Back in the Saddle, 'Bent Mid-drive project!!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Hi LI,

this is a cool looking project and well executed

The stickers say 650W but the aspect and apearance of the motor mounts from this pic:



make it look more like the 800W. Do the dimensions of the motor you have agree with the dimensions for the 650W?

Just curious, maybe you got more watts for you buck after the Golden shipping mess up.

Simon.

Holy @E$@#$~!!

You're right! I never occurred to me to check the length since I was so focused on the width for fitting purposes, and you know what, the "normal trike" they referred to must mean to them more of a "pedicab" trike, and this motor is the brushless big brother to the pedicab motors I was working on!

No wonder it's so gawd awfully heavy! The motor they were supposed to send is just under 15 lbs, this one is just under 20lbs!

Well, now my calculations are even further out of whack, this baby is gonna be geared for 50 MPH!

Too bad I won't be pushing it with enough juice for that kind of speed, might have to try it once though, just to see!

P.S. Thank you for the kind words, and your keep eye! I hope to have less or maybe even no need for any cooling with the extra 5lbs of copper!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Wow, just a seat of the pants guess, but sure enough, I ran the gear calc, and it comes to 49.6 MPH in max overdrive of the NuVinci, unfortunately, this motor also makes less torque than the 650W (I'm building a cargo/touring bike, I want maximum torque) but it might work ok, I'm going to ask GM what it will take to get me the motor I ordered, and I'm guessing they will want another $169 .... but I think I will check with the local GM dealer first, they might have a motor similar in stock that I can actually look at.

Thanks again for pointing out the size of the motor! Not sure how I managed to miss that, maybe because I was just so happy to get a motor at all after such a long wait.

[LI-ghtcycle]

OH! I almost forgot, I was messing with the motor to see how well it spins, and the pedals don't really have more drag on them than a DD hub motor, and then I couldn't turn them at all!!

NuVinci tells me that my N171B (Model just prior to the newest N360) 350% hub will freewheel internally, and the fact that phase wires being crossed locked it up tells me different, either that, or it freewheels very poorly and under a ton of resistance, which is not going to be bad at all if I am using regen braking.

Maybe at speed it won't have as dramatic effect, but I'm really hoping it does and I will have the regen braking I was designing this project for.

[Rassy]

Looking good LI. Hope that larger faster motor works out ok, sounds like a real pain to get the one you were after.

Sitting on the seat, it just barely bottoms out and touches the motor, not good!

At least the motor can isn't spinning like my 9C does, which is mounted in about the same position.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Looking good LI. Hope that larger faster motor works out ok, sounds like a real pain to get the one you were after.

Sitting on the seat, it just barely bottoms out and touches the motor, not good!

At least the motor can isn't spinning like my 9C does, which is mounted in about the same position.

True! I think I have solved that issue now, and I didn't even have to remove the bracket! I removed the fender mount, slid back the mounts as far as possible, and then drilled and tapped a hole into the back and attached the fender, now I have a fender that has a decent amount of space between it and the tire.

I found some information on the GM website on this motor, but it looks like it's not easy to find a replacement sprocket, I might just have an adapter made so I can thread on bicycle track cogs/freewheels onto the motor and retain all the normal manner of a using bicycle parts available just about anywhere.

If I go that route, I will very easily attach the hub portion of a track hub with the LH threaded locking ring and never have to use locktight to hold on my track cogs.

[dbaker]

Just read through your thread Lot of weight to that motor Can't wait to see what your max speed is What are your impressions having switched forks? Is the steering noticeably more stable at speed? Was trail changed much? Lovin this build

[LI-ghtcycle]

Just read through your thread Lot of weight to that motor Can't wait to see what your max speed is What are your impressions having switched forks? Is the steering noticeably more stable at speed? Was trail changed much? Lovin this build

Well, currently, I can gear it for as low as 14.2 MPH and as high as 49.6 MPH no load, but of course that just means that I've effectively lost a lot of gearing range since anything over probably 35 MPH on the flat is going to be wasted at 45V of LiPo, however, since this is such a large motor, will require me to eventually change up the gearing, I also plan on going to say, 74V or there about to gain even more efficiency.

I love options though, so first I think I will build the adapter to allow the use of track cogs at the motor and go from there.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Just read through your thread Lot of weight to that motor Can't wait to see what your max speed is What are your impressions having switched forks? Is the steering noticeably more stable at speed? Was trail changed much? Lovin this build

Oh sorry forgot the forks ... I love having the 1 1/2 inch taller forks, no real change in handling that I can tell, now I just have less possibility of a pedal strike while turning at slow speeds, and any tire I want to squeeze in there will fit just fine!

I didn't really notice any difference at speed, more of a change in height than geometry from what I can tell just seat of the pants.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Well, I discovered an easy way to move the motor back from underneath the seat, AND I will use the same bolt that holds the motor to hold the rear fender mount down, simplifying things, today I will be testing under power! Soon I will have efficiency info to post. Hopefully the large motor will soak up heat better at 48V, if not, I will be heading to Vancouver WA to check out a different slightly smaller motor.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Some pretty good progress today, too tired to take pics though sorry. (I'll have some tomorrow for sure)

I had an attack of the perfectionist in me, and decided to take time making a really nice looking and minimalist "dash board" and I inherited a keyed switch, so this is going to be my cleanest build yet!

In hopes that I will get some benefit from regen braking, I am going ahead and wiring up the original switch cluster that I got from Lyen so I could have a headlight switch, future blinkers and regen brake switch, but I am torn on getting yet another switch and wiring in an electronic horn that I have still from my first E-Bike build (the one that sounds like a fire truck's unique "horn") since I could get a momentary switch pretty easy and attach it in the same place as my bell.

Anyhow, all is going well, and will be done sometime tomorrow (need to ride to an appointment Wed. so I will have to buckle down tomorrow) and hopefully give me time to do some errands on the bike for a test.

Last night I finished wiring up my new 24V 25A power supply and I am pretty pleased with how it turned out too, all batteries are freshly balanced, and ready to go!

Just need to finish installing my switches, install & program the CA, and I am done!

This is also going to be my most compact build, other than wiring for the CA and & a few switches on bars, it's going to have very few wiring compared to previous builds where I had to run power wires to my Turnigy watt meter to keep an eye on the battery, all that will be done with the direct plug-in large screen CA!

I really can't wait to try everything out!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Pics!









Here I had to take the RH thumb throttle and adapt it for the left, just cut and re-glued the cable guide strait instead of bent down to keep it from being in the way.





Here I finally found a good place to attach the controller, I just drilled some blind 1/8 holes and used some machine screws from computer cases to attach it, seems to be pretty strong, used silicone to lock the threads, will see if it needs more after the first test ride, might end up going to med locktight if needed.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Well, it always seems to take longer than I expect ... took me a while to figure out I was missing a connector and that was why my harness wasn't matching up, recycling the wiring from my last build.

More pics tomorrow!

[LI-ghtcycle]

New Pics!







I actually wanted to cover the switch box with some thin ABS sheet, but I was out, so used coroplast instead, and it turned out better than I expected, might just keep it.





All that I need to do now is decide how to cover the rest of the wires, reattach the seat & bag, and plug in the batteries (oh ya program the CA too) and it will be live!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Finally!! Sucess!! (Sort of )









So!! pick up the rear wheel, crack the throttle and hear the sweet music of the motor, and realize the pedals are flying around!

(maybe this now explains how the motor locking up with phase wires touching lead me to believe I might get some marginal regen braking ability, not so .. it the NuVinci freewheels quite smoothly with the motor turning it in reverse ... good thing I spent all that extra time wiring in the E-brake "horn" button! ... I'll have to wire up my electronic horn to it now )

I'm going to have to figure out the easiest way to swap phase wires or what ever I can do to get the motor going in the opposite direction (IIRC this should be no problem?) either that or I will have to employ once of Rassy's tricks to get the chain turning the wheel in the opposite direction or something ... and just when I was hoping to get a 40 MPH+ no-load speed to see how my gearing was treating me.

For now I need a rest my body and brain are a bit worn out, gonna relax, eat dinner and then finish.

[Rassy]

Sounds like you are close. If I understand it correctly, you should only have to swap any pair of phase wires and their corresponding hall wires. One possible problem is that the phase wire colors and halls wire colors may not correspond, but there are only three swaps of the halls to try, so shouldn't be a big deal.

I didn't even try to run my 9C backwards (that was the original plan) because it came with the disk brake threads on the other side, which meant when running the motor it is trying to screw the freewheel or track cog on tighter, which is good.

Also, I have read that some motors are not neutral timed or symmetrical concerning the placement of the hall sensors. and thus will only run optimally in the forward direction.

Good luck, anxious to see how it all works out.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Thanks Rassy!

The only thing I "know" (and I use this word VERY loosely ) about this motor/controller combination is that it's a relatively standard one, and was the same that is typically standard with Lyen's controllers.

However, upon reading about this, it would seem unless I have the right motor/controller combo, it could indeed work out that I will not get the same performance going in the opposite direction as going forward, so I'm really hoping this can be just a matter of swapping wires, since that would defeat the purpose of the build's simplicity and ease of installation.

If wire swapping isn't feasible, I guess I will have to settle for using some form of jack-shaft, because running the left side would again defeat the purpose, as I would gain no benefit from the motor running through the NuVinci's "gearing"

[LI-ghtcycle]

Holly gearing Batman!!

I set the "max speed" at 59 MPH on the CA so my first no-load test with the over-drive maxed, I have 64MPH on the CA before it starts cutting out!!


Gonna have to fix that and see what the no-load is with out that restriction!

(This just means I have WAAAY too tall of gears atm, gonna have to get that fixed to properly climb the local hill, but it will sure be fun going down, all the way at 40 MPH in the 35 zone!

[LI-ghtcycle]

W00000T!!!

OK, this is INSANE!!!

I put the speed limit back to 99 MPH thinking "yeah right" and twisted the throttle gently and at 78 FREAKING MPH I seriously got worried!!!

Yeah, I know this is just no load speed, and hot off the charger surface charge, but WOW!!

That and it has this SEXY "Jet Turbine" sound probably thanks to the 9T motor sprocket!

I was too scared to use any more throttle given that I don't have a proper center stand and if I slipped and the bike fell to the ground it would launch!!!

(I have been hanging one side of the seat on the edge of the desk in the garage and just propping it up!)

They must have REALLY screwed up the description on their web site listing it as 1100 RPM's at 48V, that or I have made a serious error of my own calculations?!

I'm estimating about 75 - 80% throttle at 78 MPH no load speed, and YES I am sure I have the correct wheel size into the external speed sensor with magnet!! I know these are good numbers, I have used them on two other cycle computers and confirmed them with GPS and radar speed signs (I measured the exact distance marking the floor and all that 2123 for a 26 x 2.3 in wide tire)

I think I just put together my first 40+ MPH E-Bike (if the motor has the guts! )

Man I don't have an EV grin I gotta permanent JOKER SMILE that will have to be SURGicallY reMOVED!!

That and an uncontrollable case of the giggles!!!!!!

[LI-ghtcycle]

I just turned the NuVinci down to lowest gear, and maxed the throttle, and it hit 38 MPH!

If my calculations are correct, that means the new correct RPM at 49V is 3,000 RPM, and from the sounds of the motor, I wouldn't be surprised, I need to borrow a lazer tach or what ever you call them to confirm my RPM's

It's time for some serious chain! #219 here we come!

[neptronix]

That is just cool as hell man. I wish i would have been able to ride that mid-drive with the nuvinci before i left town because it sounded rad.. you gotta get some video of this sucker when you get it out on the road.

Judging by the pics it looks like you got a nice heated seat for the winter, LOL..

[LI-ghtcycle]

That is just cool as hell man. I wish i would have been able to ride that mid-drive with the nuvinci before i left town because it sounded rad.. you gotta get some video of this sucker when you get it out on the road.

Judging by the pics it looks like you got a nice heated seat for the winter, LOL..

Heck ya!

It's my "seat of the pants" temp sensor!

[dbaker]

Can't wait for some on the road numbers, current draw vs. speed

[LI-ghtcycle]

Can't wait for some on the road numbers, current draw vs. speed

You and me too! It's raining today, but who cares! I have a mission!! Soon as I get some breakfast and adjust the amps down a bit to be safe, I'm gonna see what this baby can do!

[LI-ghtcycle]

Oh well, no such luck so far, I must be one of the "false positive" hall wire combinations, it's not getting hot or stuttering, but it's pulling way too many amps and barely going along on flat ground, gonna have to try and find the right wiring combination.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Ok now that I have the Rshunt value correct, I'm getting more power, imagine that!

I've taking it on some low speed test rides seeing where the "sweet spot" is gearing wise, and I just realized to help me be more accurate at judging gearing for the motor, I will stay with my 48T chain ring on the crank, so as to not have the motor working to hard against tall gearing.

Still checking things out for now, not sure if I will be testing on the hill climbing with this tall of gearing, but I will check most everything else, and should have some efficiency numbers soon!