Cyclone motor problems

K

k-harvey

100 W
Joined
Aug 5, 2011
Messages
269
Location
New Zealand
I have 960w 36v ext controller cyclone motor .(LifePo4 battery)Motor goes but after a short time with motor under load stops. Will not start again for a period but with disconnecting battery will spark & start again.Voltage does not drop below 34v so its not LVC. With shorting out BMS does the same & still not below 34V. Have replaced controller & in talking to Br Paco he says its motor ---but motor was near new & has never been used much at all . Its near a year ago that I talked to him & I don;t think a motor malfunctions being so new & not with use. I have friends who might be capable of its repair but knowing approximately what wrong with it could be a help or I buy another motor .
 
It sounds like the BMS is cutting power because a bad cell or cell group has hit minimum voltage.
 
most of the time thats the internal internal temperature cut off if its not getting hot and cutting out early you can bypass the temperature cut out by joining the purple and blue wire that go to the motor ( they are part of the thin wires and are basically just a loop with a thermal switch )
 
Mighty thanks -----In looking at old e mails to Br Paco with lead acid batteries I had the same symptoms, (but not sure they were new battery so LVC would still turn off) This could be it. You''l here me cheer from way down here in NZ if it is.

I joined the 2 together, put motor under load until BMS cut out (ie. lights went out) Then put motor under load with not joined seemed to go OK. I know if I loaded BMS it would turn off again .
I will leave these 2 wires so as I can join them on the road . Will let you know how it goes. This motor has caused so much trouble its finding what is causing it.
Will try a hill----real close to home.
 
k-harvey said:
Mighty thanks -----In looking at old e mails to Br Paco with lead acid batteries I had the same symptoms, (but not sure they were new battery so LVC would still turn off) This could be it. You''l here me cheer from way down here in NZ if it is.

I joined the 2 together, put motor under load until BMS cut out (ie. lights went out) Then put motor under load with not joined seemed to go OK. I know if I loaded BMS it would turn off again .
I will leave these 2 wires so as I can join them on the road . Will let you know how it goes. This motor has caused so much trouble its finding what is causing it.
Will try a hill----real close to home.
Click to expand...

just keep an eye on motor temps and you will be fine best bet would be to replace the temperature sensor if this fix works
 
well on the hill motor cut out , lights went out so its battery , shorted out bms then still it happened . I think i've had the 2 problems at once cells breaking down & that heat switch so i'll get 3 12v sla batteries yes with them. If the hill had a cliff I'd thrown it over.---Thnks again.
 
well on the hill motor cut out , lights went out so its battery , shorted out bms then still it happened . I think i've had the 2 problems at once cells breaking down & that heat switch so i'll get 3 12v sla batteries yes with them. If the hill had a cliff I'd thrown it over.---Thnks again.
 
k-harvey said:
well on the hill motor cut out , lights went out so its battery , shorted out bms then still it happened . I think i've had the 2 problems at once cells breaking down & that heat switch so i'll get 3 12v sla batteries yes with them. If the hill had a cliff I'd thrown it over.---Thnks again.
Click to expand...

just be sure to keep an eye on temps so you dont burn the motor out worst case you can rewind it or get someone like me to do it for you
 
Where are you Zack as i thought rewinding would cost more than new. I am NZ . I did fit & sell cyclone for a while as hobby when they were the only mid drive even gave away 3 motors to 2 guys who eventually made a brush less controller for one ,took years. Br paco offered me motor for 100usd ----think i'd like Ba fang but they need more than 36v for real hilly as we are. I have 24v cyclone as most reliable.
 
k-harvey said:
Where are you Zack as i thought rewinding would cost more than new. I am NZ . I did fit & sell cyclone for a while as hobby when they were the only mid drive even gave away 3 motors to 2 guys who eventually made a brush less controller for one ,took years. Br paco offered me motor for 100usd ----think i'd like Ba fang but they need more than 36v for real hilly as we are. I have 24v cyclone as most reliable.
Click to expand...

i am uk based cost for a rewind is £30 for parts +£10 /h for my time my personal rewind has 33% more copper fill than standard cyclone motors and has no issues with 2600w offroad i know the motors are cheap but its well worth it ( also worth doing all 7 bearings at the same time cost is around £70 in parts takes about 1h

its always faster to rewind new motors as they have no corrosion and water damage to rewind the motor and swap the bearings to ceramics for the motor hybred ceramics for the gears and better metal ones on the output shaft costs £100 in parts and £100 or less in labour ( can be anywhere from 5h to 10h depending on how lucky you are with the factory construction but all time is logged and accounted for ) i know the costs are high but what you have to realize is that you get more power handling more tork higher efficiency and it will last much longer than standard its worth noting that the temp sensor will no longer fit in the standard location and has to be moved so it may not be as good as standard ( i can give a good estimate on time soon as i look inside and see how bad the plastics are and how corroded the caseing is )

once i get the money together i will buy a couple motors rewind them and post them for sale up on this forum
 
£30 for parts +£10 /h

how many hours would it take to rewind ? as someone mentioned above it probably cheaper to just get a new motor. i think paco sells a new motor for external controller for like 80 usd ? so i dont think anyone will pay more than that for a rewind of a blown old motor as a new motor also comes with new bearings etc and more important a new unworn rotor gear. which as it wears makes the motor noisy. so if the price is half a new motor 40 usd to rewind people may go for it vs just getting a new motor instead. Also bad idea to remove the temp switch as that protects the motor. can you put it somewhere else on the windings ?
 
Alex07 said:
£30 for parts +£10 /h

how many hours would it take to rewind ? as someone mentioned above it probably cheaper to just get a new motor. i think paco sells a new motor for external controller for like 80 usd ? so i dont think anyone will pay more than that for a rewind of a blown old motor as a new motor also comes with new bearings etc and more important a new unworn rotor gear. which as it wears makes the motor noisy. so if the price is half a new motor 40 usd to rewind people may go for it vs just getting a new motor instead. Also bad idea to remove the temp switch as that protects the motor. can you put it somewhere else on the windings ?
Click to expand...

most people that push higher phase amps will know they need to install a new temperature sensor ( the cyclone one is not very good anyway )

As i have mentioned in my last post rewinding improves so much its like having totally different motor the standard wire wind sucks the standard bearings suck if people are happy with that then buy a new motor if they want one thats way better then get it rewound and have all the bearings changed to way better ones ( standard motors run over 36v 960w over heat have a bad kv and the gears get worn quick because the standard bearings suck ) if you want to run higher voltages improve efficiency and have it last longer its worth it if you stick to 250w 15.5mph its probably not worth it unless you want to lower the wh/ mile
 
so if the price is half a new motor 40 usd to rewind people may go for it vs just getting a new motor instead. Also bad idea to remove the temp switch as that protects the motor. can you put it somewhere else on the windings ?
Click to expand...

Yeah i agree with others would pay up to 40 USD to rewind an old motor but rather than take the risk it will fail without warranty i would just buy a new one for 80 USD as that has a warranty from paco or another option if you can supply brand new motor with rewind from new then yeah 130 USD is reasonable to spend so much on the rewind as i know the motor will last and in that case i suppose you would also provide a warranty ?

otherwise again not sure if any people would take the risk the motor was not wound properly and fails early or the bearings are shot or the shaft is worn.... a lot of things can go wrong on an old brush less motor so most people wont want to throw a lot of $$$ at it ???
 
jk1 said:
so if the price is half a new motor 40 usd to rewind people may go for it vs just getting a new motor instead. Also bad idea to remove the temp switch as that protects the motor. can you put it somewhere else on the windings ?
Click to expand...

Yeah i agree with others would pay up to 40 USD to rewind an old motor but rather than take the risk it will fail without warranty i would just buy a new one for 80 USD as that has a warranty from paco or another option if you can supply brand new motor with rewind from new then yeah 130 USD is reasonable to spend so much on the rewind as i know the motor will last and in that case i suppose you would also provide a warranty ?

otherwise again not sure if any people would take the risk the motor was not wound properly and fails early or the bearings are shot or the shaft is worn.... a lot of things can go wrong on an old brush less motor so most people wont want to throw a lot of $$$ at it ???
Click to expand...


i just wind motors in my free time it makes no difference to me if people want it or not i provide a warranty that covers defects in my work if someone melts it putting 200 phase amps threw it thats not my problem
have a look at the cost of aft upgrades they are way more expensive
at some point i will put up a comparison video of a bike with a standard motor and one thats rewound
 
i just wind motors in my free time it makes no difference to me if people want it or not i provide a warranty that covers defects in my work if someone melts it putting 200 phase amps threw it thats not my problem
have a look at the cost of aft upgrades they are way more expensive
Click to expand...

Dude thats just asking for trouble removeing the temp cutout switch. and running more power than stock and not provideing a warranty on the motor ? nice little earnerfor you if people comeing back for rewinds hey ? but not so for us who have to pay so no way more than 40 usd just for rewinds with no warranty. but thats also probably why some of the others are more expensive as they warranty the whole thing and in that case temp switch is cheap insurance for everyone ..thats why warranties exist so its in everyones interest to not fail...
 
Alex07 said:
i just wind motors in my free time it makes no difference to me if people want it or not i provide a warranty that covers defects in my work if someone melts it putting 200 phase amps threw it thats not my problem
have a look at the cost of aft upgrades they are way more expensive
Click to expand...

Dude thats just asking for trouble removeing the temp cutout switch. and running more power than stock and not provideing a warranty on the motor ? nice little earnerfor you if people comeing back for rewinds hey ? but not so for us who have to pay so no way more than 40 usd just for rewinds with no warranty. but thats also probably why some of the others are more expensive as they warranty the whole thing and in that case temp switch is cheap insurance for everyone ..thats why warranties exist so its in everyones interest to not fail...
Click to expand...

i am not sure what the hate is about really as you just quoted i cover all defects in my work i cant offer more than that because the rest of the parts are factory from cyclone and it would be foolish take responsibility for something i have little control over if i was selling kits then they would have 1 year warranty

if someone wants a temp probe thats cool with me you do know the reason the standard temperature sensors fail all the time right ? well its inline with the key switch wire and sees the whole pack voltage but because the motors are only really 24v they use a low voltage capacitor in the circuit and they get fried by the 48v and up setups causing issues and tripping way early i can fix that but its time and money
 
Hi good helping guys ----I have recently received the 3 sla batteries put together to 36 v and tested the bike , with brake as the load test seemed to go ok then roughly fitted them to bike for test ,, she kept stopping once any load was applied ,,, Joined the 2 thermmal wires together to isolate that still the same .. bought bike home and tested voltage under the load with brake & found volts went down to 30.4 v then it cut out ,,, these batteries are near new , hardly used but I think my problem is the LVC & the cells breaking down . I think Br paco has said (will now check) the LVC was about 31v . .I had this problem with other 24v controller bike & bought controller from Edward Lyen tuned for a lower voltage. (batteries very old) Seems same problem only theyre not old batteries even the sla 's. Will ask br b paco about Kelly controller but I'd hate to buy again for stuffed motor. I;l get another voltage meter first.
 
k-harvey said:
Hi good helping guys ----I have recently received the 3 sla batteries put together to 36 v and tested the bike , with brake as the load test seemed to go ok then roughly fitted them to bike for test ,, she kept stopping once any load was applied ,,, Joined the 2 thermmal wires together to isolate that still the same .. bought bike home and tested voltage under the load with brake & found volts went down to 30.4 v then it cut out ,,, these batteries are near new , hardly used but I think my problem is the LVC & the cells breaking down . I think Br paco has said (will now check) the LVC was about 31v . .I had this problem with other 24v controller bike & bought controller from Edward Lyen tuned for a lower voltage. (batteries very old) Seems same problem only theyre not old batteries even the sla 's. Will ask br b paco about Kelly controller but I'd hate to buy again for stuffed motor. I;l get another voltage meter first.
Click to expand...

get something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/36v-48v-60v-72v-40Ah-BT-PROGRAMMABLE-E-BIKE-BRUSHLESS-ELECTRIC-MOTOR-CONTROLLER/162551513489?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

i have had no issues even with 3kw at 72v

but to be honest you will kill those battery's fast and they are heavy
 
Thanks all ,,, & that e bay controller will be last resort with its cost hoping he could describe how to wire to cyclone s complex wires. I've now proved it was the cells to the 36v battery breaking down as well as the controllers LVC . Even thrashing 4 SLA batteries as 48v they would go down to 30amps that the LVC cut out on . Br Paco is sending another of these controllers The LVC on these cyclone controllers is too high the same I had years ago with there 24v ex controller one & got Edward Lyens help for his controller which fixed that. Obviously only good for a new battery . Kelly controllers not sold by cyclone now but Kelly suplier say they can suply one programed etc that being my next to go to if 48v new battery doesnt work . The 36v one with bad cells was a cheapo & way too heavy anyway (flat cell type `30ah)could replace cells which has worked before but new with old didn't work one time & wasted money on the new cells . Thanks All..
 
zackclark70 said:
Alex07 said:
£30 for parts +£10 /h

how many hours would it take to rewind ? as someone mentioned above it probably cheaper to just get a new motor. i think paco sells a new motor for external controller for like 80 usd ? so i dont think anyone will pay more than that for a rewind of a blown old motor as a new motor also comes with new bearings etc and more important a new unworn rotor gear. which as it wears makes the motor noisy. so if the price is half a new motor 40 usd to rewind people may go for it vs just getting a new motor instead. Also bad idea to remove the temp switch as that protects the motor. can you put it somewhere else on the windings ?
Click to expand...

most people that push higher phase amps will know they need to install a new temperature sensor ( the cyclone one is not very good anyway )

As i have mentioned in my last post rewinding improves so much its like having totally different motor the standard wire wind sucks the standard bearings suck if people are happy with that then buy a new motor if they want one thats way better then get it rewound and have all the bearings changed to way better ones ( standard motors run over 36v 960w over heat have a bad kv and the gears get worn quick because the standard bearings suck ) if you want to run higher voltages improve efficiency and have it last longer its worth it if you stick to 250w 15.5mph its probably not worth it unless you want to lower the wh/ mile
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I am not sure how you got to that information of motor overheating etc, but I've been running the C3000W motor and a stock controller shunt-modded @ 6.5kW on 72V on my trike, no issues in 7000 miles or 1 1/2 years now (except bald tires)... I am about to do a motor overhaul at 10k miles and I will definitively inspect for wear...

This shouldn't be anything new: Rewinding the motor changes it completely, for good or for worse... all depending on the number of windings, wye, delta, double, triple wound, gauge... I've wound enough motors in my life to say: no thanks... I'll just buy a different motor.

And new bearings, etc... that adds up to the cost of the setup. But with the Cyclone 3000W priced at 330 bucks its sorta hard to beat...

In the end the C3000W is an inexpensive starting point... good to get you going, but it can be improved, same goes for mounting solutions... .. the controller, etc. :)

G.
 
gman1971 said:
zackclark70 said:
Alex07 said:
£30 for parts +£10 /h

how many hours would it take to rewind ? as someone mentioned above it probably cheaper to just get a new motor. i think paco sells a new motor for external controller for like 80 usd ? so i dont think anyone will pay more than that for a rewind of a blown old motor as a new motor also comes with new bearings etc and more important a new unworn rotor gear. which as it wears makes the motor noisy. so if the price is half a new motor 40 usd to rewind people may go for it vs just getting a new motor instead. Also bad idea to remove the temp switch as that protects the motor. can you put it somewhere else on the windings ?
Click to expand...

most people that push higher phase amps will know they need to install a new temperature sensor ( the cyclone one is not very good anyway )

As i have mentioned in my last post rewinding improves so much its like having totally different motor the standard wire wind sucks the standard bearings suck if people are happy with that then buy a new motor if they want one thats way better then get it rewound and have all the bearings changed to way better ones ( standard motors run over 36v 960w over heat have a bad kv and the gears get worn quick because the standard bearings suck ) if you want to run higher voltages improve efficiency and have it last longer its worth it if you stick to 250w 15.5mph its probably not worth it unless you want to lower the wh/ mile
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I am not sure how you got to that information of motor overheating etc, but I've been running the C3000W motor and a stock controller shunt-modded @ 6.5kW on 72V on my trike, no issues in 7000 miles or 1 1/2 years now (except bald tires)... I am about to do a motor overhaul at 10k miles and I will definitively inspect for wear...

This shouldn't be anything new: Rewinding the motor changes it completely, for good or for worse... all depending on the number of windings, wye, delta, double, triple wound, gauge... I've wound enough motors in my life to say: no thanks... I'll just buy a different motor.

And new bearings, etc... that adds up to the cost of the setup. But with the Cyclone 3000W priced at 330 bucks its sorta hard to beat...

In the end the C3000W is an inexpensive starting point... good to get you going, but it can be improved, same goes for mounting solutions... .. the controller, etc. :)

G.
Click to expand...
with the mods i have done i have had over 4000w from a small cyclone motor theoretically they can take around 5600w at 72v standard wind ( thats according to a guy that knows a bunch about motors ) i think i could get a bit more with my rewound motors but i think the gear box will be the problem but i am working on a way to fit a sprocket direct to the motor and run a fixed speed on the disk break side
 
zackclark70 said:
jk1 said:
so if the price is half a new motor 40 usd to rewind people may go for it vs just getting a new motor instead. Also bad idea to remove the temp switch as that protects the motor. can you put it somewhere else on the windings ?
Click to expand...

Yeah i agree with others would pay up to 40 USD to rewind an old motor but rather than take the risk it will fail without warranty i would just buy a new one for 80 USD as that has a warranty from paco or another option if you can supply brand new motor with rewind from new then yeah 130 USD is reasonable to spend so much on the rewind as i know the motor will last and in that case i suppose you would also provide a warranty ?

otherwise again not sure if any people would take the risk the motor was not wound properly and fails early or the bearings are shot or the shaft is worn.... a lot of things can go wrong on an old brush less motor so most people wont want to throw a lot of $$$ at it ???
Click to expand...


i just wind motors in my free time it makes no difference to me if people want it or not i provide a warranty that covers defects in my work if someone melts it putting 200 phase amps threw it thats not my problem
have a look at the cost of aft upgrades they are way more expensive
at some point i will put up a comparison video of a bike with a standard motor and one thats rewound
Click to expand...







Hi, Zack,

I have Cyclone 1.6kW whit burn coil.
I have sinusoidal kelly controller and 42V and 10 Ah batery.
Are you still making thisrewinding?
It will bee helpful and I will pay for it of course.
If you wanted
send me pls personal mesage I can´t search your emait.
pls help
 
I've bought and killed a bunch of cyclones and seen some pretty sketchy stuff from the factory so a rewould one would be preferable in my eyes other things equal.

I would be skeptical about someone who offers to rewind motors for minimum wage however. That's why they suck in the first place.

Also, that was 2 years ago so hopefully he's moved on to better things or at least charges more.
 
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