 2 front sprockets?

sather
100 W
100 W
Posts: 206
Joined: Nov 09, 2014 5:00 pm

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by sather » Feb 28, 2016 7:56 pm

1. The Bafang HD comes with 5 levels of pedal assist with thumb throttle override when you need it. The Bafang pedal assist is not a torque sensing type and therefore not as seamless and nice as the Bosch system. But it is adequate and usable. I have not ridden the Yamaha.

2. The Bafang HD has many times the power of the Bosch especially with a 14s 52volt battery. It is night and day. My fat bike will easily go 35 mph on the flat and still climb trails so steep the bike wants to come over on you.

3. The jury is still out on gear and chain reliability with the Bafang HD. So far, so good. I never shift under power and don't start from a standstill in the smaller cogs (11-13 tooth). For reference: I also have a 3000 watt Lightning Rods mid drive and I break a SRAM 10 speed chain about once a month and eats up 11 tooth and 13 tooth cogs.

4. No, the Bafang cannot use 2 front sprockets.

I rode the Felt Labowske and it is a fantastic bike, but not worth $5,500. You can build a Motobecane, Bafang HD with twice the battery (20 amp hours) for less than half the price of the Labowske.

Quotes from article on the Bosch at electric-fatbike.com:
"The Bosch battery system has a built in controller that will only talk to a Bosch drive system. You will never be able to use their battery on any other ebike or motor. If the battery temp drops under 32 degrees of over 140 degrees F it will automagically shut off to protect the cells."
" The (Bosch) 400 Performance Frame battery pack – 36v 11Ah 400Wh 2.5kg is $956.90 retail"

wanderer
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 9
Joined: Feb 09, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by wanderer » Feb 28, 2016 8:54 pm

That is where I am heading with this I am going to build my old Gt Lts with the bafang 1000 w and the either a 48 or 52 any help you can provide insight into what works what breaks is appreciated.

emotate
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Jul 15, 2015 11:10 pm
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by emotate » Feb 29, 2016 12:11 am

Yes, the BBSHD really is at least 3 times the torque, power and speed of the Bosch and Yamaha drives. I have ridden both. Bosch and Yamaha feel almost the same but the Yamaha is way cheaper. If you get the programming cable you can set up the controller on the BBSHD to have PAS with throttle override on all levels. I can kind of understand Bosch and Yamaha drives with just PAS and no throttle on a commuter but not a mountain or fat bike. I took a couple Felt fat bikes with Bosch drives ice fishing a about a month ago. We had a blast in about a foot of snow on the trails and lake. However, when I got off in a snow bank, I could have really used a throttle to get out of it. I had to drag it out with no help from the motor as it was just not possible to pedal out of a 3-6 foot snow bank. I have had similar circumstances happen single track or off trail on an MTB. Check out this recent conversion. Goes 35mph on the stock 46t chainring and climbs 30+ degree single track without getting hot.
Luna Prophet 2w.jpg
Luna Prophet 2w.jpg (119.73 KiB) Viewed 1110 times
Luna Prophetw.jpg
Luna Prophetw.jpg (124.13 KiB) Viewed 1110 times

twist
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 16
Joined: Feb 11, 2016 8:11 am
Location: Spain

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by twist » Mar 02, 2016 8:31 am

I'm German and the Bosch System (Designed in Germany) is a great system but I would still go with the Bafang! In the end I also bought the Bafang BBSHD because you have just way more power and options then with the Bosch System. If you go with Bosch you are stuck with Bosch (kind of).

Pro for Bafang to Bosch System ...

... more power
... takes any battery
... you can programm the controller
... cheaper replacement parts
... more 3rd party parts
... cheaper also to buy

You can also chose a display you like :) ... and mine has then 9 levels of pedal assist

WoodlandHills
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 744
Joined: Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm
Location: Templeton Gap, CA

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 02, 2016 1:26 pm

A couple of small corrections: the Bafang can have up to 9 PAS levels, but in all cases the lowest setting is number 1 and the highest is number 9. This can be changed in the second programming menu on the display w/o a PC or programming cable. Do a search and see the online manual of your display for instructions on how to access the display menu programming levels.

The PAS is actually an auto throttle or cruise control. It does not sense rider input nor does it measure cadence, it simply gets turned on by moving the pedals, at any cadence, with or without applying pressure to the crank. There is a maximum motor RPM as well as a % of voltage for each PAS setting and this can be changed with a PC and programming cable. There are also a host of other variables that can be modified as well. For more detail go to electric-fatbike.com: there is a great technical section on programming the BBSHD.

2old
10 kW
10 kW
Posts: 774
Joined: Jul 19, 2014 3:20 pm
Location: Socal

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by 2old » Mar 03, 2016 10:20 am

Went to the expo and had a blast too. Plus own BBS02 and had the opportunity to ride an XDURO (Bosch) hardtail for three weeks. Few points:
1) The Bosch 350 systems are Class 1 for CA; they can be ridden legally anywhere a bike is allowed (private property excepted) AFAIK.
2) FOR ME, the Bosch system delivers power more successfully than the BBS02 (I'm guessing it's the torque sensor) and I can crawl up technical ascents better.
3) QUALITATIVELY, the Bosch seems to sip power more efficiently than the BBS02 (I realize you're getting a lot less power).
4) One of the best aspects of the Bosch was that the mode could be changed rapidly if one encountered a situation that was more difficult than anticipated.
5) Not associated with any of these companies in any way.
6) My wife was able to ride the Haibike up an 8 mile, 4000' (sport & turbo mode) ascent with 40% battery remaining; no assist downhill, so 16 miles.

garrickk
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 8
Joined: Mar 11, 2015 4:31 pm

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by garrickk » Mar 03, 2016 11:26 pm

The Specialized motor in the Turbo Levo series looks to be impressive as well. 550W and 90nM of torque, vs 60nM in the original Bosch, and 75nM in the newer CX models.

I have a BBS02 750W that I like, and the power is great, and it's smooth, but I don't find the bike fun to ride. I want the seamless, "bike like" power of a Bosch or Yamaha.

I rode a Yamaha motor, but only on flat ground. Seemed great. I've just ordered a 2016 Haibike Xduro Hardseven. Can't wait.

BTW, "Electrib Bike Action Magazine" for April just came out, and they compare similar 2016 Haibike Xduro (Bosch) and Sduro (Yamaha) Hardnine bikes.

Seems the Yamaha is smoother, and actually "climbs better," but they felt the Bosch had more power over a wider cadence. But the Yamaha was a 20 gear bike (2x10) while the Bosch was 1x11. Maybe they just tuned it to turn down power out of efficient cadence bands. They gave the nod to the Bosch system, but the article reads like the Yamaha is better.

1boris
1 W
1 W
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec 06, 2013 3:46 pm

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by 1boris » Mar 04, 2016 9:52 pm

The new Bosch cx (75nm) climbs better than the yamaha at any cadence.Very powerful.The comparison must have been between bosch performance(60nm) vs yamaha (70nm)

garrickk
100 µW
100 µW
Posts: 8
Joined: Mar 11, 2015 4:31 pm

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by garrickk » Mar 08, 2016 3:38 pm

1boris wrote:The new Bosch cx (75nm) climbs better than the yamaha at any cadence.Very powerful.The comparison must have been between bosch performance(60nm) vs yamaha (70nm)
The article is certainly with 2016 Xduro and Sduro models, so a CX motor with 75nm of torque. The pictures are very clear, it's the new motor and mounting. They look great, and you can see the exact models on Haibike's website.

They make the Yamaha sound just smoother, and at 70nm of torque and a wider gear ratio to work with, maybe it feels like it climbs better. But they do note that it looses strength when not in a more ideal cadence, so shift.

1boris
1 W
1 W
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec 06, 2013 3:46 pm

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by 1boris » Mar 08, 2016 9:43 pm

[youtube][/youtube]
garrickk wrote:
1boris wrote:The new Bosch cx (75nm) climbs better than the yamaha at any cadence.Very powerful.The comparison must have been between bosch performance(60nm) vs yamaha (70nm)
The article is certainly with 2016 Xduro and Sduro models, so a CX motor with 75nm of torque. The pictures are very clear, it's the new motor and mounting. They look great, and you can see the exact models on Haibike's website.

They make the Yamaha sound just smoother, and at 70nm of torque and a wider gear ratio to work with, maybe it feels like it climbs better. But they do note that it looses strength when not in a more ideal cadence, so shift.
What article?
It has to be the older Bosch performance in the test you mention. The bosch performance 60nm was similar to the yamaha 70nm in power.The Bosch CX have 20% more torque and it is significant.I have tried both.You should have a look on theese tests

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vCNW2z2-p8[youtube]

http://www.pedelec-biker.com/2015/12/bo ... en_23.html

http://www.pedelec-biker.com/2016/03/bo ... ekten.html

o00scorpion00o
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1663
Joined: Jun 13, 2010 6:47 am
Location: Kildare, Ireland

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by o00scorpion00o » Mar 21, 2016 3:28 pm

Bosh are limited by ridiculously low E.U power limits of 250 watts so they can only get so much torque, however they use tricks to fool testing equipment by delaying full power ramp up so they get away with 500 watts and about 750 peak.

I have the 2013 Bosch on a Haibike Trekking. And it's certainly powerful enough to get me up 20-24%. Not as powerful as the Bafang 100W obviously but the Idea with the Bosch is that it's for assistance and you do the rest and it is certainly a very well designed system, the pedelec software is fantastic.

The current version Bosch motors are more powerful.

If you like to cycle and put in effort but need that extra assistance for hilly areas then the Bosch will not disappoint it's more than powerful enough.
Haibike EQ Trekking, powered by Bosch.

Nissan Leaf Top Spec, 6.6 kw charger.

User avatar
Bicycle365
1 mW
1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Mar 16, 2016 12:17 am
Location: Northeast Corner United States
Contact:

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by Bicycle365 » Apr 10, 2016 10:12 am

o00scorpion00o wrote:Bosh are limited by ridiculously low E.U power limits of 250 watts so they can only get so much torque, however they use tricks to fool testing equipment by delaying full power ramp up so they get away with 500 watts and about 750 peak.....
I did'nt realize Bosch was owned by Volkswagon? :mrgreen:
Look at your join date and your # of posts. If >1 per day, please read more and type less. We will both be smarter for it.

o00scorpion00o
1 MW
1 MW
Posts: 1663
Joined: Jun 13, 2010 6:47 am
Location: Kildare, Ireland

Re: Bafang 1000w v Bosch and Yamaha

Post by o00scorpion00o » Apr 10, 2016 2:50 pm

Bicycle365 wrote:
o00scorpion00o wrote:Bosh are limited by ridiculously low E.U power limits of 250 watts so they can only get so much torque, however they use tricks to fool testing equipment by delaying full power ramp up so they get away with 500 watts and about 750 peak.....
I did'nt realize Bosch was owned by Volkswagon? :mrgreen:

Lol, wasn't it Bosch who supplied the firmware ?
Haibike EQ Trekking, powered by Bosch.

Nissan Leaf Top Spec, 6.6 kw charger.

Post Reply