RC vs HUB - Astro 3210 vs Crystalyte x5304

RC : 68 lbs ( battery included )

- Tidal Force frame
- Motor : Astro 3210 brushless motor
- Controller : Castle HV110, 100 amps Max
- Battery : 10ah PSI 12 cells
- Recumpence 2 stage reduction drive
- Nuvinci cvt in 20" rim with hookworm tires.
- RST Launch forks, 24" Single Track wheel, Avid BB5 disk
- Cycle Analyst with 200 amp Shunt

HUB: 94 Lbs


- Schwinn OCC Stingray frame
- Motor : Crystalyte X5304 brushless motor
- Controller : Crystalyte Analogue, 4110 FET mod, 80 amps Max
- Battery : 10ah PSI 24 cells
- 20" rim with hookworm tire.
- Rock Shox J2 Forks, 24" front BFR rim, Avid Disk
- Cycle Analyst Direct Plug-In

This Post is Useless without Video.. and that's what goes here tomorrow. :wink:

Edit :

[youtube]Eo6IJ3Kf5ZY[/youtube]

This is the argument that has plagued me since the very beginning, what's the best ? what's the fastest ? etc etc etc.. Chain drive or Hub drive ? .. Well, I feel that these 2 bikes are reasonable examples of Ebike-Hotrods, both can be taken to a few higher levels but these are going into the 2500$ range + each.. sooooo.. without completely breaking the bank this is what you get for under 3 g's !

Both bikes are in a partial state of completion.. Both bikes have only front brakes !!!! Both have rear rotors waiting for their caliper mounts ( scrounging for a piece of aluminum thick enough to do the job.. ) .. they also Both haul ass !

However, the bikes are rock solid and in working order. Before i put on the finishing touches i need to sort out the bugs, and i'm well on my way there.

The HUB is a heavier bike, it also has double the batteries, and double the voltage.

Tonight, me and the neighbor took both bikes out for a rip. We both weigh similar amounts, i was on the RC bike.

On level ground, from a rolling start, it's no contest, the HUB smokes the RC bike and leaves it behind all the way up to 60 km/h.

The RC bike accelerates hard for about 1 second and then i have to gear up and in that 1 second the chopper pulls ahead, and 2 seconds more on the RC throttle i have to shift again, i don't even have to fully get off the throttle, i can just ease off the rpm's a hair, shift and hammer the throttle again.. but rpms climb fast and there is no way it keeps up with the hub bike's total acceleration to 60 clicks.

However, at 60 km/h, if the RC bike is allowed to roll on up next to the HUB..

HUB burns 2000 to 2300w and levels out..

RC stays head to head at 50 amps, but has PLENTY of gear left in the nuvinci, at 60 amps it creeps ahead of the HUB, and if i was willing to tax the system even more i can easily force the motor to draw even more, i don't yet know how fast i can get the bike to go, will only find out when i get LiPo so i can discharge at those rates without feeling my back get HOT>..

So where do the batteries carry on the RC bike, backpack? The chopper looks like a good use for a 5304 to me. 36v or 72v on the chopper?

Love pics that make me drool like a bloodhound.

Chopper is also not technically a 'bicycle' with the lack of operable pedals.
If the pedal side of the rc bike were taken away it would be alot lighter also

Nice couple of bikes anywayz YPedal MaN

KiM

Yep, the RC bike has the 12 cells in a backpack, fed by double 10 awg wire.

I'm going with 15 or 20ah worth of Lipo as soon as HK gets more inventory, this will spice things up for sure and will take the weight off the rider = bonus.

Lol.. the chopper has a freewheel on the hub, Mr. Officer.. i swear it's the very next thing i install !! :wink:

see above for update.

The bias here reeks. Number one, twice the cells equals half the internal resistance, so the hub's battery pack is going to perform better.

Number 2, you're comparing a 2 kW RC motor with a 3+ kW hub motor. Get a 6+ kW HXT and make the comparison. The 6 kw HXT is still faaar lighter than the hub motor.

Number 3, your drive-train is suboptimal. Instead of making it a 2-stage, make it a one stage. Each stage reduces the drive-train efficiency. Also, gear it appropriately - shifting through the gears is obviously not an optimal acceleration profile for a motor, but it's *great* for hill climbing (Also, if you're using a nuvinci... need I say more? Efficiency tanks with those.).

However, to illustrate the rc motor's strength that is its current weakness, take both bikes up 15% hills. Make sure you put the RC motor in the best gear! The first motor to overheat loses!

Lol.. yep.. agreed on all counts. except possibly that last one.....

I have to hand it to that Astro, for it's size it sure does pull hard !!! .. and a 3220 would aparently have significantly more ooomph..

Specs on the Astro : ( Typical Power Range 2,000 to 3,000 watts )

http://www.astroflight.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=122

===========
Crystalyte rates the X5 as a " 750w " motor.

Shows how each industry does things so differently.. the RC world rates stuff at max power levels, HUB' s tend to rate at what they can take with a large margin ..

After 10 minutes of hard play, the RC motor will take your fingerprints off... the X5 is barely luke warm.

For Methods to melt down an X5 the way he does.. he has to be having FUN>....

Why not mount the RC drive on the back, and drive the Nuvinci directly? I mean, what with your screen name and all, you can't really be using that front chainring? :wink:

I've no axe to grind. Regardless which wins, I'm still going with the option that means I can pick up my bike for storage overhead. (without that "sword of damocles" feeling while I'm working underneath)

Just an idea, but why not do one run, then recharge and switch batteries? I know that you don't want to do a bunch of work to make this "just so", but that seems like a pretty simple way to increase confidence in the results.

And oh, BTW, you have TWO bikes of this caliber??? WTF? How fair is that? You probably don't have storage space for them even. I humbly volunteer my garage. I just want to help.

Katou

2 ? lol....

I have an Agni 95 Reinforced, a 72v 500 amp controller, an XR200R frame, plan to run it on Lipo.. just need mounting plates and some time to finish that up.

The Norco Chaos bike is about to be put back together with a 100v 5ah pack of Lipo, using a clyte 409 again in a 20" .

The Pukka is waiting for a Koll motor mod..

Got a 1000w cyclone kit i have not yet found time to install..

a minibike with a 407 in a 16" rim..

2 x eZee mtb's , one rear 48v, other 36v front.

the A2B Metro..

... what else.. i know i'm forgetting something or other...... ...

Don't you have a folder bike too?


aND lots of battery

How did you pick up the Agni? Did you pay full price? Man, the price of that motor is killer.

No wonder people send you stuff to ev-aluate, you certainly have a stable against which to compare.

Katou

Ypedal said:

Specs on the Astro : ( Typical Power Range 2,000 to 3,000 watts )

http://www.astroflight.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=122

===========
Crystalyte rates the X5 as a " 750w " motor.

Click to expand...

I think the RC industry rates at continuous power levels (given adequate cooling airflow), whereas crystalyte rates at legal e-bike levels. Does it at all seem odd that the motor's rating and the federal US rating are exactly the same?

We all know that a 50cc in moped is rated at "1.5 hp" because it is limited by law, but it's "real rating" is far more if you permit it to (Though nowadays, you have to do a bunch of modifications whereas in the past, it was as simple as some limiter removal.).

i want to see the videos

I think the hub motor will eventually win out. Perhaps geared hub motor. It is a far simpler, more elegant solution. The only major downside I can see is that everything is rotating weight. But removing chains, gears, motor mounts, gear reductions, etc is a huge plus for hub motors. Eventually, someone will build a great hub motor, and after that the mid-drives will disappear like horse drawn buggies :wink:

I have built (had built) a great hub motor - internally steel geared 8:1 with 135mm dropout clearance required and thread on disc to 6 bolt 42mm iso standard... The problem is weight (because of the steel gearing and oil bath it's about 8.5lbs without spokes, rim or tire - still better than a DD hub and more stout than any geared hub on the market today!, clearance (even after proper dishing) for a 9spd freewheel, combined with the lack of ability to shift so I have to massivly overpower the units to get fair torque (ok, nose breaking torque when it flips in place under you and the handlebar stem smashes the bridge of your nose... because you hit the throttle about 10%).

In my most recent commute this evening... I ran an 18S1P 5AH pack combined with an infineon 9FET with the shunt soldered down and reprogrammed to allow 70A of Primary Current (can't remember my phase current)... This bike (on a folder) weighs in about 25lbs + 8.5 for the motor addin and finally a 5.4 lb battery - total biek weight is approx: 39 lbs with pack or 33.5 lbs without power.

My commute took me over some of the most insane hills (I mean my pedal gearing is 48t/16t right now and I can hit about 11mph pedaling max but I have a difficult time getting up these hills unpowered even standing/stomping on the pedals with 20" wheels none the less.. Meanwhile my hub motor will start at the bottom of the hill at 0 and be at 22 within 200 feet, by the top of the hill (it gets steeper at the very top) I have hit 25mph on average. On the flats I hit 31 with no effort at all (can't pedal over 10/11mph) and with a 25mph avg and 32mph top speed (I kept downhill speed to 25mph max with the brakes so it wouldn't skew my numbers)...

So 18S1P 5AH with peaks of 70A and 4454w peak (or 5.9386 HP) I traveled 7.9 miles and used only 3.715ah and 250.7wh which works out to 31.73wh per mile... quite respectible considering 30+ mph on the flats, 25 up the steepest hills and nearly maximum speed the whole time - oh yea and without the ability to pedal assist at speed at the moment (about to change).

For the record these hubs are designed for 17A most efficient current and 20mph at 45v (15S LVC) - the intent is a 1HP high torque, legal speed motor... but theyre officially rated at 680w? LOL and nope they don't even warm up under the 5.9 HP peaks.

All that said... with a 3210 and sufficient current, reterminated in wye and with an efficient reduction... the amount of torque peaks you could generate are sick (think 320 ft lbs of torque at the crank)... Reduction can be complicated or if you can spring 100.00 for a fairly efficient reduction check the BaneBot P:80 9:1 (2 stages 3 planets each, very strong) they can handle up to 85 ft lb of torque and you still have to couple to the rear wheel or a freewheeling crankset but... They offer amazing amounts of reduction... There is a Norco BaneBot build here using an astro that is pretty amazing...

Also isn't a crystalyte 20lbs without spokes, rim, tire or tube? My entire rear hub wheel (with maxxis hookwork 20x1.95) weighs in at about 11lbs with tire, rim spokes, etc.

-Mike

Mwkeefer, sounds like a great motor, any build pics. Was this built from scratch or did you modify an existing hub motor? Would be interested in doing the same if possible.

IMO these bikes look so much like electric bikes that all that work is just wasted. These things look like they deserve license plates.

i think stealth has been forgottten on a lot of ES builds..these two bikes included...

Stealth has to rate up there with performance...what I believe is of utmost importance is to whiz by and appear just like a regular bike..with a superman rider.

ITs bikes like these 2 examples which will get ebikes banned.

Did i say stealth is important?

How loud is that RC motor? Looks like that one will go the way of the goped for sure.

The only people who will care about "hot" builds such as these are people of the ES community...which in relavence is very small.

I would strongly disagree with this.

Hot-rod type builds are the only reason many folks on here ever considdered riding an E-bike.

I've got nothing against stealth, but I've also got zero interest in something like a 20amp 48v setup. I would just drive or take on of my motorcycles instead.

Just getting cyclists who would still ride bikes to ride power-assist bikes doesn't change much. Getting folks out of cars and onto E-bikes does make a real improvement. Hotrod bike builds work as the lure to make this happen (heck, it worked on me!).

-Luke

extremegreenmachine said:

IMO these bikes look so much like electric bikes that all that work is just wasted. These things look like they deserve license plates.

i think stealth has been forgottten on a lot of ES builds..these two bikes included...

Stealth has to rate up there with performance...what I believe is of utmost importance is to whiz by and appear just like a regular bike..with a superman rider.

ITs bikes like these 2 examples which will get ebikes banned.

Did i say stealth is important?

How loud is that RC motor? Looks like that one will go the way of the goped for sure.

The only people who will care about "hot" builds such as these are people of the ES community...which in relavence is very small.

Click to expand...

liveforphysics said:

I would strongly disagree with this.

Click to expand...

Yes complete bullshit extremegreenmachine, people here are enthusiasts that take
pride in their e-bikes and put many hours and alot of money into them, for you to say "IMO these
bikes look so much like electric bikes that all that work is just wasted." is total garbage. Not
everyone is content to slip on a frock motor and an off the shelf battery, I 100% support Lukes
post and fall into the same category he does and probably YPedal MaNs also, if i only had
a choice of a pissy frock motor and 20amp controller i wouldn't have the slightest interest in e-bikes
everyone that has seen my electric bike in person haven't said think it requires license plates
it is obviously a bicycle not a motorcycle, as are YPedal MaNs rides, so the chopper has no pedals,
its still 100% built from bicycle parts.
You obviously know very little about the alternatives to a frock motor but conclude that they are bad for the
e-bike image and will go the way of a goped, what a retarded thing to say! Not everyone
wants a whisper quiet ride pal least of all me! i love the noise of an rc motor at full noise, it's
not in the least bit annoying to me or those around me.

Good job YPedal MaN both the bikes are excellent examples of
DIY ingenuity IMO.

KiM

Make that 3. High power bikes will sell like hotcakes, and the other extreme Australia's 200w rule would stifle e-bike growth and limit it just to cyclists wanting some hill assist or to arrive at work less sweaty. If high power requires registration and rules, that won't be too bad and long as the rules make some sense and the process of registration is relatively easy. If it keeps 12 year olds off of the streets with bikes like mine, that's a good thing.

MWKeefer,
Where's can we find more info on this motor? It's sounds like the only thing missing is a 2nd set of planetaries and a dog shifter.

Welllll,,, Stealth can be crucial if you are trying to ride an illegal homemade motorcyle on pubilc roads without getting noticed by the police.

But for a boring street and bike path legal bike, what's the difference if it's stealth or not? What is your purpose in being stealth? Trying to tease pedalers? Ok that is fun! but not essential.

I still sort of disaprove of the really fast, (above 30 mph) ebikes riding on the paved roads. But only if the cops give a damn. If they don't why should we? So each rider judges what will fly in his own locality. My only concern is a few bad wrecks, or bad attitude riders generating a 200 watt law for Me. Any city can do it on thier own, or just ban em completely. A couple shrill parents at a city council meeting could do it.

You don't want to end up with some messed up local rules. Some places you can ride an ebike on the street, but you can't ride a 100w stand up scooter. But in that town you can't take the ebike on the metro train, but you can take the 100w scooter on the train. Perfect.