A BUSETTII 86 MILE RANGE

[georgefromvt]

Here is the reply from the owner. " Busettii's highest torque bike is the BIG 50 MIle Cruiser and it comes with a 6 speed geared brushless hub motor. Busettii motors are not like other brands. We make all our own batteries and motors. This bike has a 600 watt Dynamic range motor which means it can Torque UP to 1500 watts max power (even though it could handle 1800 watts if we wanted) and still is not running at its limit (running at the limit wastes a lot of power and produces heat). THe motor has a built in HILL sensor so that you can use the higher torque only on hills. when you get off the hill or coming down it will switch back to 600 watt mode. Also this motor has almost zero drag when coasting or pedaling as a bike. When on a hill or slope this bike produces about 300% more torque than a normal 600 watt hub motor.

It will take you up any slope very quickly (up to 23 degree slope).
The motor will not burn out (1800 watts limited down to 1500 watts to prevent burnout) Also check our web site at www.busettii.com !"

[dogman]

Looks like some good bikes to me. Cut all range claims in half, or more, per ususal procedure. Don't let the ad copy doofus put you off the bikes, they look great, and the price is not really so bad if they do come with some shop sevice avaliable and are tested for QC before reselling.

48v 13 ah will take you a few miles less than my 48v 15 ah ping at 20 mph. No magic motor is going to rewrite the laws of physics and get you that much better range. Who cares how far you can pedal a heavy ebike with the motor off? My personal best with minimal pedaling at 20 mph is around 27 miles. So the cut the claimed range in half rule of thumb seems about right for this bike. A really aero bike like a recumbent could have much better range, but not an ordinary upright frame.

1500 watts going up a hill in a gearmotor will do the trick. But again, the ad doofus, Any decent dd hub with 800 watts going in easily climbs 10%. It is true, that 300 watt bikes struggle, but I've climbed 13% with a 300 w gearmotor.

I double dog dare them to come climb my test hill on a 110F day. If it passes, then they can claim the motor won't burn out. Should be easy, the hill is only 7% for a few miles.

Still looks like decent bikes to me, and less than 2 grand. Be interesting to see them take on the optibike on Pikes peak.

[grindz145]

Show me this so called world record range, and I will destroy it by a factor of 3. It's interested that they make their own batteries and motors, considering that they are clearly rebadged chinese designed products. I give them credit for cutting through all of the red tape and QC to get a product to America, but thats it.

[Ykick]

Business must be good as "reported" here - http://www.beverlyhillstimesmagazine.co ... ellantoni/

"Busettii Bikes is adding a second location in Beverly Hills, just south of The Beverly Center, to sell their amazing electric bikes. These fun bikes are really comfortable and can go 60 miles on a charge whether you pedal or not."

"The owner, Alan Partee told me he has invented the longest-lasting battery in the U.S. after living in Asia for many years."

Wow - in addition to incredible salesmanship a revolutionary inventor! Who'd 'thunk???

[grindz145]

Can we all just agree to never use the word invented again, unless one of the following circumstances arises, and a single person comes up with the design:
1. Teleportation
2. Time travel
3. World-food producing machine
4. No-fat no-carb spicy chicken sandwiches

I will consider adding up to 3 more entries, but there just aren't that many things left to "invent" Cripes.

[georgefromvt]

Busettii bike review. Bike looks ok, just wished I could take one for a test drive before I commit 2 grand.
http://electricbikereport.com/electric- ... #more-2075

[Ykick]

Busettii bike review. Bike looks ok, just wished I could take one for a test drive before I commit 2 grand.
http://electricbikereport.com/electric- ... #more-2075

As long as you're not expecting claimed range I suppose it's an okay "turnkey" deal. Although, the reviewer admits to never owning an eBike before.

You're wise to be careful and cautious though. Have you looked at Pedego bikes? I don't know 'em personally but they seem to have been around a while and they don't make as many outlandish claims about their product IMO.

I just have a hard time trusting a business willing to bend specs to the point these guys keep doing.

I'm no salesman so I expect to just be honest with people - explain you're using this motor, controller, battery, components and let the complete work speak for itself - not all this "sales engineering" nonsense that makes no difference in real world, day to day use.

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Can we all just agree to never use the word invented again, unless one of the following circumstances arises, and a single person comes up with the design:
1. Teleportation
2. Time travel
3. World-food producing machine
4. No-fat no-carb spicy chicken sandwiches

I will consider adding up to 3 more entries, but there just aren't that many things left to "invent" Cripes.

5. Where's my jetpak/hoverbike?

don't be shutting down the patent office just yet.
there's boatloads of blaktek like agrav that has yet 2b officially 'invented' b4 it's handed down to us 3rd tier users.

[docnjoj]

Hmmmmm...I wonder if I should patent my water to gasoline home conversion kit yet?
otherDoc

[LA Bike Fanatic]

I actually saw the staff at interbike in Las Vegas testing the Busettii Vortex Bike ! It was they not Busettii that made the claims for 86 miles in pedal assist mode medium. They posted it at the results baord for interbike testing. But here is a few things you should know about this BIKE !! It comes with 2 x 10 ah Deep cycle lithium soft pack strip cell batteries ( like the ones in the Tesla cars but MUCH smaller). so thats 38 x 20 ah = 760 Watt hours ! that is cheating a bit most bike don't have that much power. The motor only uses 250---500 watts but after running thru an actually 3 speed auto transmission the actual torque output almost is double of a normal hub mounted motor but using a smaller input of watts. At 500 watts input a hub motor usually puts out about 28 lbs. of torque. The Vortex is using a real transmission mounted together with the crank. At the same 500 watts its getting about 56 lbs. of torque instead of the normal 28. The battery, motor and controller are over spec and under regulated to creat a very cool running system with 80% heat waste than a typical motor.
Here is how they were testing all the bikes: steady 15 mph on a flat course with steady pedaling in pedal assist mode medium, 1" wide street performance tires at 95 lbs. of pressure. 160---170 lbs. well trained riders, very little wind at all and non-stop riding. Bikes like the A2B and E+ were even logging in 35 miles under these special testing conditions and they were carrying less than 760 watt hours of power. They also checked the motor and battery temps and all were up around 140 degrees except for the Vortex is was still at air temp. Heat is a big energy loss on most e-bikes. They got 86 miles out of the VORTEX BUT, it was the only bike with a worm drive 3 speed center mounted transmmision and using angled gearing. Other bikes could get the same results if they had a real transmission and carried 760 watt hours of power. Also deep cycle batteries always go about 30% farther than say a Lipo4 because of the low safety shut-off.
Really not so surprising , Thanks, PhD battery engineer

[amberwolf]

See this post:
viewtopic.php?p=545676#p545676
regarding at least one reason why you are probably seeing less heat. Keep in mind my numbers are all guesstimates based on the little data from your first post.

[rojitor]

I recall a member talking about those bikes ... Everything was broken in 6 months and he was redirected to the chinese company.. And they said warrant? What is that?

[dogman]

My range on 760wh is about 39 miles at 15 mph. But that is on real world road, some wind, some stops, etc. No hard pedaling, no aero tucks, panniers.

But bear in mind, a fitter cyclist pedaling an ebike at 15 mph might be using as little as 50 watts of motor power. So a theoretical 15 miles per 100wh even if using 100w.

In my mind, another example of how far a guy can muscle power an ebike really.

I'm not knocking the bike, just knocking test conditions that aren't very real world. I've never done a range test that didn't involve up and down at least 500' of vertical. And how many of us buy an ebike because we really crave riding around at 15 mph?

Come on, test the bike at 20 mph, on a course that climbs a few hills, and rides in all 4 directions to even out any effects from wind, and includes at least a few stop signs. Bet it comes out a lot closer to what all ebikes get. I'm not saying riding in the proper gear is not more efficeint than a hubmotor that isn't. Just saying that good gears don't magically get you a waiver on the laws of physics.

I'm sure it beats most hubmotors. I will give you that. But not by double. To test an ebike, you have to at least minimize the effect the rider has on range. The best way to do that, is to test at or above 20 mph, where rider input has less a percentage of total watts.

[grindz145]

Normal Li--ion batteries have a 50% safety shut off setting so you are not
allowed to use the other half of the stored charge. This is to avoid damage to
the battery caused by heat and low voltage. BYI soft pack strip cell
technology solves this problem by not having any metal structure inside the
battery which allows BYI to use 95% of all power in the battery every time.

Huh? Not true.

[Ykick]

Normal Li--ion batteries have a 50% safety shut off setting so you are not
allowed to use the other half of the stored charge. This is to avoid damage to
the battery caused by heat and low voltage. BYI soft pack strip cell
technology solves this problem by not having any metal structure inside the
battery which allows BYI to use 95% of all power in the battery every time.

Huh? Not true.

But it's from a PhD battery engineer...

[Paul_G]

This is the 86 mile range model with two battery's ....not the Big 50

http://www.busettii.com/vortex-mountain ... m6086.html

[dogman]

Yeah, I understood that the bike had 20 ah, or about 750wh of battery.

I just think it's pointless to make a range test at speeds where the riders input can skew the results spectacularly. A fit rider could easily do 40 miles using 0 wh for the first part of the test. That would take about 200w of rider effort. Easy for a racer to do for hours.

Do the math. 87 miles divided by 15 mph nonstop. 5.7333 hours of riding. Whoo hooo! My bike goes a long way too when run at 130 watts. Big deal, anybodies ebike goes a long way when used at 130w.

A much more realistic number is how far the bike would go at 300w, which may get you into the 20 mph ballpark. Gee wow, you get about 50 miles. If the motor really does make that much less heat, that's getting believable. Believable if the rider still pedals pretty hard, and has no wind, no hills, no stops, and tucks pretty aero. Put on regular clothes and panniers, and this bike will still get about what I get out of 750 wh. 20-35 miles depending on speed.

[Spacey]

Wow, check out all the bad reviews after the article. Pisses me off when businesses do that to customers.

http://electricbikereport.com/electric-bike-review-busettii-big-50-part-2/#more-2075

For the record and I mean real world....we get 26 to 30 miles engine only next to zero peddling on the A123 36v 11.5Ah Cellman packs with 250W motor.

This is with very hilly UK countryside roads with some quite strong winds.

[LA Bike Fanatic]

Very surprised to see so many people not taking the time to read all of the info at busettii.com and biyadii.com about the Vortex and the Big 50 by Busettii.
Every question raised on these pages is explained on one of the above sites that have been up for over a year now.
YES, Vortex does come with 2 batteries and YES, the 86 miles per charge includes both batteries used together as one. And Yes that 86 miles is for pedal assist mode MEDIUM power level with just steady moderate pedaling from the rider. The steady cruising speed is 15 mph which is pretty standard for testing e-bikes.
With no pedaling at all My Vortex will go 60 miles on one charge if you cruise at a steady 15 mph (2 x 38v 10ah on board =20 ah which is how it comes). Most companies are going by the standard of using a very flat loop course with very little wind 170 lbs. rider and properly inflated tires and adjusted brakes etc. Low roll resistance street tires. The Vortex has an actual built in 3 speed automatic transmission at the pedals and also on the rear wheel there is an internal NEXUS 3 speed shifter that the rider can shift at the handle bars. Therefore its a double internal shifter system with a total of 9 internal gears that all run directly off of the motor and chain drive. It is so rare to have things like a 3 speed auto transmission or even a Nexus internal hub on the back for an e-bike that I think its throwing people for loop here. It says clearly on Busettii 's page that its a 500 watt motor that can produce the torque of 1000 watt hub motor because of the extra torque generated by the built in trasmission.
However at 15 mph steady cruising speed the only question is how many amps does it need to hold the bike at a steady 15 mph (thats the only question that matters for any range testing). On the Vortex the answer is 5 amps at 38 volts. MOst E-bikes without a real transmission (i.e. hub motors) will be using about 9--10 amps to hold that steady cruising speed of about 15 mph. If you are using a steady 5 amps the Bike will cruise for 4 hours at 15 mph and reach about 60 miles on one charge with no pedaling at all. In pedal assist mode the rider is taking much of the stress and load off of the battery and the VORTEX can cruise at 15 mph in PAS mode medium using about 3 amps constant at 38 volts. AGAIN, the Vortex carries 20 ah at 38 volts. Since it can hold 15 mph in PAS medium using just 3 amps (which means rider is putting out 2 amps) The Vortex will cruise for about 5 hours and 40 minutes under these conditions which is exactly 86 miles.
The only amazing thing about all of this is the fact that the controller, motor and battery produces very little heat which is exactly what you need for high efficiency on an e-bike. I have tried out over 20 different E-bikes and I always carry my didgital thermometer ! Most e-bikes run very HOT ! Hot controller, Hott battery and even Hot motors. I usually get a reading of over 140 F off of all 3 components after riding just 20 minutes for most brands. My Busettii Vortex (I own 7 diff. E-bikes) got a reading of 92 F motor, 90 F degrees on the Battery and 93 F on the controller. The coolest readings I ever got from any e-bikes ( on this day the air was at 90 F).
I rarely see people on this site that even know the basics about E-bikes. The main thing that matters is how cool they can run and not waste energy thru heat. Also, some Lith. ion batteries from CHINA are so cheap that the safety shut -off is set to 50% or 40% to protect the cheap battery from burning out. Of course big Name brand batteries have a 20--30% safety shut off like A123, Sony, Samsung But when was the last time you saw those offered on an E-bike ???? try never. Having any kind of known brand name on an E-bike is already way better than those no brand no info batteries that come on 95% of all e-bikes on the market today. Thanks, LA E Bike Fanatic

[ambroseliao]

This is an old and tired claim from Busettii. The quality of their bikes is abysmal as attested to by a bike store owner who owned 12 of their bikes and every one of them failed dismally. See here:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=29822&hilit=busettii#p435685

Hey guys. I recently started a bike rental company in San Diego. http://bikefleets.com/. I attempted to create an electric bike fleet using Busettii. Busetti offered me a 3 year warranty and wholesaled me 12 bikes. It's been less than a year and my whole fleet has failed.

1. The rear wheels will fall apart. They come with wrong sized spokes and wrong lace pattern. The rims and spokes are Garbage as well.
2. The axles might spin in the dropouts. When the axles spin they will rip out the harness and split the aluminum dropouts. These bikes don't have proper torque arms.
3. The hub motors will fail. The spragg clutches will start clattering away within a few months.
4. Motor controls and battery chargers will randomly quit.
5. The batteries will go 50-350 cycles.
6. The battery is not a true 48 volt. The batteries were shorted a cell. The Chinese used 13 cells rather than 14. And the battery manufacture (SYL) closed their doors and changed their name.
6. The alloys of the components such as brake levers, brake calipers, stems, handlebars, racks and forks are the worst of the worst. I had a brake lever snap off in my hand and I also had a customer shear a stem. It snapped right at the neck.
7. The Bottom bracket bearings are misaligned.
8. The head sets are missing ball bearings.( A few of the ball bearing rings were even installed upside down)
9. Every bolt was cross threaded. Including the bolts for the motor control boxes, the racks, and clamps.


I replaced and reinforced every failed component until the motor and the batteries started to go, then I gave up. Busetti didn't warranty a single item.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXeBZT0f2_w

Also, folks with only 3 posts are very suspect of being trolls for the company. Lastly, your claiming that few folks here know the basics about ebikes is about as ludicrous as your claims that your bikes go 86 miles per charge!

[BATTERY BIKE RIDER]

86 mile range on the Vortex ? First of all I purchased my Vortex through the Busettii East Coast Group. I put <link removed> into my address bar and their East Coast Division came up. The person I talked to was very clear to tell me how the battery operates. How many times to cycle the battery before you get the maximum results....etc.
As to the 86 mile range.....we all know there are standards for "test conditions" , however, if you have a battery that can charge while riding even slightly downhill in a neutral position......HOW FAR CAN IT GO?? I will tell you this. I am disabled and have a ride I make that is mostly gradual downhill with a couple of short high level grades where I need full power to complete the loop.. I RODE THE BIKE THROUGH THIS LOOP FOR OVER 100 MILES BEFORE DECIDING TO CHANGE MY ROUTE IN ORDER TO RUN THE BATTERY COMPLETELY OUT OF POWER.......
I then simply plugged into my second battery in the lock box built for the battery. SO TO ARGUE OVER "TOTAL MILEAGE" IS BASICALLY IMPOSSIBLE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE LEGAL CONDITIONS NEEDED TO MAKE THE CLAIM !!!
What I DO KNOW FOR SURE is that I have NEVER seen or ridden any other electric bike that is even close to my Vortex. I weigh 275 and I needed a bike that could drag my fat butt from one place to another and THE ONLY ONE THAT COULD WAS BUSETTII.
So if you need a bike that you are certain will get you to your destination AND BACK....get a VORTEX WITH THE EXTRA BATTERY!
I cannot remember the East Coast web address, but you may still be able to put in <link removed> into your address bar and it may still take you there. I will check it myself.

[amberwolf]

Yummy. More probable spam. Could be real, but sounds spammy, especially with the double placement of the link in there, and the "100-mile" range and whatnot.

[ambroseliao]

Another first post glowing verification of not 86, but 100 miles now! It must be true then... NOT!

[Ypedal]

I"ve gone ahead and banned mr " BATTERY BIKE RIDER " .. that is sheer and utter bullcrap..

[ambroseliao]

Thanks Y, however, I bet he'll be back with another name shortly. He's a habitual reoffender...