Epic Battery Bag Story

Kingfish

100 MW
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Messages
4,064
Location
Redmond, WA-USA, Earth, Sol, Orion–Cygnus Arm, Mil
The Beginning:

  • Starting in December 2009, I began my ebike adventures with a triangle battery & bag and a rear-rack mounted battery, both LiFePO4 from ebikes.ca; good enough for the first two months.
  • By Feb 2010 I had switched to Zippy Flightmax 5S1P LiPos, and stuffed six into the Triangle Bag to make 10S3P for commuting. Before the end-of-month I added a Trunk Bag with another 10S6P which gave me enough (10S9P total) to do the Chilly Hilly and attempt my first electric Century (see 101 Club).

    BatteryBagsChillyHilly.jpg

  • About a month later I stuffed another 10S1P into the Trunk Bag for a total of 10S7P in the rear (10S10P total).
  • In June of 2010 I reworked the entire configuration and voltage for cross-country and put 18 Zippys in each Ortleib pannier for a complete system of 15S12P (see On the road…)
After July, I removed about ½ of those batteries, although this still left me with substantial multi-day commuting capacity. However – as is obvious in the picture below, commuting has not been kind to this setup. In addition, there was too much weight on the rear which in the rain causes the FWD to slip. Regardless, I wish to return to the wonderful world of balanced biking with batteries collocated in the triangle.

OrtleibBagsAfterMonthsOfUse.jpg


I drew up considerable permutations trying to stuff as many Zippys up forward as I could; at one time I thought that 27 could fit. Clearly my tea was too strong. Also the flips and spins of many assorted orientations on CAD simply did not transfer well into reality with several constructions abandoned.

batterybagdesigns-lots&lots.png


I looked at sheetmetal, I looked at aluminum, at fiberglass, at carbon fiber, and thermoplastic, expanded foam, acrylic, leather, camera, computer, cycling, motorcycle, horseback, downhill, pre-fab, contracted, customized, off-the-shelf, under-the-shelf, and shamelessly begging local tradesmen for help. I wrote letters to manufacturers; dead air, no-reply. I canvased store after store, searching, hiking, hunting, digging, for clearances, for thrift shops, for a dirty bone to gnaw on. REI, Patagonia, North Face, Kawasaki, Yamaha. Harley-Davison, Honda; they’d seen my face often enough to know be by first name.

Finally I resolved to sew one up myself after one bid came in for $450 for one bag from an upholsterer. Angst-driven to source a material supplier, I found a fantastic shop in Seattle: http://www.seattlefabrics.com :wink:

Then the hunt began for the sewing machine. Most reviews lead to the Artisan 1797 AB Walking Foot Machine; not cheap at $1195.00. It can be found cheaper elsewhere if you dig hard enough, and I did. But then the guy from New Jersey says “Whaddayagonnauseitfer?” and I says for making a battery bag. He says “Saveyerselfs’money; buya Tacsew”, so I did; saved about $500. Two weeks later the boxes arrive. They were monstrously heavy.

Took me weeks to put it together try to decipher the pigeon-English and understanding the ass-backward diagrams reversed from Chinese from a reversed-English manual; something gets entirely lost in translation and it’s more than just the instructions. I ended up having to go to Seattle Fabrics and taking pictures of how their floor model worked to complete my assembly. It depressed me. Summer came and went; I didn’t notice as I was hunched over trying to make heads or tails out of the diagrams redrawn obviously by someone given a napkin-illustration of the assembly. It made no sense.

Finally after many long hours on the Xbox, in the jittery 3 AM fog of after-game adrenal shutdown the assembly made sense: Use a hammer. Like the Soviets, the Chinese don’t know jack-shit about quality control; everything on this machine was a copy of a copy, and after a few iterations the parts didn’t quite resemble the drawings - from which world war, who really knows. Problem solved. :wink:

I fired up the beast and began demo stiches: It has all the finesse of a brahma bull in a china shop. Great for making canvas sails! Not so great for sewing in detailed features – like a zipper, or a hem! I was depressed. More Xbox. I got better at guitar. Played Star Craft 2 in less than a week, twice.

A second round of pre-made bag hunting ensued. “Oh you again! How’s the hunt for the battery bag going?” I didn’t recall meeting this guy before yet he knew all the details. Personal note: Cut back on the Starbucks. Cut back on the Cliff Bars too. No joy; back to the cave.

I draw up a new set of plans; Version 0, simple, clean, foolproof. Pattern too large for printer; FedEx does it for me in a pinch for $5; kuewl (hehe-hehe). :twisted: Cut it out and tape it together. Doesn’t assemble right. Try pattern again, this time model it in 3D and transpose. Rinse & Repeat at FedEx; awesome the pattern works. Spent two days cutting materials, then another two days fretting, measuring, double-checking. OK, let’s stich this puppy up. One half done; messy. Bring the two halves together and it dawns on me: It’s a great idea, but I have neither the skill, nor the machine to do the detailed precise stitching to achieve the proper assembly. Too numb to be depressed, more Xbox. My friends comment on how well I play guitar. More Xbox.

batterybag-Now@IMAX-3D!.png


One more time: Talk to the machinist, show him the pattern; he puts it to me nicely and doesn’t think I could afford him. Talk to the custom Body Shop guy that did such a spectacular repair effort on my vehicle after a hit-n-run smash-job while I was inside the bank making a deposit. He priced the fiberglass work out as requiring 300 hours: Dude – you need to be wearing a respirator when working with epoxy! Back to REI; I’ve gotta find something that will work dammit! Up the stairs, down the stairs, this department and that. Any bag is worth looking at; an inspiration, a revelation, an epiphany, a whack on the head – something has to give, has to be the right size, has to be workable, and…

I found it ~ the idea at least… :idea:
D'oh! KF :shock:
Part 2 next...
 
Kingfish said:
Regardless, I wish to return to the wonderful world of balanced biking with batteries collocated in the triangle.
In other words, all because you prefer the design of the Victorian pedal bicycle, rather than a reconfigured two-wheeled 20th-century footbike aka standup electric scooter, where pack placement is simple, either under the feet or low down on the upright... AFAIK legal in your great state. :wink:
LocK
 
uh... sounds familiar. 5 months into this eBike thing and i still haven't found / thought of / invented a good battery case. Right now i'm using a rear topeak rack that is terrible.

I know what we need. Square frames :p
 
neptronix said:
I know what we need. Square frames :p
That's kinda why I modified CrazyBike2's central frame the way I did...but it could be taken even farther. :)
 
amberwolf said:
neptronix said:
I know what we need. Square frames :p
That's kinda why I modified CrazyBike2's central frame the way I did...but it could be taken even farther. :)

Ahh, if i only had the space for a welding machine.. the things i would do :p
 
Makes me glad I'm a KISS kinda guy. I make boxes any shape I need out of poplar wood end pieces and alu sides. Ugly, and awkward, but they protect my cells better than a bag of any kind.
 
I read the epic battery story, but I can't find the final chapter or its rough draft or notes. I HATE CLIFFHANGERS. :mrgreen:
 
D’ats cos I’m still scribblin' it down! It’s a work-in-progress Feature. Patience! :lol:
(KF passes popcorn over to John)

Smything away... KF
 
Is the writing still in progress, or the story still in progress? Inquiring minds want to know.

Cameron
 
Kingfish said:
D’ats cos I’m still scribblin' it down! It’s a work-in-progress Feature. Patience! :lol:
(KF passes popcorn over to John)

Smything away... KF

Perfect. Thx for the popcorn while I wait. Any music during the intermission? 8)
 
Both! That's what makes it fun; even I don't know the outcome! :shock:

Imagine: Gripping drama from Redmond! Who will survive? Will he, or won’t he? And what about Marylou?
Stay tuned as Kingfish Theatre presents… Part 2: A Tale of Two Bags

(KF dispensing soda from the fountain… and passes it to Cameron)
I wear many hats in this outfit. :roll:
~KF
 
Kingfish said:
Both! That's what makes it fun; even I don't know the outcome! :shock:

Imagine: Gripping drama from Redmond! Who will survive? Will he, or won’t he? And what about Marylou?
Stay tuned as Kingfish Theatre presents… Part 2: A Tale of Two Bags

(KF dispensing soda from the fountain… and passes it to Cameron)
I wear many hats in this outfit. :roll:
~KF

As John, Thx. Any Raisinets behind the counter? :D Looking forward to it. I like putting things mechanical and/or electrical together, but when it comes to looks/style, I envy those of you who can design it yourself and make it work and look good.

Cameron
 
dogman said:
Makes me glad I'm a KISS kinda guy. I make boxes any shape I need out of poplar wood end pieces and alu sides. Ugly, and awkward, but they protect my cells better than a bag of any kind.

What are you doing to protect your pack from vibration?
I have been looking to build a triangle mounted battery pack out of aluminum. But on a non-suspension frame, vibration is a bit worrying.
 
No vibration protection on the no suspension racing bike in the pic. The racetrack is pretty smooth, and the batteries fit in the box extremely tight.

On all the other bikes, full suspension baby! My lower back needs it much more than the battery. But if using lipo, I think if you are stashing them in tight fitting boxes, vibration could only affect your connectors. The HK turnigy lipo pack I dissected when it puffed looked pretty well constructed to me. I can't imagine my body taking enough vibration to shake one apart. More delicate pack constructions like spot welded round cells might be much more vibration damage prone.
 
Dangit :p.. i have already ruled out dual suspension due to the fact that i pedal intensely. Many bike shops have told me to forget pedaling with a dual suspension bike as much of the energy goes into making the rear suspension bob about.

At best i may have front suspension, which seems kinda useless for the most part.

This making a battery box business is getting irritating. It would be easy if i had a stack of lifepo4 where i didn't have to, on occasional give the cells some TLC. With LiPo, you can't really enclose everything and forget about it.

Maybe i'll do the backpack thing :cry:
 
Part 2: A Tale of Two Bags

Right. What are the issues we face today with putting batteries into the triangle area of a common bicycle frame, anyone, anyone?
(Opps, sorry… monolog mode=ON)

Well, Geometry of the battery is the biggest factor: Big fat batteries are a non-starter; better to use the little guys – like for example the little Lipo bricks I’m using. They are about 0.75 x 3 x 5.5 in shape. Three could fit neatly if the sides were rotated so that the total wide is less than 4 inches directly below the Top-Bar. Get any wider than that and trouble begins. :|

Every bag I looked at was too thick; I could find many where the height and width were suitable, but that thickness was always 4 or 5 inches, and as a saddle bag on a bike, that’s too much. Then there are the crankarms and pedals which have to clear the bag on each cycle around the axle.

I began sensing possibilities when I examined little kids daypacks; that’s really where the confidence took hold because they are very small, teardrop-shaped, and not too puffy relatively speaking. The shape nearly fits inside the triangle area of my 19-year old Specialized Rockhopper MtB; I think a common bike would swallow the bag completely. That’s one idea, but not the one I settled on, and besides: I’m not big on Barney.

Around the corner from the Barney bags were the Camelbacks! :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: <ding ding ding ding>
If you guessed this as an option, take a bow! :wink:

Camelback bags are inherently small and low-profile over all other types of bags. They have different sizes too depending on capacity. The price is equitable – ranging from $40 up to over $120 depending on how many whiz-bang features are included. They are stylish, technical, loaded with pockets and places to hang stuff; overall it’s an interesting gear bag and a viable candidate for modification.

REI allowed me to bring my ebike in so I could test-fit sizes; these folks are captivating, helpful, and have given me a long leash to play… probably because almost everything I wear advertises REI. Anyway – I wound up with two candidates and brought them home so I could see how many batteries I could stuff into one. (The dimensions were memorized and I had access to a tape measure so all that’s left is a go/no-go test).

CamelbackBagsFoxLobo.jpg


Fox on the Left, Lobo on the Right:
Fox bag only held 7 LiPos, though it was a good tight fit. Lobo could easily take all 9 batteries, and maybe the BMS boards too. The problem was the Lobo bag was a little too puffy; you have top flaps at both ends that bulge outward, and it would take some sort of netting to reign that puffiness in – which was approaching the dreaded 4-inch zone. But then the Fox bag didn’t hold enough batteries. :|

Boy… what to do. I really needed a solution: Fox was $59 and the Lobo was $75. I decided to gamble on the Fox and try to modify it for 9 batteries because 2 x $59 is a lot cheaper than the $450 quote from the upholsterer, and I sure wasn’t sniffing epoxy to think it would take 300 hours of fracking around with fiberglass. No, that won't do; a line had to be drawn and I had to commit, so this is it: Modify the Fox camelback bag.

I took the Lobo bag and exchanged it for another Fox. On we go… :wink:

Technical Details:
Fox “Low Pro Hydration Pack Black” $59.95 at REI.
See http://www.foxhead.com for manufacturer details. There are no other colors available, though there are differing sizes.

Back at it, KF
Part 3 - modifying the bag details shortly with LOTS of pics.
 
Part 3: Machine and Materials

I got to thinking and rather than reference this stuff on the fly, let’s just identify what’s needed so we can move on to the more interesting stuff. This list of materials may be appended or edited as this project proceeds.

Disclaimer: This needs to be said right up front - I am using the Zippy FlightMax 5S1P LiPo batteries which fit tightly in this bag. If you have batteries that are larger than stated it is likely this solution probably won’t work out unless the orientation is changed in a manner otherwise described (pictured later).

Workstation:
I bought a Tacsew sewing machine.

TacsewWorkstation.jpg


Note: The blueprint above the sewing machine is a copy of my first electric vehicle that I designed and built in college.

It is a challenge to operate, although I am becoming better skilled at it with each hour spent. My unit came with the table and lamp; the motor (not shown) is mounted below. When engaged it makes an audible hum – especially upon spin-up, though not unpleasant. You really need three arms to use this device:
  • Right foot is on the pedal, and
  • Right knee lifts/releases the Walking Foot.
  • Left hand guides the material
  • Right hand does double-duty slowing the right belt-driven wheel, assisting in preventing runaway rotation when not guiding material, and
  • Right forearm depresses Reverse-Arm (below the Tacsew label and thread-spacing knob).
I have figured out that wearing the right glove greatly helps me control the speed of the belt-drive without blistering my hand. A 1000W rheostat/speed-control would be perfect. (One of the features included in the Artisan machine).

Construction Materials:
  • Thread, DB-92 heavy-weight continuously filament Bonded Polyester; all-weather UV-resistant, strongest stuff Seattle Fabrics offers.
  • Needle, 110/18 (I haven’t broken one yet); Universal Schmetz Needles
  • Webbing, Polypropylene (PPE), Black – 1 inch wide
  • Webbing, Polyester Seatbelt, Black – 2-inches wide
  • Webbing, PPE, Black – 4 inch wide
  • Grosgrain Ribbon, Black – ¾ inch wide; used for wrap-around trim to cover rough edges
  • Velcro, Black, 1-inch wide Hook & Loop
Sheeting materials:
These may or not be used in this construction, but I have them in quantity from previous projects.
  • High-Density Closed-Cell Foam, Dark Gray – 1/8 inch thick; universal padding, waterproof.
  • Vinyl-coated Polyester, 42 oz. Black; toughest sheeting material in stock
  • HDPE sheeting, Flexible High Density Polyethylene, 24" x 47" x .035", various colors: Black, Yellow, White; this is semi-rigid, and when combined with the Vinyl-coated Polyester it makes for unbeatable armoring.
Tools:
  • Sharp scissors
  • Seam Ripper with protective ball, Heavy-Duty
  • Tape Measure
  • Straight-edge (could be a ruler or small T-Square)
  • Marking Pen (red is best)
  • Pins & cushion
  • Stapler (long is better than short)
  • OptiVisor for close-up detailed work, especially when ripping seams.
  • Good strong lighting
  • Patience! (very important)
Apologies – the notes are taking longer than expected as I’ve been distracted by other fun stuff. My helmet arrived today, so that had to be documented before wearing it.

Tooled-up, KF
Up next… Part 4: Breaking down the Bag
 
Im not using lipo's but after alot of looking for a bag that fitted my needs i ended up with a topeak.

http://www.topeak.com/products/Bags/MTXTrunkBagDXP

My 36v 20Ah ping battery only just fits, but looking at its size you would fit a load of lipo's in it.

One of the good things about it is its removable so no need to leave expensive battery's on the bike when its locked up.
 
Just spent 2.5 hours at 3 different bike shops and 2 different department stores and ya know what.. i looked at the hydration backpacks as well and thought 'aha! this may be it!' Of course, i didn't have any lithium batteries on me to test the fitting.

Should be interesting to see what you come up with :)

The topeak MTX will fit about 8-10 5s packs. However, it clunks around like crazy. This is not something i want to hear every time i hit a bump or crack in the pavement. I have one on my bike right now and it is headed for CL.
 
Part 4: Breaking down the Bag

In this next segment the goal is to remove the parts of the bag that do not have a future and prep it for modification.

Step 1: Remove unused parts
The first thing we need to do is remove the bladder. Laying it on the table with the top pointing upward, open the front flap, open the horizontal zipper, and undo the little black plastic clip from the small polyethylene rope; this will untangle the bladder from the bag. Now reach in and pull the bladder out. Depress the gray plastic fitting to detach the tubing: The bladder is now free. Snake the fitting-end of the tubing out of the bag and remove it by detaching from the strap: The tubing is now free.

Fox-RemoveBladder.jpg


Note: The bladder and tubing are perfectly fine pieces of equipment and very well could be reused within another gear bag, therefore I suggest hanging on to them. :mrgreen:

ADDENDUM: Forgot a small easy task…
In the figure above directly behind the bladder is a stretchy rope that is laced across the lower front face, and can be adjusted by depressing the little plastic bit. The problem is that the ends of this stretchy rope are terminated with a plastic pull-tab that can’t be undone. Just cut the ends off, remove the plastic adjuster-dealy and drag the rope free. I saved mine because there could be a valid use for it down the road. :wink:

- - - - -

Step 2: Now we are ready to cut the bag.
The first time I did this it took a bit of time and study to figure out exactly what needed to come off. The second time though went a lot faster because I now knew how the bag was constructed and therefore could execute cutting without a worry.

In the image below there are two bags: The top row is the unmodified Fox bag, Front View on the Left and Back View on the Right. The bottom row shows the first bag already modified in the same corresponding views: It’s longer, reinforced, and has a strong side-flap added along the length where we’ll join the bags together.

EDIT: was "top-flap"; is now "strong side-flap..."

Fox-bothMod&UnMod.jpg


Let’s remove the straps. Flip the bag over so we see the backside with the bottom edge pointing up. Cut the bottom left and right straps off as indicated along the green line right up next to the seam; it’s ok to leave a little bit of material – no need to be perfect. The bag on the left has been completely modified and is shown for reference.

Fox-CutoffLowerStraps.jpg


Flip the bag over so we see the front side with the top pointing up. The Fox bag has this handle-feature; a cutout that looks like it’s designed to be a handle when it’s not on your back. We need to cut this part off along the lower edge of the handle on the left side as indicated by the green line, and again on the right; just cut right through so it is nearly level all the way across. This action removes straps entirely. The bag on the left is completely modified and shown for reference.

Fox-CutoffUpperPart.jpg


Let’s get our trusty Seam Ripper now and prepare to remove the Grosgrain Ribbon securing the front flap to the front face. In the image below, Figure A shows the bag after the cuts have been made in the previous step.

Fox-TopFlapRipSeam&Staple.jpg


I find it useful to pin or staple loose pieces of material down so they don’t wander and become misaligned. The top flap is a critical piece of the bag, so where we’ve made the cuts – let’s staple the top flap back to the top face (take care to not staple all the way through the entire bag). Figure B shows where I have stapled the left side, and about to staple the right. Part of the Grosgrain Ribbon has been removed.

Note: If you’ve never used a Seam Ripper before you might want to play with it on some old shirts or rags that have a hem to get the hang of it. The red ball goes into the pocket of the seam, and gently pressing forward with a slight wiggle causes the knife edge to cut the stiches. Be careful though for it’s easy to impale yourself or shred the material! :cry:

Figure C shows the Grosgrain Ribbon completely removed, and the red lines point to both staples which are securing the front flap to the front face.

- - - - -

Step 3: We need to finish opening up the pocket...
so take the top of the bag and spread it open along the same line where we just removed the Grosgrain Ribbon; in Figure A, by using my middle and index fingers to create the effort and the other fingers holding the bag (yeah – it’s a bit precarious; kind of a challenge to do solo), with the other hand use the Seam Ripper to separate the two halves.

Fox-TopFlapFinishRipping.jpg


Figure B shows how this action opens the pocket. Next we remove the small polyethylene rope at the two points indicated by the green arrows.

Lastly, we need to make room to add an extension to the top of bag, and we do this by ripping open the seams on the left and right sides as indicated in Figure C; about an inch or so is all that is required. Note: Don’t go past the horizontal zipper least we introduce new alignment problems! :shock:

OK – we are done with ripping and cutting. In the next phase we’ll reconstruct the bag into a new more useful arrangement. 8)

Stay tuned. KF
 
For those without an industrial sewing machine, you might also look at various other items. I panniered two 24v nicad packs very nicely for awhile, using one bell handlebar bag for each 24v 8 ah nicad pack. A pretty good fit for 4, 5 ah turnigy bricks too. So two attached like panniers to a rear rack would easily carry 72v 10 ah.

Other off the shelf options, soft lunchboxes. Some are cheap crap, others look pretty stout, and may be shaped good for carrying lipo. Another option are water bottle sleeves. Quart size ones also look about right for 4 lipo bricks. Womens purses, the list goes on and on if you are seeing instead of merely looking at stuff.

Want some really big, but narrow panniers? Have you even looked at laptop bags? 12x 16 x 3" Perfect for carrying a shitload of lipos.
 
Comments & Replies to Responses:

Just so we have a clear field of vision, I was turned away by a machinist and body-shop for constructing a hard-surfaced container designed to fit in the triangle area. I don’t have access to a garage or shop, although my saucer is full of technology & experience, and I aim to use it within the confines of a typical urban dweller. :)

Are hard containers better at protection? Yes – they are ideal, and greatly preferred. One day I hope to craft or contract them. For now though, a reinforced toughened soft-bag is the next best solution.

Vibration is inherently attenuated by softer containers if the entire assemblage is well-constrained, and movement of the unit as a whole is restricted: This is the goal of the present construction.

Locking & Security issues are noted; all soft-body assemblies – including plastic enclosures have the potential for tampering and theft. This is a good subject worthy of deep exploration. :idea:

Novara Trunk Bag: I have one (not presently used though saved) and I ended up padding the batteries to keep them from being jostled about within the container. The second feat was overcoming the insufficient frame-fastening mechanisms; mine wobbled about on the rear rack until I had an epiphany at the bike shop: Use an inner-tube to secure the bag:

2010_fw_P0&Kingfish.jpg


This is picture is taken after the 2010 Flying Wheels Century event; the Novara bag is held down by a crisscross overlay of a typical 26” tube stretched over and knotted off. Let me see if I can enhance this photo…

TopeakTubingTieddown.jpg


The top red arrow points to the knot, the two lower arrows point to the crossovers – and it you look closely you’ll see that I also have a layer of ½ inch white closed-cell packing foam between the bag and the rear rack for additional padding. The tubing, acting like a giant rubber band, proved superior in securing the bag in place; no wobbling inside or out, and no worries. (Apologies for not having a better picture of this unique configuration; it worked really well) :)

Sewing machines: I believe that the Tacsew is probably overkill for this particular project; however I also attempted fabrication of armored soft-bags and for those sorts of tasks this is the class of machine required. I am considering a fetching a lighter-class industrial-grade sewing machine that is easier to work with, supported by a range of stich-patterns implicitly. The question though arises: Am I a design & prototype-oriented business or a production manufacturer? :roll:

I think as a hobbyist that a sturdy well-built consumer-model sewing machine can handle the type of work we’re describing here so long as we identify the importance of being able to use:
  • heavy-gauge thread,
  • frequent replacement of strong sharp needles,
  • keeping it well-maintained and oiled, and
  • able to handle material thickness up to ¼ inch.
If your machine can do seat cushions, bean bags, curtains, and bedspreads – there’s good reason it can handle this job! :wink:

Let’s move forward with sewing up the tough stuff.
Onward, through the fog…
~KF
EDIT: 12/22/2010 - Trunk bag incorrectly identified as Topeak; is now Novara.
 
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