Pikes Peak Race--Entering?

[liveforphysics]

That all looks correct.

It assumes 100% of the water gets successfully boiled to steam though. I had estimated I would need a couple gallons to provide all the cooling I could ever need, as I think I would be tough to spray it into the motor onto the windings and get more than about 20% of it actually where it needs to be. But I was just thinking a nozzle or two spraying into the holes on the sides of the motors end plates as they line up.

[Jethro56]

Great post Big Moose!

The coils are just magnets. Could an opposite charge be applied with an additive that would cause the mixture to be attracted to the coils or would that make the mixture able to conduct electricity? It's been a long time since I've studied this but it seems to me that a Piezo Electric Valve would chop the stream into charged droplets. Would a fuel injector do this?

[bigmoose]

Luke, I think with this scheme, we do not want a lot of ventilation on the motor. We want the liquid water to stay inside, and only the steam escape. Sort of like let the water get swirled around in and out and onto the windings. That will make a motor that won't go below 100 deg C but that should be OK, and better than the fried plasma balls that you and Patrick serve up regularly.

Might be able to center drill or EDM the solid axle with a feed hole so that water can be sprayed within the housing and not through a "vent hole".

PS: I might have been adding my PS to the original post while you were responding about it not being 100% efficient. I agree with your assessment.

I think you could atomize it with piezo's and/or plain spray nozzles. You might just have a nice swirling "mess" going on inside the housing that will distribute things "nicely". These are areas we may have to try in order to determine design parameters. I would start with KISS. (Keep It Simple...)

[Arlo1]

That all looks correct.

It assumes 100% of the water gets successfully boiled to steam though. I had estimated I would need a couple gallons to provide all the cooling I could ever need, as I think I would be tough to spray it into the motor onto the windings and get more than about 20% of it actually where it needs to be. But I was just thinking a nozzle or two spraying into the holes on the sides of the motors end plates as they line up.

Your pretty good at hiding certain lines spraying "stuff" in certain places.

[dogman]

I wonder if Reid Welch's oil filled underwater hubmotor Idea would work. Provides a non air materiel to conduct heat to the covers, which could then be evaporative cooled.

My death race lesson, with a hubmotor, and 3000+ watts, you do need more than holes in the cover. Shorter ride works. But this one is a long ride.

I have to agree, it would be in poor taste to show up with an ebike that isn't at least sort of street legal at the challenge. That's why I was looking at the race to the clouds at first.

[John in CR]

With liquid going in the motor what's the risk to the halls?

No doubt it would work, but I'm not sure it's needed. I blast up a 4 mile long 7-8%continuous grade at 33-35mph into a pretty good headwind, pulling about 5kw from the battery, with 4-5 miles of shallower grade leading up to the hill at higher speed but the same 5kw input, so it can definitely be looked at as continuous operation. That's with the motor sealed and stock pulling me and bike, a 375lb load up the mountain with a tire the ends up 20" diameter. I think a cyclist weight person could take my bike as-is up the PP run, but for good measure I'd throw on the ventilated motor that has an 18.5" wheel for good measure. The sealed one gets pretty warm on that run, but used to get hot on it with a lower power controller and only doing 20-22mph. The ventilated one barely gets warm on the same run.

Alan,
Good point. The little 2W 12V blowers I use to ventilate controllers run fine overspeeding on 16.5V , and for the motor I'd use a pair of 20W 32cfm centrifugal blowers used in datacenter racks. What's the solution at high altitude, just switch to a lower voltage so the motor doesn't overspeed, or is the fan motor fine and the same cooling just needs a lot more flow?

[Alan B]

The fans need larger blades for the same motor. And even then won't produce as much cooling. So for the same cooling a larger motor with even larger blades would be required.

[dogman]

Nothing from a 5 mile hill, or even a 10 mile hill is going to compare well with 25 miles, ending at 14,000 feet. So much longer, and higher. That's part of what makes this particular event so interesting. Not many paved roads above 9,000 feet unless you are in Colorado.

Best I could do around here would be a ride to 9,000 feet, and 10 miles long. Might be worth a drive to the mountains, and see if I can melt down a stock, unmodified 9c 2807 on it. Good excuse for a june road trip. It's about 150 miles away. It wouldn't be summer for me without at least one serious attempt to melt a motor. It would be interesting, to just take a 2807, put it on 48v 20 amps, and WOT it. See if it reaches an equilibrium temp, or just climbs till she melts. I only did 3 mile climbs in the motor meltdown two years ago. Last time I climbed a hill ten miles long, I was 3/4 throttling, and pedaling briskly.

All this talk about hill climbs makes me think of another juicy colorado road. The dirt 4x4 road from lake valley to silverton. Now that would make a great place to stage an electric bike race. Dirt, mud, rocks, insane grades, through a pass at 13,000 feet and then down hill to silverton for the finish. What a test that would be!

[Green Machine]

Dogman,

Why dont you ride up that 9000 feet 10 mile at full throttle without pedaling...then have someone drive you back down in a van while you keep a blow dryer pointed at the hub motor....

Then jump out of the van with your bike and ride back up again?

Actually maybe 1o miles 9000 feet with no pedaling might be harder than pikes with pedaling depending on wattage your running...at optibike wattage for example.

[Bike_on]

Nimbuzz' invite/challenge now two weeks old and still no definitive ES superstar entries, whether people or ebikes hubs. Yaaaaawn. I guess you all better enter your mid-drive, Opti-wannabees and mix it up. At least you all are smart enough to do the math and see it is near impossible with a hub designed ebike (anyone try 12" wheels??? )

[Alan B]

Maybe John in CR can dip one of his hubmotor rims in rubber and make a maximal torque monster. Or just seat a tube and tire on the flanges...

[John in CR]

No need to do that. I have a 3.5kw rated hubbie with a 13" rim designed for a 500lb load and 20%+ grades that would get the job done, but just wouldn't be fair. I also have a well ventilated 9C as a mid drive geared now for what is the equivalent of running it in a 13.5" diameter wheel. With the 150V controller I have connected and pack voltage at 130V, it's geared to hit peak power right around 30mph, and could do the climb easily.

Anyone have an altitude profile of the run. I'd like to see at what altitude are the steepest grades. What about the road surface and curves? I've been assuming the curves can be taken at 30mph to avoid repeated accelerations. Slowing down for curves would have a huge effect on proper planning.

[remf]

Anyone have an altitude profile of the run. I'd like to see at what altitude are the steepest grades. What about the road surface and curves? I've been assuming the curves can be taken at 30mph to avoid repeated accelerations. Slowing down for curves would have a huge effect on proper planning.

These give you a good idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y3OFf0ArU

[full-throttle]

Seems Stealth Electric Bikes will be there.

"Stealth Electric Bikes USA will be sending riders from the U.S. & Australia to the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb in June and plans on sending riders to the Pikes Peak Challenge at the interbike conference in Las Vegas, September 14th through 16th."

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but SE Aus is not entering this year. I was very interested in seeing how'd they go, but a sudden surge of orders has been given a priority.

[Green Machine]

Omg...happy mothers day. Its a good time to be an ebiker and be alive.

Believe it or not Physics joined the opti group....and i doubt its because he is interested in buying an opti. Here is what i just posted over there the only person so far to respond to physics challege...also pasted below:
http://groups.google.com/group/optibike ... c055dd751c

greenmachines wrote:

Ok this silence is deafening...

I don't understand with all your guys's chatter, banter, mouthing off etc. about no way a hubmotor will finish this race...

that someone doesnt offer a "gentleman's bet" of like 2k or something that physics can't do what he says...and finish in half the time of the quickest opti. I cant imagine physics backing down if someone offering him such a bet. I can say this if physics makes the bet, he is good for it...i can vouch that he is indeed honorable...he might be bluffing however...but that may never be known if you guys just sit on your hands scared.

So why not make this interesting and one of you gentlemans put some money up? If you can spend 12k on a bike....you can put 2k on a bet and amp up the excitement of this entire event. This seems like a good way to get some of your investment back you put into your opti...and will have a great story here on the groups for years....and it will make your wine taste that much better at the top...that you fought off the endless sphere beast and took his money.

I actually think considering all that can go wrong in a race like this....depending on the parameters of the bet (for example does it have to be a stock opti, is physics only allowed to enter one bike) this sounds like a very good bet for the opti guys. Heck i would give it %50 that whatever physics brings explodes in the first 10 miles. Heck if i was still an opti owner i would 100 percent make a bet with physics right now...and show up on my own opti to help beat him.

As your opti advisor and former team member..i think this is the point someone should offer a bet just to see how serious physics is. Maybe he is just bluffing? This is a opportunity that should not be passed.

Wouldnt it be worth 2k just to make this event one of the most watched electric hill events of all time on two different forums?

Or you can just remain silent...which would speak volumes on where your real hearts are.

I really hate to be a rabble rouser here....but i just want to emphasize the weight of physics offer....

How could you guys just let pass this golden opportunity? You guys already passed 2 very good bets from me...atleast one i know i would have lost....#1 i bet 1k that a hub motor would win this race....silence...#2 i made the 1k bet that an ego vehicle would beat an opti if you guys would show to my house in SF within 3 days...silence....

In the spirits of mother day, i am posting a pic of the ego vehicle you bowed down too. I won by none of you even considering my bet.

Its time for the opti warriors to step up....and take on one of these bets...because honestly opti has a great chance of winning...i think an opti would have crushed me ego for example...you guys totally lost by chicken hearting out...

Hats off to physics for coming over here and making such an offer. Its about time someone with cajones showed up on this group. Lets inject some excitement and some cash into this event....and see if physics is for real.

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Physics wrote:
On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 8:50 PM, Liveforphysics <liveforphysics@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for the welcome. As I type this, I'm finishing the battery
for a TTGPX bike, and working on the bracket design to put an Agni
(running on 100v 650amps) on a little BMX with a 18" extended swing
arm for a hill climb event.

I'm frankly a little put-off by all hubmotors, but if it were to be
worth my while, I would come dominate the event. It doesn't sound like
its a race though if I'm understanding correctly?

Are there any incentives or motivation if I came with a hubmotor
bicycle and cut the fastest Optibike time up the peak in half?

[Nimbuzz]

When the green flag drops the BS stops.

[AussieJester]

When the green flag drops the BS stops.

and another says..."Put your money where your mouth is"

What i do find mildly amusing about this entire thread is Opti owners only want
a frock erm "hub" motor in the race against them, yet haha the Opti is a mid drive
using gears. Is a geared frock "allowed" to compete? im sure a 50v MAC motor
would be easily quick enough to beat the opti, My buddy Matt.P has one it climbs
the same hills my rc setup does with ease, albeit a 1/4 slower LoL... Funny thread
anywayz, i would definitely take Luke up on his bet and also extremegreenmachine on Luke
blowing up within 10miles, actually thats generous i would say 5 miles, as to date
Lukes furthest effort on a non-frock bike is 3 miles before plasma and smoke and that was on
relatively flat ground ROFLMAO... good luck all...

kiM

[MadScientist]

What i do find mildly amusing about this entire thread is Opti owners only want
a frock erm "hub" motor in the race against them, yet haha the Opti is a mid drive
using gears.

It would be funnier if it were true.

I can't speak for all Optibike owners, but those of us who participate in the Google group are genuinely enthusiastic about all sorts of ebike developments. One of us (me) is even sponsoring a competing bike using Ron Rocha's chain puller drive. I'm rooting for Josh, the bike's builder/rider who has both the technical chops and MTB racing background to be a contender, but I won't be disappointed if Opti gets to the summit first. Either way, I win! Unless you have a killer hub motor, that is.

[remf]

What i do find mildly amusing about this entire thread is Opti owners only want
a frock erm "hub" motor in the race against them, yet haha the Opti is a mid drive
using gears.

It would be funnier if it were true.

I can't speak for all Optibike owners, but those of us who participate in the Google group are genuinely enthusiastic about all sorts of ebike developments. One of us (me) is even sponsoring a competing bike using Ron Rocha's chain puller drive. I'm rooting for Josh, the bike's builder/rider who has both the technical chops and MTB racing background to be a contender, but I won't be disappointed if Opti gets to the summit first. Either way, I win! Unless you have a killer hub motor, that is.

I definitely agree on this....RC, chain drive, friction drive, hub, whatever. Come one, come all. It's a fun ride. Now if the results were broken down into weight & power classifications, that would make it really interesting. My question to the naysayers, though I'm not quite sure who they are now - what should be the limit? 750W road legal? 60 pounds? No? Then what?

BTW what's a frock? I thought it was an article of clothing? 'Scuse my ignorance.

[Evoforce]

Oh boy, here we go again AJ! You explain it to remf.

[dogman]

I have heard that other hubmotor ebikes rode last year, but didn't make the top. My assumption is many had inadequate 36v 10 ah batteries. But did any bring enough battery to melt a motor? In most cases with a frock, pull 800 watts continuous with a 10 ah battery and you will drain the pack before the motor melts.

Frock motor is AJ's slang for a hubmotor. This thread has been a hoot.

[Green Machine]

Dogman,

That case about hub motors attempting and failing has been completely overblown and overstated.

The point was last year there were only 6 contestants...2 being optibikes. The 2 hub motors were bmc's (geared hub). I ride bmc's and know exactly how bad they are for this kind of climb. I roasted 5 bmcs in one year in small hill climbing situations. In fact, just roasted a bmc last night while attempting a small hill climb. Living in san francisco we have our share of hills...and bmc frankly is not living up to the grade. The only real success we have had with bmc hubs on the hills in san francisco is a 600w torque motor with a 35 amp controller dialed down to 20amps...thats the only way they will put up with climbing..and i am sure not a serious climb up pikes. The small motor with gears is simply too fragile.

Now according to the optigroups a stealth from stealth usa apparently made the climb with no problem, a stealth has a dd crytallite 5304. If that is true that is a great reference point when it comes to hubbies and the pikes.

I am thinking there are many crystallites, and other dd's that could make that climb very easily..the only question is how fast. If a dd hub is modified for this race with any kind of cooling...water or air..my guess is completing the race would be a cinch...

[Alan B]

It would be excellent to have some real data. Accurate, firsthand info. What hubmotors, how configured, battery, system weight, and what happened.

[dogman]

Yeah, I never heard it said hubmotors melted, just that they didn't get to the very top. My assumption is that some just ran down their batteries. I'm pretty sure though, that more than 1000 watts continuous would get pretty hot by 24 miles.

[Green Machine]

Well it turns out the fact that a stealth bomber climbed peaks on an off race day was just a false rumor....so no hub motor has scaled pikes as of yet...nothing documented.