Aerodynamics

I do like the idea of a:
Multifunctional front basket with a closeable domed lid.
When parked or for slow speeds, lid - windscreen portion could be latched or locked closed.

"Click" and front hinged lid will flip up, forming a modest windscreen that you can tuck down behind.
Very similar to:



Small bottom basket extensions on each side of the front tire could provide tool, patch etc. storage with rear access.
Or, basket could provide well protected battery, controller placement.

Surprisingly, the half sphere shape is more aerodynamic than a full sphere ... ?



JFF (Just For Fun(ny)) ... tassels on the ends of the hand grips should help break up the power robbing turbulence behind the half-domed windscreen-basket ... ?

Errrm... So introduce more power robbing turbulence "tassels on the ends of the hand grips"? ... to "break up the power robbing turbulence"???

MY current thoughts is to use a square-ish piece of sail bag cloth as a cover over my current trike (re morning dew, etc.) said cloth can be used/converted to what sailors refer to as a "spanker sail" - Giggle (sp?) images and the term currently brings up a drawing to illustrate the sail as used as the last/trailing sail of a whole bunch of sails as seen on "tall ships".

So "mast" in this case some of the sections from an old fishing rod (or piece of locally grown bamboo). Think height re visibility.

So top/bottom sleeves sewn into cloth hold (watt sailors refer to as "pockets")... maybe more bamboo poles. PLUS (as seen on windsurfer sails) a clear plastic insert, used by windsurfers to see through the sail, but with top opening to insert one/two printed thin paper, etc. adverts/contact info.

If ya look at current ES thread "Converting Hammacher Schlemmer cheapo trike":
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=57408

... trike already comes with welded tube to mount one tiny little flag? So replace plastic pole and (more plastic) sorta tiny "flag" with somewhat taller sail-shaped cloth (tall, thin rectangular shape) supported/slipped over a different thin pole ("mast"), etc. as above. Rider has a thin line to adjust spanker horizontally (EVer wonder what that word starts with "horizon"?) from near fore and aft (sorry, landlubbers think "front/back") or to let out to let sail adjust to winds from directions eg from the stern (sorry, "back").

One or more additional horizontal sleeves to hold more light-weight battens (sorry, "stiffeners").

Anywayz... not the sort of "power-assist" usually discussed on Alt. Planet of ES perhaps, but "Look Here Ma, no battery!".

I did sail a sorta similar trike back and forth one day across an empty parking lot, though w/only one tall sail similar to a windsurfer was mounted forward (sorry, "in front"). (Triangular shape w/ thin pointy bit at top.)

Other stuff to be added/mounted to front of pole include one GPS anemometer:


(as seen on Gizmag site. So "wind speed and direction via Bluetooth" received wirelessly by rider viewable instrument panel.)

When stopped ("parked") thin cloth rectangular sail bottom "spar" (bamboo, etc) can be folded UP at back to depower sail (or sail completely slipped off mast) to be replaced on pole by a savonius generator.


Savonius rotor/generator? ... as seen on ES:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=62084

Sorry. I understand for most on ES the title of this thread means how to AVOID the free energy flowing by.

LockH said:

Sorry. I understand for most on ES the title of this thread means how to AVOID the free energy flowing by.

Click to expand...

it would be free if it would not cost us several hundreds of battery's Wh

Not as ridiculous as a wheel friction generator supplying power to provide unlimited range! ...

The only feasible energy recovery method might be adding a windmill to the front of a bicycle.
Using some of that wind resistance to create "recovered energy".

A turbine type fixture on the front of most aero builds should recover-contribute noticeably to range-speed economy.

Speaking pulling energy out of your arse here is me running my car on coke. No joke it actually works

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N-KC8z7uSuc

Hehe... "pulling energy out of your arse". (Watt sailors have been doing for thousands of years?) As an "ASSist", often with zero other source for propulsion, other than food energy - think pulling oars. Slave work being useful. Ermmm when they don't do something ReVOLTing, that is.) Some of my ancestors suspected to have landed and settled in Wales, on the eastern shores in todaze "United KingDum" (sp?) rowing AND sailing, with skipper and crew ended up staying on the shores and getting mixed up w/the "locals". Watt the Scandinavians refer to as a "fjord", or and inlet from the sea (the "strangers" living on the lands by the "locks" in Gaelic/Celtic, or "Lock lann" for short. Hence the Engrish joke name "Laughlin" (still pronounced "Lock Lann") today).

Now we are getting into the topic of downwind faster than the wind "DWFTTW"

As for using any type of sail on an ebike - I think most of us ride in conditions and on roads, at speeds which won't let us take advantage of any 'sailing'. Maybe if we rode at 10mph and had flat straight roads with high sustained winds it would be another story.

Soo, I'd suggest more talk about reducing the drag of our machines/bodies. I only use about 1000w on this at 40mph (no pedaling). Designed for an aero tuck. Still has much improvement to be done.

Bicyclists, including ebikers - are about as non-aero as anything can get. We are pretty much trying to swim through molasses on our bikes.

Modbikemax said:

Speaking pulling energy out of your arse here is me running my car on coke. No joke it actually works

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N-KC8z7uSuc

Click to expand...

Unlikely! ... equivalent to putting sugar in gas tank.
You can add some, being denser it will settle below the fuel pick up line.
(Cars with electric fuel pumps "in tank" keep a fair amount of fuel below the pick up line to insure pump cooling.)

But ... siphon all fuel out of tank, fill it up with Coke, and give it a try ... ?

Just read through these 12 pages hoping to find some more info/insight into aerodynamics as it pertains to cycles and more specifically optimal velomobile design, as I am in the preliminary design stages of a velo build.
Some good info/discussion, but the Signal to noise is a lil high. So for those that have a bit of time to do some reading and managed to make it this far in the thread, I came across this info from Princeton.edu Aerodynamics of Bicycles. bit of science for your domes.

Hey where is Miles? Isn't he supposed to introduce logic and science to these threads, must be busy. :wink:

DrkAngel said:

Modbikemax said:

Speaking pulling energy out of your arse here is me running my car on coke. No joke it actually works

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N-KC8z7uSuc

Click to expand...

Unlikely! ... equivalent to putting sugar in gas tank.
You can add some, being denser it will settle below the fuel pick up line.
(Cars with electric fuel pumps "in tank" keep a fair amount of fuel below the pick up line to insure pump cooling.)

But ... siphon all fuel out of tank, fill it up with Coke, and give it a try ... ?

Click to expand...

You didn't watch the video. You need to watch the video and all will be explained. I went to a lot of trouble to test the idea the least you could do is watch then make your judgement.

Modbikemax said:

DrkAngel said:

Modbikemax said:

Speaking pulling energy out of your arse here is me running my car on coke. No joke it actually works

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N-KC8z7uSuc

Click to expand...

Unlikely! ... equivalent to putting sugar in gas tank.
You can add some, being denser it will settle below the fuel pick up line.
(Cars with electric fuel pumps "in tank" keep a fair amount of fuel below the pick up line to insure pump cooling.)

But ... siphon all fuel out of tank, fill it up with Coke, and give it a try ... ?

Click to expand...

You didn't watch the video. You need to watch the video and all will be explained. I went to a lot of trouble to test the idea the least you could do is watch then make your judgement.

Click to expand...

Did watch video!
No mention of any method.
No mentioned induction procedure.
No visual proof of Coke being used.
No evidence ... no proof.

But!
Let's look at the reasonability of your claimed Coke as fuel.

Gasoline has an energy density of 31,500 calories per gallon.

Coke?
12oz = 138 calories
10.66 x 138 = 1471.08
Coke has an energy density of 1471 calories per gallon.

So ...
IF you could get Coke to burn ...
31,500 ÷ 1471 = 21.41
It would take 21.41 gallons of Coke to equal 1 gallon of gasoline.

In the USA
Gas would cost $ .20 per mile
vs
Coke would cost $3.00-$4.00 per mile

BIG IF ... you could get Coke to burn.

DrkAngel said:

Did watch video!

Click to expand...

You obviously did not watch it to the end. If you did you would realise you are talking through your arse.
If you watch to the end you will find you can run anything on coke and many have reproduced my results.

I did find an almost believable post of an engine running on Coke.

[youtube]d45AxDhawI4[/youtube]

What's so unbelievable about that? He doe exactly what he says he is going to do.
Perhaps you need to watch to the end to find out the secret.

He did it !
quite clever actually... now I want my 3min back lol

made_in_the_alps_legacy said:

LockH said:

Sorry. I understand for most on ES the title of this thread means how to AVOID the free energy flowing by.

Click to expand...

it would be free if it would not cost us several hundreds of battery's Wh

Click to expand...

Sorry Alpine Master. Was referring to the air flowing by ("winds". See eg windmills, sailing vessels, etc.)

I know.
you might need to open a specific topic for specificly concerned people living in specificly windy area who would support your specific concerns, anyway... it's just air

Hehe... "It's just air" (in thread titled "aerodynamics". Apparently how to slip threw/avoid this "messy stuff".)

Did BTW already start ES thread "The Dynamics of "Aero""
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63657#p952856

Anyway... For folks that actually USE flowing airs ("winds") as free energy, it ain't the destination that's important, it's the travelling to reach that destination, equally important. Folks on ES seem to think high powered (high speeds) aren't "dangerous"? (Kinda wonder watt the ES record is for slamming into... something - and live to relate.)

héhéhé... thxs for that other topic - maybe a mod' could complete the topics titles as "aerodynamic - air as a resistance force" and "The dynamic of aero - air as a driving force"

Hope this blog on rear fairing helps with the Aerodynamics discussion:

http://renewableenergyspace.blogspot.com/2012/11/inexpensive-lightweight-recumbent.html

I'm curious why practically no ES members have done any aero treatments to their ebikes? Especially the ones who like going 30mph and faster.

Some of you can't believe my power consumption at 40mph. Well no doubt, because you are basing your thoughts on your experience, which is like dragging a parachute.

The only good reason I can see to not build a simple front fairing like mine, is because you don't want the looks. It is not stealthy. I get stares everyday. I get quite the kick out of it actually, laughing at people who just stare as a I go by :lol: Yes, it matters a lot, the wind resistance.

Other nice benefits are: some protection from the cold/rain. Storage in front. If you tuck your head down behind it, it's sooo quiet. Feels like a little motorcycle. I try riding my other standard ebikes and I always come back to my fairing ebike. I hate the feeling of the wind dragging me down so much.

Kingfish has done a bit of this, and improved his overall top speed and efficiently greatly on hiw 2WD bike.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=20378

The concept is not lost on me, but the implementation is not so obvious.

If someone were to offer a "fairing Kit" for "Type X" bike, I could see this being pretty popular.

Hmmm.....

I've been thinking about designing and building a fairing kit. But I can't even find a source for the 1mm plastic I used on my bike.

I want to redo my fairing, with a more rounded, seamless profile. It would involved thermal molding.


In the mean time, ogling these http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=639025

I have always wanted a simple way of improving aerodynamics for extended battery range without a lot of expense and hard work involved. Has anyone heard of spoke fins? They seem to be an incredibly cheap and simple way to substantially improve aerodynamics. They are based on the idea that spoke turbulence in the upper section of the wheel is responsible for disproportionally more drag than you would expect from such a small area. I see many posts about how they cannot work but I've yet to hear from anyone who has actually tried them.

`Been saving/collecting corrugated plastic sheets ("Coroplast", like Kleenex (TM) is to tissues) from past political elections. Good thought re "thermal molding". Was just gonna overlap and "Zip tie".)