Back in the Saddle, 'Bent Mid-drive project!!

[amberwolf]

Some pics I meant to post in the earlier post, but got distracted as Mdd0127 and Evoforce showed up for a ride and chat day.
viewtopic.php?p=513939#p513939

Complete chainline

DSC05603.JPG (73.75 KiB) Viewed 1433 times

load-end sprocket and bearings, appears to include a sprag-clutch freewheel.

DSC05605.JPG (57.86 KiB) Viewed 1433 times

load-end opposite side, has a two-wire (reed?) speed sensor unit that can be easily removed and used on something else (ebike/etc.

DSC05606.JPG (49.24 KiB) Viewed 1433 times

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[TopCat]

Hi Li-ghtcycle,

I have just finshed reading throught your whole thread -(this time). I had flicked through it a while back but now im on the lookout for a new motor for my chopper I read it through.

My Schwinn Spoiler has a similar laid back riding postition to your bike. Not great on the butt for peddeling


As I read through your thread I got more and more interested in the motor you bought. I have already burnt out 2 Unite motors due to not gearing them - a 36V 500W (not quite burnt out but close) and a new 3 week old 36V 1000W that smoked like crazy and stopped working while doing a bench test on Sunday

Id like to do about 30mph crusing speed, so im tossed up between the Golden 800W like yours...
(better built than the Unite motors I think?)


...or this

Mars ME0201013001 Brushless DC motor, 100 cont amps 24-48v DC.


Slightly Used (<10 hours) MARS ME0201013001 Brushless DC Motor.

NOTES:
This motors fan cover is missing.
The connector on the wire from the motor has been cut off
Slight score marks to the shaft.

Other than the above it is a happy running bargain! It was removed from an electric go-kart project hence the above issues.

Designed for long life. No brush maintenance. The motor is 90% efficient at voltages between 24 to 48 VDC. Continuous current of 100 amps at 48 VDC. This is a 3-phase, Y-connected Permanent Magnet Syncronous Motor with an axial air gap.
20 turns per phase Line to Line resistance of 0.013 ohms Motor weight of 22 pounds.

I think both motors weight in around the same, 20 or so pounds, which is the killer plus I think? a controller for the Mars would be more expensive. Also the Mars maybe slightly to big to fit in the gap in front of my rear wheel.
You mentioned during your post's that you have a Lyen controller for your motor but you never mentioned what size/type/price? Was it easy (for a dummy to program/setup).

Anyway, enough of my babbling. Congrats on a neat build Your Evgrin must be a wrap around by now

Regards
Tom

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hi Li-ghtcycle,

I have just finshed reading throught your whole thread -(this time). I had flicked through it a while back but now im on the lookout for a new motor for my chopper I read it through.

My Schwinn Spoiler has a similar laid back riding postition to your bike. Not great on the butt for peddeling


As I read through your thread I got more and more interested in the motor you bought. I have already burnt out 2 Unite motors due to not gearing them - a 36V 500W (not quite burnt out but close) and a new 3 week old 36V 1000W that smoked like crazy and stopped working while doing a bench test on Sunday

Id like to do about 30mph crusing speed, so im tossed up between the Golden 800W like yours...
(better built than the Unite motors I think?)


...or this

Mars ME0201013001 Brushless DC motor, 100 cont amps 24-48v DC.


Slightly Used (<10 hours) MARS ME0201013001 Brushless DC Motor.

NOTES:
This motors fan cover is missing.
The connector on the wire from the motor has been cut off
Slight score marks to the shaft.

Other than the above it is a happy running bargain! It was removed from an electric go-kart project hence the above issues.

Designed for long life. No brush maintenance. The motor is 90% efficient at voltages between 24 to 48 VDC. Continuous current of 100 amps at 48 VDC. This is a 3-phase, Y-connected Permanent Magnet Syncronous Motor with an axial air gap.
20 turns per phase Line to Line resistance of 0.013 ohms Motor weight of 22 pounds.

I think both motors weight in around the same, 20 or so pounds, which is the killer plus I think? a controller for the Mars would be more expensive. Also the Mars maybe slightly to big to fit in the gap in front of my rear wheel.
You mentioned during your post's that you have a Lyen controller for your motor but you never mentioned what size/type/price? Was it easy (for a dummy to program/setup).

Anyway, enough of my babbling. Congrats on a neat build Your Evgrin must be a wrap around by now

Regards
Tom

Heya Tom!

I'm VERY happy with the Golden Motor's performance so far but I haven't had a chance to run it at higher voltage than 12S (48V approx) on 25 - 50C Turnigy Nano Techs (I specify the battery since lower C-Rate packs would sag tons more) and hope in the near future to try it at 18S (72V) but time and money haven't allowed it yet.

I really like that Mars! What is the Kv on it? The Golden Motor is about 27 RPM per volt IIRC. That is one of the nice things about it since it will run pretty low RPM's for even standard voltages like 48V and not require too much reduction.

I am currently using a Lyen 18 Fet, and it runs ICE cold, even when the motor gets relatively hot, just warm enough to keep you from wanting to hold your hand there constantly after going up the big, long hill here.

It's quite nice when it's cold to warm your hands on it!

I have never seen it get hot enough to worry me too much or degrade the performance significantly, even on a 12% + grade, however, it will slow down to about 12 MPH at my current voltage & gearing on that steep of a hill, and doesn't like to climb all by itself over about 7 MPH on that same grade, however, I believe when I get it up to 72V and use a jack-shaft to get reasonable reduction, I think it will climb even better.

My next goal is to have a 72V 36 AH pack, but that's a pretty spendy battery, so it will have to wait until the summer or so unless business picks up significantly, I'm gonna have to keep using the 48V 18 AH pack I have now. Unfortunately my 4S packs are not doing as well as my 6S packs, looks like I will have to replace them soon (they take 4X as long to balance as the 6S packs! )

Let us know how that Mars works out for ya! How much are ya getting it for?

Looks like it should handle tons of power with out smoking.

[TopCat]

Let us know how that Mars works out for ya! How much are ya getting it for?

Looks like it should handle tons of power with out smoking.

Humm!!!
Im now not to sure about the Mars motor! I can get it for around £185 but as mentioned if has bits missing - fan cover/wire connector. I cant find any dimensions on it but I think it would be to big to fit in my bike from the looks of it? Also a used Kelly controller KBL72601B 24-72V 600 Amp BLDC Controller with Regen that the guy is selling would cost £300. Im not sure i'd like to take the chance that something wouldn't work, plus it would probably take me a year studying at collage or so to figure out how set it up

Im more of a fan of simple machanics (the simpiler the better) - buy a motor/chain/sprockets. Bolt then altogether, fire up the throttle and were off.

I may still go with the 800w Goldenmotor. Thats asumming it has enough power to propel my heavy bike along.
There were a few of use on the forums that were looking to get a BMC 1500 or 2000 watt motors from http://www.thesuperkids.com/15wabmcbrmos.html but they are sold out and are not replying to any members emails who have asked about there motors?

I'll keep browsing and see if anything else pops up.

Regards
Tom

[LI-ghtcycle]

Let us know how that Mars works out for ya! How much are ya getting it for?

Looks like it should handle tons of power with out smoking.

Humm!!!
Im now not to sure about the Mars motor! I can get it for around £185 but as mentioned if has bits missing - fan cover/wire connector. I cant find any dimensions on it but I think it would be to big to fit in my bike from the looks of it? Also a used Kelly controller KBL72601B 24-72V 600 Amp BLDC Controller with Regen that the guy is selling would cost £300. Im not sure i'd like to take the chance that something wouldn't work, plus it would probably take me a year studying at collage or so to figure out how set it up

Im more of a fan of simple machanics (the simpiler the better) - buy a motor/chain/sprockets. Bolt then altogether, fire up the throttle and were off.

I may still go with the 800w Goldenmotor. Thats asumming it has enough power to propel my heavy bike along.
There were a few of use on the forums that were looking to get a BMC 1500 or 2000 watt motors from http://www.thesuperkids.com/15wabmcbrmos.html but they are sold out and are not replying to any members emails who have asked about there motors?

I'll keep browsing and see if anything else pops up.

Regards
Tom

Yikes!

I had no idea it would require that much to get it up and running, I wonder if you might also want to consider this motor from GM:



http://www.goldenmotor.com/

It's considerably more expensive, but if your needing to move a heavier load than the average, it might be well worth it.

At 24.2 lbs (11 Kg) it's not light, but not much heavier than the one I have. Just be sure to order the 500W motor since they always ship the 800W anyway, so you get it for the cheaper price!

And as always, go one motor size up from what you need (this one can be either water or fan cooled too! ) and you will usually be happiest, just realize you will most likely need a jack-shaft to get enough reduction to have an effective reduction to be able to climb hills too, unless you plan on just pouring amps through it and the efficiency be damned!

I have now ordered the 650W and the 500W, and it appears that they have been superceded by the 800W because that is all you end up getting shipped to ya. Not a bad thing really, just a good thing to know!

I ordered first directly from China though the website, and it took longer than it should to ship, but then the second one came in a couple weeks IIRC, and it's been a great motor for my application.

Depending on how much pedaling you are going to do, you might consider using the 800W motor at 72V if you're going to use it and do little pedaling, I pedal along with mine, but that is what I got it for.

I still plan on taking mine up to 72V eventually, but just not enough cash at the moment.

[TopCat]

To late on the Mars motor. Someone must have made him an offer and it sold for £125.

How do you order from Goldenmotors? I only see a Paypal link to buy the 800w motor. I cant findany order form on there site to add your address etc.

The 800w like yours will cost me about $215 = £140. A lot cheaper than that big HPM-5000B that you listed. I'd also haveto get a Leyn controller. ....and yes (this time i'll jackshaft) the motor rather than trying to run it straight to the wheel and burn it out. I only have 6 batts linked in parallel and series to give me a 36v 30amp set. Would thisbe enought to run the 800w motor?
If not then its yet more for batts.

One thing Ive noticed with Ebikes is you need a bottomless money pit to get and keep going

Regards
Tom

[LI-ghtcycle]

To late on the Mars motor. Someone must have made him an offer and it sold for £125.

How do you order from Goldenmotors? I only see a Paypal link to buy the 800w motor. I cant findany order form on there site to add your address etc.

The 800w like yours will cost me about $215 = £140. A lot cheaper than that big HPM-5000B that you listed. I'd also haveto get a Leyn controller. ....and yes (this time i'll jackshaft) the motor rather than trying to run it straight to the wheel and burn it out. I only have 6 batts linked in parallel and series to give me a 36v 30amp set. Would thisbe enought to run the 800w motor?
If not then its yet more for batts.

One thing Ive noticed with Ebikes is you need a bottomless money pit to get and keep going

Regards
Tom

What battery chemistry are you using?

I have found that the 800W actually works pretty well at even just 8S (32V ) and according to their data sheet, it will make maximum power at 41V, so if you are using LiPo, and run 10S ( you would be in the perfect power range for a sub 48V set-up.

If you're running SLA, or low c-rate Ping or even something like a lower end 15 - 20C LiPo, you might notice too much sag, and if that is the case, I would strongly recommend 12S LiPo or up-grading to 48V if using a different chemistry like SLA or Ni-Cad.

I REALLY like the Turnigy Nano Tech packs, but you can have good results with some of the 20C Turnigy packs, just probably not as much life-span since they would be worked harder.

I use the 25 - 50C Nano Tech's so they are the less expensive of the Nano Tech's, and if I had it to do over again, I would only use the 6S packs as the 4S packs seem to have too many connectors and wires to charge as well as the 6S packs, it takes no longer than about 20 - 30 min for my two 6S packs to fully charge and balance from about a 20% DoD, yet the same capacity packs in the 4S (3 series to make 12S) take on average 3 times that long to do a full balance when charged in an 8S group, also buying the 6S packs are more cost effective than the 4S.

Anyhow, I would generally say that most of the motors we use are happier at 48ish volts. Even though the max sub 48V voltage for the 800W is listed at 41V, it takes a hit in efficiency below 41V, and accounting for sag, and especially cold weather this time of year, the extra few volts will help keep the sag from effecting you too much.

Hope this helps, it's about 1:00 AM here, so I better go to sleep, good luck!

P.S. be sure to adjust for about 25 amps at 41V to get max performance. Much more at that voltage will just be wasted at heat unless you of course increase to a much higher voltage like say 72V, and then you might see more ability to put out power, but then you might have to beef up the phase wires unless of course you limit total watts to less than 1200 or so.

P.P.S. I just used the paypal link to order, but you can call Golden Motors Canada or possibly another dealer that is in your area, perhaps in England if not Scotland?

[neptronix]

Hey li-ghtcycle, have you ever taken this motor apart? i am thinking about buying one and running it at high volts, like 24S. Wanted to see if it had a low pole count or what. If you could crack the back of the motor and show us it's butt, i'd be thankful

[neptronix]

http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4432.5

By the way, you did get a 650W motor. It's just that they put it in the 800W motor case now, pretty deceiving! The 800w motor is 5 pounds heavier by the way..!!

( i had a motor similar to the HPM-5000B, the Motenergy 4201... it was way too much motor.. 22-24lbs.. i felt my mortality speaking to me telling me to not use it, so i got rid of it, lol.

Anyway i am curious to see the inside of that motor..!!

[neptronix]

BTW i have done some bench racing on the 800W motor. Seems that it can make as much power as the Crystalyte 53xx, if not more..

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=45443

[LI-ghtcycle]

Heya Neptronix!

I can try opening the back of the motor later this week (really tired, not sure I will get to it till next week end, 12 - 14 hr school days really take their toll) so you can have an idea, I don't know if you want to go quite that high, but I'd love to try something along the line of 72V first, so around 20S LiPo, but if you can run 24, let me know!

I should be able to have pics for you end this week, on Saturday depending on how easy it is to open.

[sendler2112]

Great thread. I have a Performer dual suspended 26" recumbent to build as an electric commuter and am weighing the options of a Clyte 3540 rear vs mid drive. I have an idler midway back already so this would seem a good place to mount a motor. The rear suspension would work better without the added mass of a hub motor and using the gearing will be more efficient on the hills. My main concern would be chain wear on a rear shifting 9 speed and even at 5:1 in the front, I would have to run the motor at 500 rpm if I want to pedal. Can Goldenmotor wind the 800 Watt motor for efficiency at 500 rpm?
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I will also add a fairing. Something like this.
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[LI-ghtcycle]

Great thread. I have a Performer dual suspended 26" recumbent to build as an electric commuter and am weighing the options of a Clyte 3540 rear vs mid drive. I have an idler midway back already so this would seem a good place to mount a motor. The rear suspension would work better without the added mass of a hub motor and using the gearing will be more efficient on the hills. My main concern would be chain wear on a rear shifting 9 speed and even at 5:1 in the front, I would have to run the motor at 500 rpm if I want to pedal. Can Goldenmotor wind the 800 Watt motor for efficiency at 500 rpm?
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I will also add a fairing. Something like this.
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The BLDC Trike Motor BLT-800 spins at approximately 1100 RPM at 41.666V at it's designed "efficiency speed" (to get the RPM down you will need some form of single stage reduction to get close to your target RPM) and depending on your target speed, you're going to need to use between a 4 to 7 : 1 reduction.

Personally I gear mine for slower more bicycle appropriate speeds since I plan on using it on bicycle paths and lanes most of the time, and just need the power for maximum distance and torque (hill climbing) when I am unable to pedal as much.

One thing also to note, the faster the motor RPM, generally the better the efficiency, and greater torque potential, thus the "volt up, gear down" adage. The higher volts also allow for less amps being used which generally means less heat for the same wattage.

Any time you're going to introduce motor stress on a bicycle drive-train and especially something that is going to have the bike traveling faster than it would be by pedaling, you are going into unexplored territory since the bicycle components were never designed for this, and typically the higher end "weight weenie" ultra light bicycle components aren't going to be ideal for this, the middle of the road and specifically designed "touring" or cargo bike rated equipment is what you want.

I use the NuVinci rear hub CVPT transmissions for this reason. It's designed to take a lot more torque and has been proven to take up to 9 HP and around 50 Ft/Lbs continuous load (Model N171B, the newer N360 hasn't seen such widespread use yet to confirm) with out any wear or damage, if you exceed the 9 HP for example, it just starts to slip internally acting as a "clutch" and even those with gas powered bicycles have done this with out causing a failure, just discoloring of the internal fluid with this extreme use, and no damage.

I have also talked with local shops in Portland, OR and have yet to find a single shop who has had to send off one of these hubs for service internally, any service or repair has always been related to the cabling going to the hub and usually damage from falling on the shift rod on the right side that can be easily protected from falling/crash damage. Simply put, I use them because they are the most proven and reliable rear hubs/transmission available. Typical bicycle derailleurs and cassettes are designed with weight and efficiency as primary concerns, not strength, and they aren't designed to work with the kind of power this motor or any other that will put 1000 Watts+ continuous power, and will wear out bicycle chains as well.

First off, what kind of speeds are you planing on going?

Any weight you will have on the bike for cargo, or will this strictly be a performance machine?

I have a really nasty long steep hill where I live (on top of course, so any trip longer than 2 -3 miles means going down then back up it) and most of the time if I can't get things locally, it means climbing it to go to town.

This motor isn't pulling as hard as I would like for a cargo bike's purpose, unless you have a lot of your own leg power to contribute on the hills.

It will climb them under protest on it's own, but on the really steep parts you will have to watch the heat and give it a rest after about 1 mile of steady 5%+ grade climbs running at about 1100 Watts (44V or 12S Turnigy 25-50c Nano Tech LiPo at around 25 Amps), and it keeps this efficiency pretty steady, but it has less torque than my Amped Bikes 9 x 7 DD hub motor.

I'm hopefully going to be able to test this motor soon with some active cooling (copper tube "jacket" around motor with a PC liquid cooling system and push the volts closer to 60 - 72V) but this won't happen sooner than my finishing my current Cruiser E-Bike project which is using the same motor.

I'm going to have to re-gear and have some sprockets made to accomplish this.

One thing I would recommend avoiding is the long run of #25 chain as you see in this build, it's just too long a run for that small of chain.

I'm going to be testing #35 chain next, it's commonly used in industrial applications (manufacturing) and the chain can be bought at most local hardware stores in a pinch (I would use higher grade chain than you will find at the HW store) and my local McGuire Bearing sells the sprockets/cogs very reasonably priced.

I think it will do better handling the loads of the motor.

I hesitate to advise using the bicycle gearing with any motor because it's difficult to say how well it will work unless you were to go with a fairly low powered system, how well it will shift and wear using the power through the bicycle drive-train, and usually freewheels are the weakest link.

I'm not sure which model of Performance Recumbent you are using?

It's worth noting that generally anything that is designed to be extra lightweight and is optimal for bicycle applications will not always be best in an E-Bike.

If you're using a light weight Aluminum frame, be extra cautious, the extra stresses will be hardest on your drop-outs and you will have to beef them up even with a steel frame most cases with some torque plates of significantly hardened steel, or better yet, something like the clamping drop-outs that John in CR uses (This applies to mid-drives too since you will still be putting considerable torque to the rear wheel, see the damaged axle flats on my NuVinci in this post for reference, and the suspension makes things more difficult with a mid-drive since you now have chain growth issues to contend with.

I would lean towards a mid-drive that is mounted on the bottom side of your rear swing arm just to the rear of the pivot to minimize unsprung weight, and hopefully that is a Steel or Titanium frame rather than aluminum?

If it is Aluminum, it's not impossible, just remember Aluminum will tend to crack where the other two will bend first and give a little warning before failure, and just try to keep things as simple as possible.

If you do put the mid-drive under the seat, look into a chain guide/tensioner like Down Hill bikes use to account for chain growth, it will probably need to be mounted very near the pivot or on the rear swing arm.

Also note that putting power to the motor at the mid-point will tend to compress the rear suspension under throttle.

From looking at their site, it would seem you have a Goal-X?

[sendler2112]

That is a photo of a Goal although I actually have the rear suspended 26" high racer and have a front fork that should fit the head tube to suspend the front. The rear is 9 speed with an XT derailleur. Pro bike racers can average 450 Watts for an hour and sprint at 1500 watts for 90 seconds. These guys are super human. And the bikes seem to take it pretty well. The only reason for me to even consider a mid drive is to shift the motor gearing on the rear cassette and save the unsprung weight. Otherwise I would just go with a hub motor. The smallest cog you ever get on the motor is an 11. The 11- 34 on the rear gives a speed range of 13 mph to 38 mph at 500 rpm. If I put a giant, 55T chain ring on the front, I can pedal at 100 rpm when the motor is at 500. Maybe the numbers won't add up for mid drive. Additional jack shafts on both ends are out. I would just go with a hub motor. My goal is a commuter with 40mph average speed, 40 mile range, using 40Wh per mile. I thought I was reading that you were impressed with the power output of the motor at 36v, comparing it to a Crystalyte, but now it seems like you are having doubts that it is strong enough for climbing?

[sendler2112]

I guess it would be pretty easy to knock together a half free wheeling jack shaft out of a bicycle rear wheel hub to mount on the bracket just in front of the mid drive motor. This would let the pedals freewheel and I could then play with the in and out gears to get the motor at 1000 rpm while the crank is at a leisurely 80 with the stock 53T while topping out at 40 mph. This would save me from buying the 56T chainring I would need if using a hub drive. No regen with a rear derailleur set up though. The middle ring in the front would then be digging up the hills at 100 rpm with the motor at 900 and the small ring still useful with the motor at 700 and crawling along at 10 mph.

[LI-ghtcycle]

I guess it would be pretty easy to knock together a half free wheeling jack shaft out of a bicycle rear wheel hub to mount on the bracket just in front of the mid drive motor. This would let the pedals freewheel and I could then play with the in and out gears to get the motor at 1000 rpm while the crank is at a leisurely 80 with the stock 53T while topping out at 40 mph. This would save me from buying the 56T chainring I would need if using a hub drive. No regen with a rear derailleur set up though. The middle ring in the front would then be digging up the hills at 100 rpm with the motor at 900 and the small ring still useful with the motor at 700 and crawling along at 10 mph.

Yeah, a jack-shaft is a great way to reduce motor RPM, the motor I am using with this bike now that it is a much heavier cargo bike isn't able to do quite as well when it was just transportation, not to say that it wouldn't for a lighter set-up (I will be trying this out with the cruiser bike I am building now) and should be ok for most people with average hills, but I live on a very long and pretty steep hill, so I will withhold judgement until I can see how it performs with this cruiser which will be lighter than my recumbent cargo bike.

My cargo bike will be hauling around 100 lbs of cargo, and has probably 20 - 30 lbs of gear in tools and such, so rounding up to say 150 lbs of payload that I would have in a trailer normally, attempting to transfer that to side panniers along with the tail box I built is a bit more demanding than my original design.