BMSBattery 48V500W 393RPM Versus Cellman 8T

[HombreNeuvoElectro]

Hi all,

Please help me decide on which to go for between these.

Firstly i need to buy and charger and other things from BMSBattery for my new project so my shipping seems to be $39 regardless of what i order.

The BMSBattery kit is $179 and would be shipped pretty quickly. But downsides

Wheel build quality? Controller not full CA compatability

Cellman 8T $379 plus ? Shipping to Ireland. But downsides

Cellman very busy and may be delays

Could i still use all CA feature with KU93,KU123 controllers?

[d8veh]

CA direct plugin is OK, but also can bring problems. You can get the standalone version that simply plugs between your battery and controller, which is much less problematic. It has a separate speed sensor for measuring the speed.

I think that you've underestimated the shipping cost from BMSBattery. The whole kit, including shipping, without battery is about £250. That 393 rpm motor will want to go over 30 mph. You can go a bit slower by running it at 36v for about 24 mph. For 30 mph, you need to think about gearing. You'll need at least 48T on the front with 11T on the back. You can get the 11T back from www.Cyclezee.com.

[Joseph C.]

Cell_man will have a higher wheel build quality. Each wheel is hand-built with proper spokes and rims.

The Mac is a great motor and there are plenty of spare parts available.

Cell_man is the one I would chose (which I have done).

[atom1025]

With a geared hub you need the CADPS. The freewheel makes the speedometer useless. It will need the tire sensor to detect speed. A tire sensor can be easily added to any CA by removing the yellow wire from the "Sp"pad and soldering the two wires from any tire sensor to the"Sp" and "G" pads.

Cellman was a bit delayed to responses but nothing unexpected. I believe from first email to holding product was less the two weeks. The MAC seems tough. The rim build was stout but no dishing was done and there was a crazy wobble I had to pull out. I would 100% recommend cellman.

I have no opinion on bms as I have never done business with them.

[HombreNeuvoElectro]

Thanks for all the replys guys.

My aim is for the most efficient use of battery power at 25mph with the ability to hit 30+ when the need arises

After endless looking through the forum in think that in reality cellman has the higher quality product but then i will be dealing with another vendor and will still have to buy more items from bms battery.

D8Veh - Thanks for you input and i know that you have a Bafang BPM and you will be pleased to hear my base bike in Giant NRS with Fox Forks

Now from reading the code thread on the Bafang i think the 48V 393rpm is code 11 in the rear wheel and this would be the one that most closely matches my needs? What advantage would the 36V 201rpm overvolted to 48V add? This would be code 13 or 15 and and a hill eating monster but in do not have mountains to climb. Sure some decent hill but short bursts.

Maybe i am mistaken but bmsbattery is applying $39 shipping regardless of what i order and the BPM kit is $169.

So with the KU93, KU123 from BMS battery i could still use all the features of the cycle analyst? To limit current etc???

Also i am trying to chose between the speedict and CA. Many features are similar by the CA seems a little more robust and backlit for nightime riding.

Another thing i am trying to consider is the reliability. I commute hail, rain or shine and summer, winter also. I would guess the mac wins on reliability.

But and the same voltage and amps input the 8T and 48V 500W BPM would offer similar performance and consumption or energy?

Atom: That was extremely quicky time from first contact to motor in your hand. Maybe i am over reacting to some threads about how long it takes to get in touch with cellman. Can i ask you the shipping cost?

[atom1025]

Sorry could not tell ya at this time.

[cwah]

I've read the cellman controller have smoother start than the KU ones. Probably worth considering getting a controller from him

[miuan]

I bought the MAC 10t and EB306/309 controllers from cellman. The motor runs fine but a bit louder than BPM. I've run it as a front on a 2WD bike, so it gets used about 1/3 to 1/4 of the ride time. I had a problem last winter where the freewheel got stuck during the ride, so the gears and motor would engage all the time regardless of throttle. As the temp rose above 5C, the problem went away. The controller has an easy to modulate start, not too soft, not too hard.
Cellman can provide an USB adaptor and software with tutorials, so you can program all the features of the controller. You can also get a cheap 11t freewheel from him.

I also bought a lot of stuff from BMSBattery, including chargers. 2 of 10 chargers had problems, one was DOA. Motors were faultless and I've had codes 8, 10, 13 and 17. The code 10 is the same speed as MAC 10t, and is advertised as 48V393rpm. Code 8 should be same as MAC 8t, i.e. 36V393rpm although I believe this rpm is overrated. The newer KU controllers have a nice soft start with Bafang motors but you are limited to stock LVC and other settings since these can't be programmed. They use cheaper fets, but I have neved have one overheat with stock shunt/amperage. The 48V controllers have 36V LVC, ideal for 10S lipo.

The KU controllers are larger for given output than Cellmans ones. You can use Cellman 6fet to produce the same power as with a BMSBattery 12fet which takes up twice as much space. They are also said to produce less heat using genuine IRFB fets, thus increasing efficiency. But BMSBattery controllers offer an advantage of optional sensorless operation which may save you much trouble unless you operate a 2WD bike like me.

You can use ebike.ca simulator to model the BPM code 10, which is what Justin named BPM500. You can also get very sturdy and cheap torque arms with 12x10mm slots ideal for the BPM and possibly also MAC. Use one per side if your frame allows.

Wheel build has been excellent on Cellmans kit using plain 12G spokes, so much better that BMSBattery which use bad rims and spokes that came loose in no time. I ended up relacing both wheels anyway using high end Rigida Andra 10 and 40 rims and Sapim spokes. So I would now only buy bare motors and build them into Andra series rims, since they are strong and have offset drilling that accomodates slack spoke angles very well, a problem with every bigger hub motor.

MAC gears are said to handle more torque due to being wider and made of composite material vs. nylon of Bafang gears which are hard to get hold of, so you are better off buying 2 motors (same price as one MAC anyway) and keeping the other one as spare, or build a spare bike around it, which is what most people over here ended up with.

[Sunder]

Maybe i am mistaken but bmsbattery is applying $39 shipping regardless of what i order and the BPM kit is $169.

If you're relying on the box in the top right hand corner while browsing, you are mistaken. Or rather - it is. I fell for that. I noticed if you just kept adding products, the shipping wouldn't go up. So I asked a mate who refurbishes bikes and made a great reputation for himself on eBay, whether he'd be interesting in taking 10 kits, I'd help him build them, and even if we only made $50 a bike, it'd still be a bit of fun and a fairly risk free experiment... Went through, then on the final stage where you select your postage options, none of them are as cheap as the value in the top right hand corner - and in fact was exactly 10x what it said in the top right hand corner - so not even a discount for bulk shipping.

Atom: That was extremely quicky time from first contact to motor in your hand. Maybe i am over reacting to some threads about how long it takes to get in touch with cellman. Can i ask you the shipping cost?

I've only used BMS once, but I also have to say that it was 3 days from payment to "shipped" then another 3 business days (5 days total) from shipped to on my desk, so barely over a week from payment to receipt. I don't want to endorse them too much yet, since I haven't even installed the new motor, but all looks professional and good so far.

[miuan]

Maybe i am mistaken but bmsbattery is applying $39 shipping regardless of what i order

Simply put, the shipping quote is not updated along each cart update. You have to jump thru checkout to see the actual cost. That said, shipping costs seem to be fair and always reflect the shipping weight. Since they use very fast air shipping, it can't be as cheap as Cellman's SAL shipping. Perhaps they could do SAL too, to enable also small orders.

[Architectonic]

If you want to go 30+ mph, get the MAC...

[miuan]

If you want to go 30+ mph, get the MAC...

Have you ridden both? I have, and both are laughing at 30mph.
40mph on flat is where they start to overheat so the composite gears get handy.

[HombreNeuvoElectro]

Thank you miuan for your direct comparsion between the two. I assumed the ebikes.ca calculator was the code BPM since it say BPM36V500W which i assumed would be the 393RPM @ 36V?

So to sum things up:

BMSBattery:
*Motor is good enough motor but winds a little strange from BPM. I was thinking 48V 393RPM as a happy medium between torque and speed. Since i have read some things about the Code 8 version being fast on the flat but struggling with any kind of hill.

*Wheel - Bad quality build and woiuld probably need to budget for new wheel build

*Controllers - Newer ones are softer starting and sensorless but use different Fets which make the cellman smaller controller able to put out the same as BMS larger ones.

*Postage - I feel like a bit of a fool and thanks for pointing it out but the postage bring the kit price to $305 shipped.

Cellman:
*Strong Motor and 8T good for speed and equally for smaller hills
* Good wheel build
* Good and more efficient controllers.

Ok all. I think we all now where this is heading and the postage has been the clincher.

One other thing. The cellman controllers are the same as ebike.ca controllers?

Do they offer direct Cycle Analyst compatability? And what would be the wisest cellman controller selection?

I will be running 48V

Thank guys

[miuan]

Thank you miuan for your direct comparsion between the two. I assumed the ebikes.ca calculator was the code BPM since it say BPM36V500W which i assumed would be the 393RPM @ 36V?

No, the simulated motor is likely a Code10 = 393@48V = 10t MAC. Not sure why he wrote 36V in there, we all should use wind counts.

[Wurly]

If it's any help, i have a code 10 laced into a 26" wheel, 48V 15ah ping battery KU93 controller limited to 25A. There are external wires on the BMS controller that will help you choose your power levels (3 speed switch). I normally ride at about 21mph but with the flick of a switch i can achieve 25mph and 31mph with pedalling. Another neat feature is cruise control ( i use it all the time).
Changing the chainwheel to 53T would be a good idea as well as fitting an 11T.

You haven't said what battery you intend to use? for 30mph you are going to want something that can supply 30-40amp continuous at least.

I have recently been running another code 10 BPM this one has hall sensors and the start up is noticably much smoother (same BMS controller). Not sure if you can request one with halls, but if you can i would consider it.

[999zip999]

It's nice to go fast but what kind of hills do you have as this slows down a higher speed motor and taxes the battery. Hills need a lower speed motor or will get hot.

[atom1025]

One other thing. The cellman controllers are the same as ebike.ca controllers?

Do they offer direct Cycle Analyst compatability? And what would be the wisest cellman controller selection?

I will be running 48V

Thank guys

Both ebikes.ca and cellman sell infinion controllers. That does not mean the plugs match or that they are programed the same. Cellmans infineon is matched to his kit.

I'm still green when it comes to bike controllers so take my opinion with a grain of salt. If it were me then the infineon 12fet with 4110 fets would be my choice.

[HombreNeuvoElectro]

Wurly: I will be running A123 batteries. Running at 48V requires 30-40amp continuous for 30mph on flat ground? So then i would need a 12Fet controller?
How many amps is the KU93 good for? This is the BMS 9Fet version yes?

999zip999 : I know that i said hills but to put it into context, i looked up an elevation profile of my route. My finish point is 16Feet higher than my start point and the distance is 12.5 miles. However i have a few small hills on my journey. 4% grade for 200 meters and 3% grade for 200 meters. So small enough for the MAC 8T to deal with i should think.

atom1025: Why exactly would you go for 12Fet? Is it not a little to much for my requirements?

I have made up my mind for the MAC 8T Kit. I reality i would like the battery in the triangle but the max i could fit is a cellman triangle pack 36v 11.5ah and i am still considering this but i have a price on an Victpower 48v 20ah with the only downfall that i would have to mount it on a rear rack. I am waiting on cellman to get back to me to make my final decision and it would be perfect to order everything from one vendor.

Looking at the ebikes.ca simulator the difference between 48V 20ah and 36V 11.5ah is night and day for performance and range. I would just hope the balance is not too bad carrying the battery at the rear.

[999zip999]

I'm making an A123 24s. One 12s in the triangle and one on the rear. Yes get a 48v it wakes up a motor. I fit a 48v20ah. Ping in my triangle. Make a box out of cardboard, battery size. Makes a difference when you have it in hand.

[veloman]

I run my 8T mac (26" wheel) on a 52v a123, controller limited to 25amps or so. I have NO ISSUE getting up to 30mph and holding it. Usually tops out at 32-36mph depending on wind/conditions. I weigh 78kg. I think the 8T is the best choice wind, maybe the 10T if it's quite hilly and you don't need high speed.

[Wurly]

.I mentioned 30-40amp as i wasnt aware of the terrain and also a rough guide for 30mph if you cant keep up with peddling at that speed.
The ku93 controller will be ok if it gets airflow.choose a ku123 if you are concerned about thrashing it.I have limited my ku93 to 25amp like i said.Its enough for 30 mph(with pedalling).I did that as i dont want my ping battery to see any more than 1.5c.
I think your biggest decision is what battery and where its going to be on the bike. I would go for 48v , but a 20ah will pretty heavy thing to carry on a rack.