Marin Muirwoods eBike (3RD BUILD)

[TonyReynolds]

EDIT: This thread is primarily about my third build using roughly the same eBike componentry, a MAC 8T kit from Cell_man with a lifepo4 battery. The reason for the thread was to document my desire to move away from an aluminum framed bike to steel, thinking that it would be good fodder for noobs (Like me...) ENJOY!

I want to move away from my aluminum frame/fork bike and on to steel. I also want a 29er frame to be able to get more suspension from bigger tires. I've looked ad nauseum for FS steel frames and come up with little, and nothing in my modest price range. I've pretty much ruled out FS anyway, as I had a Novara FS bike a few years ago and didn't like the peddle-bob.

I've found this, Marin Muirwoods:



It's go a 4130 frame, cromoloy fork with a nice rake and comfortable geometry. Steel is more forgiving and less stiff than aluminum, so that with some Big Apples should get me more cushioned ride. I'm not asking for total float, just a less jarring ride than my current build provides.

I can simply swap my Brooks saddle, Wellgo/SPD pedals along with all the electrics and be in business lickity-split. Oh yeah, and unlike a lot of the bikes these days, the frame triangle will take my battery.

Any thoughts? $699 is a good price.

[DAND214]

I've pretty much ruled out FS anyway, as I had a Novara FS bike a few years ago and didn't like the peddle-bob.

Why worry about that YPEDAL as he says.

I love my FS ebikes, much smoother than the hardtail.

I suppose if you are climbing a mountain you might be concerned. Just add more power and let the motor do it's job.

Dan

[Lenk42602]

tony,

i have a steel 29 er hardtail I am posting for sale on CL, not on this forum.

pm if you're interested

len

[TonyReynolds]

I've pretty much ruled out FS anyway, as I had a Novara FS bike a few years ago and didn't like the peddle-bob.

Why worry about that YPEDAL as he says.

I love my FS ebikes, much smoother than the hardtail.

I suppose if you are climbing a mountain you might be concerned. Just add more power and let the motor do it's job.

Dan

I want to pedal for the exercise.

[LI-ghtcycle]

I've pretty much ruled out FS anyway, as I had a Novara FS bike a few years ago and didn't like the peddle-bob.

Why worry about that YPEDAL as he says.

I love my FS ebikes, much smoother than the hardtail.

I suppose if you are climbing a mountain you might be concerned. Just add more power and let the motor do it's job.

Dan

If you like to pedal, FS really eats up a lot of your pedaling force. That is why there are so many FS bikes with lock outs on their suspension these days.

Of course if you're not planning on doing much pedaling, then it's not an issue until you have a break-down and then you're doubly stuck with a heavy E-Bike AND suspension that is eating a significant amount of your pedaling energy.

If I ever built a FS frame, I would definitely have lock-outs for emergency pedaling if nothing else.

[DCMotorworks]

Looks like a nice bike to convert to e-power. I prefer hard tails for fast commuter/street builds and utilize full suspension frames for their added traction rather than a smooth ride. I built a low power (300watt) front wheel drive full suspension bike with huge knobby tires that was a blast when playing around in the dirt and worked great commuting on the few days of snow we had in the Seattle area last winter.
For a smoother riding rear wheel drive hard tail I find moderate sized tires (1.95s), front suspension forks and a suspension seat post works well.

DC

[TonyReynolds]

For a smoother riding rear wheel drive hard tail I find moderate sized tires (1.95s), front suspension forks and a suspension seat post works well.

DC

Great input. I have a Brooks Flyer saddle, which has springs, so suspension seat post probably wouldn't be necessary. I plan on looking at the Muirwoods this afternoon. Most reviews look very positive, though many say it's heavy. With a moderate power set-up like mine, a little heavier isn't a big deal. Being more robust is.

[TonyReynolds]

I had originally wanted to go with a custom build based on a Karate Monkey frame, much like DennyT did:



There's still a chance I could go that way, and it has its advantages, especially as regards the component mix:

1. Better (larger diameter rotors) for the brakes
2. Better rims (I like the Salsa rims Denny just installed on his)
3. 1x8 transmission with a 52 tooth front
4. Bars, shifters, etc., etc.

The Muirwoods looks like a good compromise though, with the ability to upgrade key components later on if I need to.

[GMUseless]

Have you seen the Kona Steely? It looks like a decent component set, CroMo frame, $775.

http://www.departmentofgoods.com/kona-steely-mountain-bike

I've seen them pop up on http://www.chainlove.com in the $550 range.

[TonyReynolds]

Have you seen the Kona Steely? It looks like a decent component set, CroMo frame, $775.

http://www.departmentofgoods.com/kona-steely-mountain-bike

I've seen them pop up on http://www.chainlove.com in the $550 range.

Looks cool, but it's a 26. Either way I'll ahve to have my MAC 8T relaced into a new wheel, because it's in a 700c now, and that rim won't take the 1.95 or 2.00 tires I want to run.

[DCMotorworks]

there really isn't much out there that fits your needs at the moment. I'm thinking the Marin Muirwoods may be your best option.

the 2011 Redline D440 16spd 29er (MSRP $610) is a CroMo but no disk brakes.

the 2010 Redline D600 was a CroMo 29er (original MSRP $849) but it unfortunately "evolved" into an aluminum frame in 2011.

d440-thumb_800.jpg (90.71 KiB) Viewed 2403 times

rdln_d600_10_m.jpg (21.74 KiB) Viewed 2403 times

[Drunkskunk]

My first and third ebikes were 29rs. on smooth ground, 29rs feel like they can roll forever.

But I'v discovered 2.5 inch tires on a 26 have a similar diameter to a 29r. And the extra cussion of the baloon tire absorbs far more of the rough stuff.

[TonyReynolds]

This is all good stuff.

I was at REI yesterday looking for a Muirwoods, which they didn't have in stock. The shop manager was a purist, so trying to explain to him the need for a steel frame and mounting a hub-motor, etc. fell somewhat on deaf ears. However, before I left, I saw a Marin Pine Mountain on close out, for $1299. It's a wonderful 29'er.



I was immediately in love, until I discovered that it had absolutely NO braze-ons for fenders, rack, etc.

That, plus the fact that for the same price, I could build a 1x9 with hydraulic brakes and all the other goodies I need out of one of these:



Yup, it's a Karate Monkey with more bits to make a good commuter. However, a Karate Monkey may still fill the bill. I'm keeping my eyes peeled. I know that there are options in steel, as long as I don't insist on FS, and at this point I don't think that's really necessary. The Novara Ponderosa looked very good, but it's aluminum:

[waynebergman]

Chris Dekerf makes a 29er. He often uses Reynolds 853 Steel but not sure what this 29inch bike is made of. I had one of his first full suspension bikes way back. He makes very nice bikes but can be pricey. He works out of Vancouver BC Canada and his web site will show you what he does. Zoom in on the method he uses for fitting his stays before brazing. He is a cleaver guy.

[iperov]

why need torque arm on steel fork??

[TonyReynolds]

why need torque arm on steel fork??

I have a rear gear motor, but even so, most of the experienced wrenches here will recommend additional torque plates, even with a steel frame. A steel frame DOESN'T mean that I won't need to run torque arms, it DOES mean a more forgiving ride and the OPTION of possibly installing a matching motor on teh front fork at a later date. It's not recommended to install a 500W MAC on an aluminum fork...

[iperov]

i have no torq arms on my standard mag fork. No problems.
Show me photo of any damaged fork

[TonyReynolds]

i have no torq arms on my standard mag fork. No problems.
Show me photo of any damaged fork

From Dogman:

It's not the "strength" that's the problem. It's the way carbon, and alloy fail. All at once.

Having said that, I am running a front motor on alloy forks. The use of a properly fitted pair of torque arms helps prevent the load that will crack my dropouts.

So why not use two torque arms and put it on a carbon fork? One reason is that the carbon fork may not be capable of taking the side load on the fork, in the spot where the torque arm is attached. You could break the whole fork off, instead of cracking just the dropouts.

But the real reason it would be dumb, is a motor is going to simply ruin a sweet riding carbon bike. Motorize a steel fork road bike that weighs twice as much, and rides just as good once motorized.

One more point. I'm too dumb to follow your calculations. But this I know. I've never had braking forces screw up a dropout on a bike, not even on 50 mph descents. We used to decend some hairy rocky mountian passes for grins, and used our brakes plenty. But I've seen even moderately powered hubmotors walk right out of dropouts, bending the hell out of em. Don't ask me why it's so harsh, I just have seen that it is. It simply doesn't compare to braking loads. I speculate that the reason is that you don't have flat axles on a regular wheel. It can't have the leverage a flat axle on a hubmotor has. It just pries dropouts apart.

Thinking a bit more, braking forces on the dropouts are going to be different. If rotational, any slip does no damage. On the flat axle, rotation is always going to cause damage. Got a fork you can destruct test? Put a 10 mm square bar in the dropouts. Then apply rotational force with 10 cm long wrench. You'll damage the dropouts. This is what happens if your axle nuts work loose one bit. The pulling force is no problem. It's rotating a square bar in your dropouts that destroys them. Got a good dentist? And orthopedist?

This thread on fork drop-out failure experiments:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195

And this one:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32190

No pictures, though there was someone (neptronix?) who had a fork that broke, though I can't remember whether there was a front hub motor installed. EDIT: Found it: he hit a car and the alloy fork broke.

Regardless, though others have run hub motors on aluminum forks and had no mishaps, I don't want to take chnces. YMMV... Steel USUALLY deforms before it fractures. Most other fork materials don't; they fail catastrophically.

[Russell]

My first ebike was an aluminum frame early 90's Raleigh touring bike with a slender chromoly front fork and 700x35 tires. The bike performed well but was very harsh riding on the often rough-as-a-cob Wisconsin roads.

Raleigh1.jpg (56.01 KiB) Viewed 1251 times

I was looking for a replacement and remembering the ride of my '85 Trek I too looked for a steel-framed bike. I whittled the short list to the Marin Muirwoods and the Kona Smoke 29er.

Kona 008a.jpg (117.06 KiB) Viewed 1251 times

The Kona with it's bigger tires (700x47 and later 700x50) was quite a bit smoother than the Raleigh, but I found I wanted disc brakes (I wished I had chosen the Marin).

Just recently I bought a new Jeep Commanche 29'er on ebay for half retail ($150 delivered). It has an aluminum frame but a front suspension fork with steel lowers. I swapped over as many parts as I could from the Raleigh and because I had them, and because they could squeeze under the fenders, mounted up a pair of Kenda Kwick Rollers (700x40). I only just completed it and have gone on only one short ride but it is smoother than either of the previous bikes.

IMAGE001 (2).JPG (90.3 KiB) Viewed 1251 times

As luck would have it the very next day after I won the Jeep on eBay I found a 2010 Redline D440 1x8 on Craigslist. I snapped it up right away and it arrived the same day as the Jeep. I haven't ridden it yet and quite honestly there are a number of things about the frame that bug me. I'm trying to figure out what to do with it because I am happy about the way the Jeep turned out. I may finally lace up a Mac motor I've been sitting on for over a year for this bike.

IMAGE003.JPG (88.54 KiB) Viewed 1251 times

-R

[iperov]

This thread on fork drop-out failure experiments:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195

didnt saw a photos of damaged forks...

[TonyReynolds]

Nice post, Russell...

That Kona Smoke 2-9 DOES look sweet! I've been looking on Craigslist for the following:

1. Marin Muirwoods
2. Kona Smoke 2-9
3. Kona Sutra
4. Novara Ponderosa
5. Novara ETA
6. Surly Karate Monkey
7. Surly Ogre

Not much chance of finding an Ogre frame on CL; it's a new frame (more road-worthy), based on the Karate Monkey.

Pretty certain that I'm going to forego suspension and rely on the tires for cushion. Not having a suspension fork makes mounting fenders and a front rack easier. I'd like to carry another A123 11.5 Ah battery, possibly on a front rack.

I hadn't though about the Kona Sutra before until I saw it on the Kona site. It's one, sweet bike, and has disc brakes, which teh Surly Long Haul Trucker won't have until spring 2012.

[TonyReynolds]

This might be a good place to start from:



That is, if the guy will ship from Dallas to Seattle. $375 is a good price for a steel frame with fenders, rack, bar extensions, etc. Looks to be in nearly unused condition. Frame, at 18", might be a touch on the small side for me at 5'11" though. I could always add a front disc later with a shock...

[TonyReynolds]

Well, I never heard back from the guy in Dallas regarding the Kona Smoke, and it had a 17" fame anyway, so I've moved on.

Been looking at The Niner MCR, but they're simply too expensive and, like the Novara Ponderosa, have no good way to mount fenders or a rack.

I've also looked at the Novara Safari, which gets RAVE reviews BUT, it's linited to 700x47 tires, and I want to go bigger. Plus the fact that for 2011 and 2012 it lost disc brakes (but gained a steel frame). It would make a great commuter...

I found a Redline D440 that looks as if it's NOS on eBay and will be keeping an eye on that over the next 24 hours. It really does have what I'm looking for and gets good scores from users. The 2010 (and 2009) have V-brakes, but include braze-ons for discs. I figure this route would be the easiest as far as getting a good-quality steel bike and swapping part from my Diamondback Century. I can add a mondo disc brake to the fromt later (keeping the V-brake in the rear), as the front is where the disc brake does the most good. I like the 1x9 gearing, which with my MAC kit and 11-32 freewheel would become a 1x7. That suits me fine. One less set of controls on the handlebars.



I'm still looking for a Marin Muirwoods as well, but those (in my size) seem not to be available on CL or eBay, and the ones that I can find are older, so no disc brakes.

The dream is alive!

[Russell]

I thought the D440 would be perfect but it is something of a disappointment, in fact I haven't even ridden it yet. Of course much of that has to do with the fact that I took delivery of two bikes the same day and had both disassembled in my living room for quite a few weeks while I tried this and that. While I am happy about the way the inexpensive Jeep Comanche turned out I'm still not sure what i'm going to do with the 2010 Redline D440 1x8. It's the little things about the D440 frame that bug me; like the fact they didn't contour the right side chainstay so it's difficult to get a good chainline with larger chainrings, and the fact that the stock crankset has a built-in 5mm offset, to compensate for an odd frame tube offset I think. In any event a new crankset I bought for it didn't fit right so I'm back to the original 32T single for now. They also put threaded rear rack mounting holes on the seat stays but no proper braze-ons on the rear drop-outs for a rear rack. I used some 'p' clamps on the seat stays instead which worked out but does raise the rack pretty high though that may not be a bad thing. I did install a set of cheap disc brakes which I picked up when I placed an order for a number of items from a Chinese vendor. The handlebars were SUPER-w i d e ( if I recall right, 69cm). The bars are really thick too which caused me to break my tubing cutter when I tried to trim them down. I transferred it to the Jeep bike in place of some rather heavy steel bars and put a straight bar on the D440, mainly so I could mount up a front bag which wouldn't fit on the oversized bars. Furthermore the seat tube angle is a bit too steep for my taste. I changed the saddle to get a little more rearward travel because finding a 27.0mm seatpost with a bit more rear offset proved to be difficult.

Anyway the Redline is back together after trying numerous different parts on it. I'm still mulling over what to do with it. Rear motor? Front motor? Dual motors? Direct drive or geared? I haven't made up my mind. I would however NOT recommend the bike...but who knows that opinion might change if I ever ride the thing

-R

[TonyReynolds]

Good info.

I've found two brand-new 2010 Redline D440s, one in Connecticut and one in Tennessee. The one in CT was $400 but the guy said it would take $140 to ship it FedEx to Seattle. The one in TN is $425 and the guys checking on shipping; he says about $100. These are both from bike shops. ARGGGH! $500+ is half way to a custom-configured Karate Monkey...

Problem with teh D440 is they're hard to find. That tells me that Russell's experience notwithstanding, people like them. Also, the larger size frames don't come up that often. I have to have at least a 19".

The Marin Muirwoods is $699 (plus tax if I don't snag one from Oregon) and has disc brakes installed, but by all accounts the brakes are cheap and only 'adequate'. Going though Oregon to California and back this week so I might stop in Portland on the way home. Difference bewteen ad D440 (shipped) and a no-tax Muirwoods is $200 clams, $266 with tax. That bbuys a mondo disc for the from a larger chain ring and other goodies.

GT Peace 29ers are almost all single-speeds, smaller frames and none are available new.

A guy in Portland has a Niner MCR from in Large for $275. That's very tempting if I could get fenders and rack to work. Half the price of the Karate Monley, but the KM comes with a rigid for and this frame has none. Also KM has all the braze-ons...