Pikes Peak, Electric Mountain Climbers...

[LI-ghtcycle]

I have to say, if there is going to be a serious race, get ready for the mid-drives to walk away from the hub motors!

mmmkay, don't see how the hub debate was anywhere on the radar to what's being discussed.
but if you really can't help yourself & just have to get in your swipe then i guess i just have to rebut.



the problem with a hubmotor is that it is stuck in one gear, n'est-ce pas?
it's efficient at only one particular rpm.
in normal road racing where speed is never constant, you're relentlessly accelerating (either positive or negative) a hubmotor is at a decided disadvantage.
well, that along with it's higher inertial mass it sucks ballz really.

however in applications that run mostly constant speed without wavering off it's efficiency peak too much is precisely where a hubmotor is in it's element.
that's why a hubmotor works reasonably well for a commuter bike.
the overall percentage of time spent off-peak spinning up to speed is relatively low.
and climbing a mountain is even more steady-state constant rpm than commuting.
the terrain may vary a little but it's basically a pinned throttle race.

ask the opti-dweebs how much use they got out of their gears.
they said the first six or almost half their rohloff was dead weight.
really, if there was ever a race tailor made for a hubbie, pikes peak is it.

Sure a hub motor properly modified/specialized for the specific task will be competitive, but if it's limited to the same weight, watt hours of battery and motor wattage, a properly sorted mid-drive type E-Bike is going to beat a hub motor every time. Sure in a Drag race or some similar event that might not be true, but in true endurance test like this event, efficiency & power delivery is going to trump a big motor every time.

never heard of the CSIRO solar car hubmotor?? (i think you have).
don't know what size mountains they tackled but regardless the motor can't tell if it's pushing against the wind or pushing against gravity makes no difference.
history has already proven you wrong that it's the hubmotor that can't be touched for efficiency.

actually you sound a lot like josh's friend who attempted the climb with him last year.
he wrote off hubmotors completely from his wild extrapolation based on a few meager data points.

Learnings and take-aways are:


There is nothing like a derailer geared electric drive for efficiency on
steep hill climbs. All who made it were derailer geared, and all who didn't
weren't.

well mr. bidwell, the stromer (a hubmotor) almost made it going 24 of the 26 miles falling short only for the want of miscalculating by a few amp-hours.
he had 720Wh compared to optibikes that came equipped with over 1 kWh packs.
not much of difference in energy consumed either way.

Hey there, kinda touched a sore spot did I?

Don't get me wrong, I have no hate for hub motors! They are by far the simplest and most cost effective E-Bike motors around!

They are also some of the least efficient around (while laced to a typical 26in/700c wheel, even a 20in isn't going to cut it at the same voltage/watt hours) , when in my own testing I used only 35% of what was required to power the same hub motor on the same bike doing the same hill climb when used as mid-drive with appropriate gearing VS wasting over 60% of my AH's in heat, I think you are missing the point.

I'm not saying that a hub motor can't hack this hill, I am saying a hub motor given the same power available (same amount of watt hours), being so much more wasteful in it's energy consumption is just going to loose.

It's like comparing a early 50's V-8 to a modern V-6 or even some 4 cyl engines, SURE you can do all kinds of mods on that old V-8 and get the performance you want, and use 4x the fuel, and what have you, but that's not saying it's even in the same class as a modern efficient engine with a turbo/supercharger.

The fastest E-Bike I've heard mentioned on this board so far has NOT been a hub motor, it has been a single stage reduced Agni motor with a TON of battery what was it ... 20 Kilowatts of power reaching speeds of 92 MPH?! Now take that same bike, give it the same battery powering the Optibike and see how far it goes up the hill at Pikes before it runs out of juice.

All things equal, efficiency wins the day. If you don't have restrictions on power (i.e. the year they let larger engines compete at the Indy 500 if they were PUSH-rod instead of OHC) sure lesser tech can win, but once you level the power used, unless you're doing a short burst of speed like in a drag race, the more efficient system will win every time.

Imagine two racers in TDF with equal strength and skill, one with a fixie, one with a standard geared bike. It really doesn't matter if the gear ratio on the fixie is a pretty good compromise between hill climbing & high speed flat-road gearing, the rider with more gears to use is always going to have a huge advantage.

[dogman]

My estimates were that the pikes peak run on a typical winding hubmotor would waste a lot of energy into heat. So you'd have to carry more battery than was carried on the opti. But lugging enough battery, a typical hubmotor should make it. I heard temps were pretty cold at the top, so oveheating the motor may be less of a problem that I had thought it would be.

No big deal to carry a pound or two of dead weight in the gear hub. The key thing is they got to do the climb in the right gear.

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

They are also some of the least efficient around (while laced to a typical 26in/700c wheel, even a 20in isn't going to cut it at the same voltage/watt hours) , when in my own testing I used only 35% of what was required to power the same hub motor on the same bike doing the same hill climb when used as mid-drive with appropriate gearing VS wasting over 60% of my AH's in heat, I think you are missing the point.

that's where you made you're mistake.
you don't use the same config hubmotor that's intended for gp use that you would for strictly climbing a hill.
do you drive a golf ball with your putter as well??
bottom line, short of a motor chilled & wound with superconducting wire, it's a hubmotor propelled EV that holds the record afaik for efficiency.
and it's not even the CSIRO solarcar hubmotor, which already stands at 96%.

Imagine two racers in TDF with equal strength and skill, one with a fixie, one with a standard geared bike. It really doesn't matter if the gear ratio on the fixie is a pretty good compromise between hill climbing & high speed flat-road gearing, the rider with more gears to use is always going to have a huge advantage.

good illustration, wrong conclusion.
*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.
an excellent example of what i'm talking about.

[Hillhater]

*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.

FYI... on the PP run, the Opti's speed ranged from 14mph to 25 mph most of the time, but with periods over 30 mph and peak of 42mph.
That is a big range to cover EFFICIENTLY with only one gear.
A derailleur set, weighs what ?..1 lb ?
my money would be on the geared bike ! ... by a long way !

[LI-ghtcycle]

*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.

FYI... on the PP run, the Opti's speed ranged from 14mph to 25 mph most of the time, but with periods over 30 mph and peak of 42mph.
That is a big range to cover EFFICIENTLY with only one gear.
A derailleur set, weighs what ?..1 lb ?
my money would be on the geared bike ! ... by a long way !

That's good information to help give us something to look more specifically at, I had suspected there were lots of variation in speed used, but I didn't have any hard data, thanks for adding that info!

[LI-ghtcycle]

They are also some of the least efficient around (while laced to a typical 26in/700c wheel, even a 20in isn't going to cut it at the same voltage/watt hours) , when in my own testing I used only 35% of what was required to power the same hub motor on the same bike doing the same hill climb when used as mid-drive with appropriate gearing VS wasting over 60% of my AH's in heat, I think you are missing the point.

that's where you made you're mistake.
you don't use the same config hubmotor that's intended for gp use that you would for strictly climbing a hill.
do you drive a golf ball with your putter as well??
bottom line, short of a motor chilled & wound with superconducting wire, it's a hubmotor propelled EV that holds the record afaik for efficiency.
and it's not even the CSIRO solarcar hubmotor, which already stands at 96%.

Imagine two racers in TDF with equal strength and skill, one with a fixie, one with a standard geared bike. It really doesn't matter if the gear ratio on the fixie is a pretty good compromise between hill climbing & high speed flat-road gearing, the rider with more gears to use is always going to have a huge advantage.

good illustration, wrong conclusion.
*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.
an excellent example of what i'm talking about.

I'm not familiar with the CSIRO solarcar, I will look that up thank you!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Astro motors also in that 96% efficient range? I mean it's just a motor after all, whether it's put into a hub or ran as a smaller diameter out-runner like the Astro's, it's as much about how the motor it's self is constructed, whether it's put into a hub or used as mid-drive right? (lets not forget that the 60%+ efficiency increase I saw in my own real world testing was using a Amped 9 x 7 (9C) DD hub motor as mid-drive. )

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that a hub motor can't be efficient, but as you have stated, if one is going with a pretty consistent load, sure, a hub motor (that is laced into a wheel) is going to hit it's efficiency zone especially designed for perhaps a WOT speed that will be constant for 90% or more of the race, however, in most real world applications, a hub motor, much like a fixie a hubmotor is NOT going to be efficient.

Sure if you live in the flatlands with virtually no hills, especially in a city, this makes plenty of sense, just as with the fixie/hub motor you typically have lots of starts and stops, and the lower component count, robust simplicity make perfect sense, no time wasted shifting derailleurs, just pedal!

Now come to my back-yard, Oregon City. I live on top of a hill that requires me to travel down then up for most anything that I can't find on the shelf at Fred Meyers (bicycle parts for one!) and it's going to take a huge bite out of my efficiency if I ride my hub motor bike VS that same motor used as a mid-drive.

I have to travel 2 miles of up hill that starts at a minimum of 5% (this is if I am able to "cheat" and use the elevator to avoid the first 12 -7% grade depending on which route I take) and has about 3 - 4 blocks of 7%+ grade, the worst being about 10% for at least half a block, and why lug around 20lbs of battery when for most trips going a total of 20-40 miles I can use half or 10bls of battery to do the exact same job using a mid-drive?

I'm not attacking your beloved hub motor!



I'm not recommending we start a "hub burning" (ok Dogman's exempt, he can burn what ever he likes, thanks for all your valuable testing DM by the way! ) and rid the earth of this "evil scourge" .



If I am going to the ends of the earth and want something that just works, a fixie/hub motor might just be the ticket in Antarctica, or if I just want a simple no frills E-Bike that is damn hard to kill, has few parts to fail, and just works every time I want to use it for commuting or what ever, LiFeP04 and hub motor all the way!

However, as long as it is still practical enough for me to use as daily transportation, I'm going to stick to my mid-drive and my LiPo, because for all it's extra complexity and extra parts count, it's huge increase (I consider 60% to be huge ) in efficiency, I will use it instead.

I still have and love my Amped 9 x 7 DD hubbie, and I have NO plans to send it to the scrap yard, once I have time and ability (still really sick, but getting better) I will either have it laced or lace it into a new rim myself as project as it will be my "Fixie" the bike I can just get on and ride, no fuss, no worries, no checking every little thing before I ride E- bike.

When you add the contest of man, machine and a 24 mile course like the Assult on Pikes Peak, why the hell WOULDN'T I use the best option around?

If I were to attend, and I had the funds, I would love to see how much something like a Ecospeed or my own home brew mid-drive would perform. I know the Ecospeed would handle it no problem, my own current project *might* be tweaked to be more of a performance VS the cargo bike low torque hill climber with out regard for speed that I am working on, but I would probably need a different motor than I am going to use.

Hell, I bet if it was closer, Ecospeed would have attended, but hey, they are doing just fine selling their product, and I doubt they feel the need. Would be nice to see how they faced off with Opti, I imagine they would be a very close second if not a down-right contender for the fastest time.

[Bike_on]

[Yep, I think weight is the key as well, because it's extremely easy to check, universal, and tougher to cheat than anything involving trying to measure power. Weight means, as much as I would like to bring something with 20kw, I can't, because I would only be able to carry enough battery to go a few miles before I was eating enough 30sec penalties that it would be impossible for me to win. It would force both clever light weight bicycle designs, as well as pretty tight average power limits simply because you couldn't carry enough battery to make it up if you were excessively powerful.]

So basically a hub can make it up Pike's (ie. finish) if power is resticted in order to limit overheating. Running a bigger hub at 500W should make it up. Even then, a mid drive Kalkoff running 250W might not be far behind, IMO.

[Green Machine]

I rode an optibike for a month or two this year and reviewed it on another thread.

I thought it was an excellent machine but was too slow and as others have said expensive.

But on the other hand i think when you consider the quality of the build and the components ie rohloff drive, fox suspension, a lithium battery with a 30,000 mile warranty and all the amazing support the company gives the price is not too far fetched...especially considering it is made in the USA and is in limited production.

Since i have spent up to 7k on home builds consisting mostly of chinese parts i think 12k is not too much for an opti but then again if i spend that kind of money i dont want it to be slow...

I think: 1. speed 2. range 3. price are the 3 most important factors on an ebike followed by another big 3 : 1. reliability 2. aesthetics 3. Noise level (stealthiness)

I remember owning the opti i was extremely confident i wasnt going to smoke a controller or motor going up any hill...but at the same time i wished it was much faster.

Now that they have seemed to address that issue i think the optibike has become a formidable contendor for the best ebike available for instant purchase.

I think i said it before but a big congrads to opti at pikes this year for not only dominating a very challenging race but more importantly making a bold step to release a much more viable product to the market. if i spend 12k on a bike i dont want to be passed on some beater electric bike some other guy spent 1k on.

[Hillhater]

...I think: 1. speed 2. range 3. price are the 3 most important factors on an ebike

I remember owning the opti i was extremely confident i wasnt going to smoke a controller or motor going up any hill...but at the same time i wished it was much faster.

Now that they have seemed to address that issue i think the optibike has become a formidable contendor for the best ebike available for instant purchase.
.

They may have addressed the speed ( 35mph ?), but at considerable cost increase..
.. so that is only an improvement if cost is not a concern. ......... ( but you consider cost to be one of the top 3 factors ??)

[Green Machine]

Cost is huge dont get me wrong.

But i am thinking this might be the best commercially available bike on the planet right now and people are willing to spend to have the best.

I would love to take some credit for this because i really pushed hard for a fast optibike. It would make my day if optibike craig, a good guy, would acknowledge that cuz i was pushing really hard. I know he follows these threads like a hawk.

i know people who spend 30k on a wrist watch at the low end. 30k buys an entry level boutique watch. But no one would spend that kind of cash for a watch that doesnt even keep proper time no matter what the other factors are. Well speed is the #1 factor on an ebike....oh oh oh add low weight to the equation.

You got to keep things in perspective.

14k is not a lot of money for something hand built in america that is as potentially life changing as an optibike can be. Plenty of people will spend for speed, range, reliability and aesthetics.

Me personally i would rather spend 14k on this optibike before i would spend 11k on a stealth.

I mean i think in exagerrated manner but i think this new optibike might be one of the best bikes ever built...and 7 finishers out of 7 might be proof.

As an example I love matts yellow tadpole..think it is one of the best ebikes ever built ...but i doubt it would finish pikes...would bet against it at this point. Matt wants 9k for that bike, and that is a used bike. Optibike most definately has better resell value than a custom built bike as well.

Optibke pure and simple stepped up to the plate this time. You got to hand it to them.

I think i will get an opportunity to test ride this new optibike..and at that point i would like to continue my review. Because i think this new optibike is a "dream bike" even to a very skeptical and smart ES crowd.

[GrayKard]

I think i will get an opportunity to test ride this new optibike..and at that point i would like to continue my review. Because i think this new optibike is a "dream bike" even to a very skeptical and smart ES crowd.

You've shown a few times that you haven't a clue what ESers want in an ebike. So I'll go out on a limb and would say given the choice that most here would choose a Stealth bike over an Opti. Although I might choose the Opti if they throw in turn signal and brake lights.

Gary

[Green Machine]

Hey graycard,

I would love to do a poll thread on that thesis of yours and see if your right.

Like one of my heroes says...one test is worth a thousand opinions.

You want to wager anything on the results?

I dont know i would admit its hard for me to judge without riding both bikes first.

To me the optibike looks and weighs a hell of a lot better than the stealth.

Not to mention that almost any of the regular members here could build a stealth clone pretty easy compared to building an opti.

So you say if you can have either bike for free most es members would choose stealth?

Is that what your saying?

Also to get the ball rolling...you would pick a stealth over an opti if your given either for free?

[remf]

Check out this first hand report by the winner, John, lowco2. It's one of the best I've ever read, full of detail, pics, graphs, ride data and video. I want an Opti 1100R now.

http://www.teambaconstrip.com/2011/09/0 ... -thin-air/

[kfong]

Anyone who seriously trail rides will choose the lighter bike.

[kfong]

Thanks for the link, I just read it and now even more impressed. Any ebike entering next year with a lot of weight is going to be at a major disadvantage. It's going to be tough to beat Opti.

Check out this first hand report by the winner, John, lowco2. It's one of the best I've ever read, full of detail, pics, graphs, ride data and video. I want an Opti 1100R now.

http://www.teambaconstrip.com/2011/09/0 ... -thin-air/

[comradegerry]

Thanks Remf for posting the link, it does seem like a great balance of man and machine effort, I am truly impressed with John's achievement.
The bar is indeed sat very high... Did I miss his finish time in the article?

[gtadmin]

...
I think: 1. speed 2. range 3. price are the 3 most important factors on an ebike followed by another big 3 : 1. reliability 2. aesthetics 3. Noise level (stealthiness)
...

I know I'm in the minority here, but this is almost my top 6, err ... in reverse

[veloman]

*not* if the race is strictly uphill with no or at least very little variation in slope which is the case here.
the multiple geared bike isn't gonna shift anyways.
those extra unused gears are nothing but dead weight.
you bet the lighter weight fixie's gonna win that race to the top.

FYI... on the PP run, the Opti's speed ranged from 14mph to 25 mph most of the time, but with periods over 30 mph and peak of 42mph.
That is a big range to cover EFFICIENTLY with only one gear.
A derailleur set, weighs what ?..1 lb ?
my money would be on the geared bike ! ... by a long way !

Hell yeah.

What race, even a hill climb is such a steady grade? There are not any! You will still vary speed by at least 50% over the course. Gears win hands down in 95% of events.

Tom Danlieson won Mt Washington on a geared road bike, not a single speed. When I rode that climb, even though it was quite steady at 12% average, I still varied from 5mph to 15mph, with peaks above 25mph . That's a HUGE range. I'd like to see an ebike do Mt Washington. 12% for 7.6 miles.

I don't hate on the Opti, other than it's price tag. I built a similar design bike, (see GT Ricochet in sig), but it only had a 450w motor. It still rallied up steep hills, AND cruised the flats efficently at 25-30mph with light assist. Mid drive crank designs are really fun to ride, in that you go through the gears, making it feel like a race machine moreso.

My 6 turn Mac is pretty damn efficient. Pulling 500 watts from the battery (400 to the tire), it gets about 26mph on flat ground with an aero tuck (zero pedaling). That's only about 50 watts more than me on my 18 lb road bike in spandex (low position, but not an aero tuck).

Even at 15-20mph, it still seems to be about 80% efficient, which is really impressive since it is designed to go 31mph.

[veloman]

I think i will get an opportunity to test ride this new optibike..and at that point i would like to continue my review. Because i think this new optibike is a "dream bike" even to a very skeptical and smart ES crowd.

You've shown a few times that you haven't a clue what ESers want in an ebike. So I'll go out on a limb and would say given the choice that most here would choose a Stealth bike over an Opti. Although I might choose the Opti if they throw in turn signal and brake lights.

Gary

Most here want power and speed, not efficiency. So I would agree.

When batteries cost 10 cents a watt hour, and weigh a couple pounds for a kilowatt hour, then I will lose interest in efficiency.

[neptronix]

Next year i want to do this. I live very close to pike's peak now, about 5 miles away. I want to make optibike cry. Any suggestions on what hub motor setup to use? am currently thinking 5305 or so...

[liveforphysics]

Next year i want to do this. I live very close to pike's peak now, about 5 miles away. I want to make optibike cry. Any suggestions on what hub motor setup to use? am currently thinking 5305 or so...

I think a hub is kinda the wrong path for this. Or, if you were to choose a hub, a magic pipe laced into the smallest diameter rim possible would be the best option.

This isn't a sprint, so thermal mass doesn't help you a bit, you need your heat production to match the rate of heat removal. Super heavily drilled vented Magic Pie, internal controller gutted and replaced with some internal cooling fans, and an 18fet controller turned down to maybe 50 battery amps on a 24s pack would be a very strong attempt at the peak if you wanted to go hub.

I smoked my X5 in 10mins of road racing, and it was well vented. You need something with a good design for this rather than something that relies on being a big pig boat anchor to survive bursts of high power.

[neptronix]

Now.... why would you chose a magic pie over the biggest crystalyte? any reason?
Would two MXUS/9C DD motors with a high turn count.. one on each wheel.. do the trick?

I wish i had the machining ability, space, or tools to put together something like your agni bmx. After a lot of searching, i have yet to find anyone into eBikes here either. For that reason.. hub motors make a lot of sense to me, if they work.

[gensem]

I think a hub is kinda the wrong path for this. Or, if you were to choose a hub, a magic pipe laced into the smallest diameter rim possible would be the best option.

This isn't a sprint, so thermal mass doesn't help you a bit, you need your heat production to match the rate of heat removal. Super heavily drilled vented Magic Pie, internal controller gutted and replaced with some internal cooling fans, and an 18fet controller turned down to maybe 50 battery amps on a 24s pack would be a very strong attempt at the peak if you wanted to go hub.

I smoked my X5 in 10mins of road racing, and it was well vented. You need something with a good design for this rather than something that relies on being a big pig boat anchor to survive bursts of high power.

Errm... wouldnt a dual MAC 200rpm running 80v 20amps each be way more efficient and have more torque? BTW they wont heat or break at under 2k. A little more weight than a single HS but with a hella lot more torque!

[neptronix]

That certainly is an option. However i am very concerned about braking; the regen braking is probably going to be critical on the way down, where some cyclists will hit 50mph or more. Imagine going down a 15%-7% grade on a bicycle for extended periods of time.

I am a big MAC fanboy but the lack of regen is an issue. I wonder if welding the clutch solid would be a proper workaround.

[liveforphysics]

Dude, riding down is the very least of your concerns. Rim brakes will be fine. Start with fresh pads, and you will maybe burn through most of the pad before reaching the bottom, but they will be fine and not fade.

Your #1 concern is getting rid of motor heat. It's 98% of the whole project. Followed by 1% in battery (big pile of LiPo), and 1% in mounting it on a bike.