Marin Muirwoods eBike (3RD BUILD)

[TonyReynolds]

why need torque arm on steel fork??

I have a rear gear motor, but even so, most of the experienced wrenches here will recommend additional torque plates, even with a steel frame. A steel frame DOESN'T mean that I won't need to run torque arms, it DOES mean a more forgiving ride and the OPTION of possibly installing a matching motor on teh front fork at a later date. It's not recommended to install a 500W MAC on an aluminum fork...

[iperov]

i have no torq arms on my standard mag fork. No problems.
Show me photo of any damaged fork

[TonyReynolds]

i have no torq arms on my standard mag fork. No problems.
Show me photo of any damaged fork

From Dogman:

It's not the "strength" that's the problem. It's the way carbon, and alloy fail. All at once.

Having said that, I am running a front motor on alloy forks. The use of a properly fitted pair of torque arms helps prevent the load that will crack my dropouts.

So why not use two torque arms and put it on a carbon fork? One reason is that the carbon fork may not be capable of taking the side load on the fork, in the spot where the torque arm is attached. You could break the whole fork off, instead of cracking just the dropouts.

But the real reason it would be dumb, is a motor is going to simply ruin a sweet riding carbon bike. Motorize a steel fork road bike that weighs twice as much, and rides just as good once motorized.

One more point. I'm too dumb to follow your calculations. But this I know. I've never had braking forces screw up a dropout on a bike, not even on 50 mph descents. We used to decend some hairy rocky mountian passes for grins, and used our brakes plenty. But I've seen even moderately powered hubmotors walk right out of dropouts, bending the hell out of em. Don't ask me why it's so harsh, I just have seen that it is. It simply doesn't compare to braking loads. I speculate that the reason is that you don't have flat axles on a regular wheel. It can't have the leverage a flat axle on a hubmotor has. It just pries dropouts apart.

Thinking a bit more, braking forces on the dropouts are going to be different. If rotational, any slip does no damage. On the flat axle, rotation is always going to cause damage. Got a fork you can destruct test? Put a 10 mm square bar in the dropouts. Then apply rotational force with 10 cm long wrench. You'll damage the dropouts. This is what happens if your axle nuts work loose one bit. The pulling force is no problem. It's rotating a square bar in your dropouts that destroys them. Got a good dentist? And orthopedist?

This thread on fork drop-out failure experiments:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195

And this one:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=32190

No pictures, though there was someone (neptronix?) who had a fork that broke, though I can't remember whether there was a front hub motor installed. EDIT: Found it: he hit a car and the alloy fork broke.

Regardless, though others have run hub motors on aluminum forks and had no mishaps, I don't want to take chnces. YMMV... Steel USUALLY deforms before it fractures. Most other fork materials don't; they fail catastrophically.

[Russell]

My first ebike was an aluminum frame early 90's Raleigh touring bike with a slender chromoly front fork and 700x35 tires. The bike performed well but was very harsh riding on the often rough-as-a-cob Wisconsin roads.

Raleigh1.jpg (56.01 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

I was looking for a replacement and remembering the ride of my '85 Trek I too looked for a steel-framed bike. I whittled the short list to the Marin Muirwoods and the Kona Smoke 29er.

Kona 008a.jpg (117.06 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

The Kona with it's bigger tires (700x47 and later 700x50) was quite a bit smoother than the Raleigh, but I found I wanted disc brakes (I wished I had chosen the Marin).

Just recently I bought a new Jeep Commanche 29'er on ebay for half retail ($150 delivered). It has an aluminum frame but a front suspension fork with steel lowers. I swapped over as many parts as I could from the Raleigh and because I had them, and because they could squeeze under the fenders, mounted up a pair of Kenda Kwick Rollers (700x40). I only just completed it and have gone on only one short ride but it is smoother than either of the previous bikes.

IMAGE001 (2).JPG (90.3 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

As luck would have it the very next day after I won the Jeep on eBay I found a 2010 Redline D440 1x8 on Craigslist. I snapped it up right away and it arrived the same day as the Jeep. I haven't ridden it yet and quite honestly there are a number of things about the frame that bug me. I'm trying to figure out what to do with it because I am happy about the way the Jeep turned out. I may finally lace up a Mac motor I've been sitting on for over a year for this bike.

IMAGE003.JPG (88.54 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

-R

[iperov]

This thread on fork drop-out failure experiments:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195

didnt saw a photos of damaged forks...

[TonyReynolds]

Nice post, Russell...

That Kona Smoke 2-9 DOES look sweet! I've been looking on Craigslist for the following:

1. Marin Muirwoods
2. Kona Smoke 2-9
3. Kona Sutra
4. Novara Ponderosa
5. Novara ETA
6. Surly Karate Monkey
7. Surly Ogre

Not much chance of finding an Ogre frame on CL; it's a new frame (more road-worthy), based on the Karate Monkey.

Pretty certain that I'm going to forego suspension and rely on the tires for cushion. Not having a suspension fork makes mounting fenders and a front rack easier. I'd like to carry another A123 11.5 Ah battery, possibly on a front rack.

I hadn't though about the Kona Sutra before until I saw it on the Kona site. It's one, sweet bike, and has disc brakes, which teh Surly Long Haul Trucker won't have until spring 2012.

[TonyReynolds]

This might be a good place to start from:



That is, if the guy will ship from Dallas to Seattle. $375 is a good price for a steel frame with fenders, rack, bar extensions, etc. Looks to be in nearly unused condition. Frame, at 18", might be a touch on the small side for me at 5'11" though. I could always add a front disc later with a shock...

[TonyReynolds]

Well, I never heard back from the guy in Dallas regarding the Kona Smoke, and it had a 17" fame anyway, so I've moved on.

Been looking at The Niner MCR, but they're simply too expensive and, like the Novara Ponderosa, have no good way to mount fenders or a rack.

I've also looked at the Novara Safari, which gets RAVE reviews BUT, it's linited to 700x47 tires, and I want to go bigger. Plus the fact that for 2011 and 2012 it lost disc brakes (but gained a steel frame). It would make a great commuter...

I found a Redline D440 that looks as if it's NOS on eBay and will be keeping an eye on that over the next 24 hours. It really does have what I'm looking for and gets good scores from users. The 2010 (and 2009) have V-brakes, but include braze-ons for discs. I figure this route would be the easiest as far as getting a good-quality steel bike and swapping part from my Diamondback Century. I can add a mondo disc brake to the fromt later (keeping the V-brake in the rear), as the front is where the disc brake does the most good. I like the 1x9 gearing, which with my MAC kit and 11-32 freewheel would become a 1x7. That suits me fine. One less set of controls on the handlebars.



I'm still looking for a Marin Muirwoods as well, but those (in my size) seem not to be available on CL or eBay, and the ones that I can find are older, so no disc brakes.

The dream is alive!

[Russell]

I thought the D440 would be perfect but it is something of a disappointment, in fact I haven't even ridden it yet. Of course much of that has to do with the fact that I took delivery of two bikes the same day and had both disassembled in my living room for quite a few weeks while I tried this and that. While I am happy about the way the inexpensive Jeep Comanche turned out I'm still not sure what i'm going to do with the 2010 Redline D440 1x8. It's the little things about the D440 frame that bug me; like the fact they didn't contour the right side chainstay so it's difficult to get a good chainline with larger chainrings, and the fact that the stock crankset has a built-in 5mm offset, to compensate for an odd frame tube offset I think. In any event a new crankset I bought for it didn't fit right so I'm back to the original 32T single for now. They also put threaded rear rack mounting holes on the seat stays but no proper braze-ons on the rear drop-outs for a rear rack. I used some 'p' clamps on the seat stays instead which worked out but does raise the rack pretty high though that may not be a bad thing. I did install a set of cheap disc brakes which I picked up when I placed an order for a number of items from a Chinese vendor. The handlebars were SUPER-w i d e ( if I recall right, 69cm). The bars are really thick too which caused me to break my tubing cutter when I tried to trim them down. I transferred it to the Jeep bike in place of some rather heavy steel bars and put a straight bar on the D440, mainly so I could mount up a front bag which wouldn't fit on the oversized bars. Furthermore the seat tube angle is a bit too steep for my taste. I changed the saddle to get a little more rearward travel because finding a 27.0mm seatpost with a bit more rear offset proved to be difficult.

Anyway the Redline is back together after trying numerous different parts on it. I'm still mulling over what to do with it. Rear motor? Front motor? Dual motors? Direct drive or geared? I haven't made up my mind. I would however NOT recommend the bike...but who knows that opinion might change if I ever ride the thing

-R

[TonyReynolds]

Good info.

I've found two brand-new 2010 Redline D440s, one in Connecticut and one in Tennessee. The one in CT was $400 but the guy said it would take $140 to ship it FedEx to Seattle. The one in TN is $425 and the guys checking on shipping; he says about $100. These are both from bike shops. ARGGGH! $500+ is half way to a custom-configured Karate Monkey...

Problem with teh D440 is they're hard to find. That tells me that Russell's experience notwithstanding, people like them. Also, the larger size frames don't come up that often. I have to have at least a 19".

The Marin Muirwoods is $699 (plus tax if I don't snag one from Oregon) and has disc brakes installed, but by all accounts the brakes are cheap and only 'adequate'. Going though Oregon to California and back this week so I might stop in Portland on the way home. Difference bewteen ad D440 (shipped) and a no-tax Muirwoods is $200 clams, $266 with tax. That bbuys a mondo disc for the from a larger chain ring and other goodies.

GT Peace 29ers are almost all single-speeds, smaller frames and none are available new.

A guy in Portland has a Niner MCR from in Large for $275. That's very tempting if I could get fenders and rack to work. Half the price of the Karate Monley, but the KM comes with a rigid for and this frame has none. Also KM has all the braze-ons...

[BB11]

How about a custom build based on an On-One bikes Inbred 29er ?



They're a UK company, but recently started selling online from Portland, Oregon for customers in USA and Canada :

http://shop.titusti.com/collections/frames

What makes the frame interesting for an e-bike project are the removeable drop-outs (or "swap-outs" as they call them...) :



It looks like the ones supplied are alloy, but it shouldn't be too difficult to make up some steel ones. No messing around with torque arms / plates
I guess you could even shave them down a bit to get an 8 or 9 speed freewheel in there without having to respace the frame.

[biohazardman]

This thread on fork drop-out failure experiments:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195

didnt saw a photos of damaged forks...

You have been warned of the dangers and injuries caused by motors damaging front forks and people going over the bars. I have personally seen the pics many of which may no longer exist due to corrupted back up software for the forum. I have also read the posts of several here on the forum that went through plenty of suffering due to the experience of going over the bars as the failure occurred. There are plenty of pics and stories of rear dropout failures as well. You don't have to believe them if you don't want to that is your choice. You may be a lightweight rider running a low powered motor on beautiful roads so nothing has happened as yet. It may be that it never happens so if you want to take the chance do so. If you think of others and realize your injury affects many and not just yourself then you will likely build with safety in mind. Still in the end what you choose to believe and how you choose to build your bike is entirely up to you.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195&start=135#p232469

[REdiculous]

I've seen beefy-looking BMX forks fail on flat ground without a motor attached. It was a smaller rider, under 150lbs, just doing a wheelie - it didn't happen from X-Games style jumping.

It's not that big of a deal when it happens at 5mph in a parking lot, like I've seen, but it'd be totally different at speed and in traffic (with a heavier bike).

[TonyReynolds]

Well, after weeks of looking, researching and agonizing, I ended up getting a 2012 Marin Muirwoods from REI:



Nicely spec'd, well made, understated and stealthy looking; the graphics seem to be silkscreened, are reflective and are barely discernible... I test rode the only one in my size that I've been able to find in a store in two months of looking. No one had any Redline D440's that they were willing to ship, and the frames that were available were too small. I needed a 20" frame, or close to it. The Muirwoods comes in a 20.5" and that's what I was able to find.

Riding position was comfortable and the cockpit felt perfect for my torso and arms. The brakes are improved over prior year models. Nice wide bars for good leverage.

This is gonna be fun!

Now I have to get a rear rack that will work with disc brakes, a front rack (there're lugs for that!) and transfer the rear disc to the motor, get some torque plates laser cut to reinforce the drop-outs and add Planet Bike fenders as a finishing touch.

[TonyReynolds]

This is a great platform to start with. Very stable and smooth. The work done so far is to mount by Brooks Flyer, battery pack, front rack, rear rack and Planet Bike 29er fenders.


Side view


Side view


Front rack: Jandd low front rack. This will be used for an extra 11.5 Ah battery as well as a place to mount yellow LED lights for conspicuity


Cell_man A123 triangle pack


Topeak rear rack


I may be able to mount the controller on the stainless rack stays, saving room for a large Topeak bag on the rear rack

I have a double kickstand on order from Velo Orange. The fenders and racks were very tricky to install around the disc brakes. I've primed and painted the machined rim of the 700c rear wheel I got from cell_man so that it matches the Alex rim on the front of the Muirwoods. I need to transfer all of the stuff from the Diamondback handlebars to the Marin: CA, bell and throttle, as well as the mag pickup on the front wheel for the speedo. One of the trickiest things will be mounting the rear rotor on the 8T MAC and getting it to line up with the caliper.

[TonyReynolds]

Just scored one of these hummers on close-out:



$63 plus shipping from Dennis Kirk. This helmet got a good writeup earlier this year from another member. Not full-face, but far better protection than my current bike helmet and should be quieter as it goes over the ears. Positive reviews from buyers.

EDIT: Excellent helmet, see Kingfish's review over here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23862

[TonyReynolds]

Rim is now much closer in looks to what came with the marin:



Obviously not as durable as anodizing, but at least I won't have a bright silver rim on an all black bike...

[TonyReynolds]

I spent yesterday evening swapping the tire, tube and rotor from the stock Marin wheel to the Chinese hub-motor wheel. Both measure 20mm on the inside of the rim, which is good for holding larger tires...

All went well until I tried to get the rotor off the stock wheel. I was finally able to do so with a 1/4" drive socket and the correct 'star' drive tip, the only combination that allowed me enough torque to break the blue Locktite that'd been used to secure the six machine screws. When I tried to install the rotor on teh hub-motor wheel, they bottomed-out in the provided holes and one broke off trying to back it out to add washers. Sooooo, now I have to figure out how to extract a very small broken screw. Will be studying "Screw Extraction 101".

Even with washers as spacers, I ended up with interference between the inside portion of the rear caliper and the hub-motor. I removed that portion of the caliper and used a pattern-maker file to dress the set/adjustment screw (steel) and the aluminum caliper body to try to get clearance. I only need a couple millimeters, so hopefully this will work. I also removed one of the six small screws holding the hub-motor cover, used a bit to increase the countersink and replaced the screw, as they weren't flush, but proud of the surface. I'll repeat this for the remaining five screws/holes.

I'll be taking a tracing of the rear dropouts to develop a CAD drawing to send out for laser-CNC torque plates. Not a lot of room around the dropouts what with racks, fenders and disc-calipers. I can see how (in some ways) a bike with rim brakes can be easier to work with. My previous two attempts were certainly a piece of cake compared to this one...

[TonyReynolds]

Last evening was spent massaging the rear disc caliper to create clearance for the hubmotor, as well as trying to extract to broken machine screw from the hubmotor coverplate. Never having had bike disc brakes before, I was able to figure out how to get some adjustment to move the cliper outboard. My rotor now fits and the motor housing doesn't rub on the caliper. I was however, less than succesful at removing the screw. I wasn't able to drill a pilot hole directly on-center, but tried left-hand threaded drill-bits as well as an extraction set to no avail. At this point I'm looking at tapping new threads for a slightly larger screw for that position and (most likely) ordering another coverplate from cell_man to replace the one I messed up.



Oh well, at least the rear brake now works! Now on to creating a torque plate!

[TonyReynolds]

Coming along:



Rear wheel and motor are installed. Waiting for Nordlocks to come in the mail. Not certain how to get the Nordlock washers over the motor harness as the wire clip that goes to the controller will have to be dismantled to get the Nordlock threaded over the harness to the axle.

The center stand came in the mail from Velo Orange and is installed (sort of). It looks like it will work, but there's interference between it and the control cables that are routed underneath the bottom bracket. Looks like it's Dremel time... The nice thing about this center stand is that it gets more narrow as it swings into the stowed position, yet is wide when on the ground for good stability. Relatively light too. I don't care too much that it's not steel; I won't be sitting on the bike when it's on the stand. I just wanted it to be stable when parked.

Probably pretty ho-hum to most around here, but it's exciting for me to get something that more closely meets my needs, and the total cost is still WAYYYYY less than I would have spent had I gone with the Ohm 750 last spring, with more watt-hours available, higher speed and much more scaleable and user configurable than a Bionx-based system.

Hope this ends up being useful for someone.

[TonyReynolds]

I thought the controller might fit on the support arms for the rear rack. Test fit shows it to be a perfect fit:



The advantage of going with a larger-framed bike shines here. The DiamondBack has a compact-road geometry with a shorter wheelbase. There's much more room on the Muirwoods. The rear holes of the controller line up with the rack support rails; I'll have to use zip-ties or fab a bracket for the front holes. I'll most likely prime and paint the controller black before mounting it. I'm going for stealth, and a largish, bright aluminum box with wire doesn't help me there.

Now to get all the stuff off the bars of the old bike and onto the new...

[TonyReynolds]

Well, major disappointment today, when I tried to fit the Schwable 622x60 tire to the rear of the Muirwoods. The 622x60 on the front had been almost impossibly tight (not with the frame, but with the front fender), so when I looked at the rear, I assumed there might be a clearance issue with the front derailler and sure nuf, there is:



I was really hoping to get more float for comfort from the fatter tires.

I looked at the diameter specs on Schwable's website, and going down the a 622x50 would *probably* work, but that's another $100 for two tires. I got a deal on the Big Apples: $55 for the two, including shipping, like new with 25 miles on the tires. Yes, I could have checked the Schwable website BEFORE buying the Big Apples, but the frame looked like it had tons of room around the stock tires, so it seemed like they'd work. Looks like I'll have to go back to the 622x42 Continentals that came with the bike.

I'll just have to suck it up and eat the bumps.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Well, major disappointment today, when I tried to fit the Schwable 622x60 tire to the rear of the Muirwoods. The 622x60 on the front had been almost impossibly tight (note with the frame, but with the front fender), so when I looked at the rear, I assumed there might be a clearance issue with the front derailler and sure nuf, there is:



I was really hoping to get more float for comfort from the fatter tires.

I looked at the diameter specs on Schwable's website, and going down the a 622x50 would *probably* work, but that's another $100 for two tires. I got a deal on the Big Apples: $55 for the two, including shipping, like new with 25 miles on the tires. Yes, I could have checked the Schwable website BEFORE buying the Big Apples, but the frame looked like it had tons of room around the stock tires, so it seemed like they'd work. Looks like I'll have to go back to the 622x42 Continentals that came with the bike.

I'll just have to suck it up and eat the bumps.

622 x 60 Big Apples, so these are 28 inch tires? Sorry to hear your tires don't fit! That is still my favorite tire, but a good less expensive tire with similar performance is the CST Cyclops for about $15, might even be able to get them at your local bike shop.

Also, I am curious if your hub motor came with screws for the brake disc? It seems most of them are a very different size than standard, I would guess generally shorter.

Sorry to hear about that screw breaking! That is one bear of a problem to fix, especially in aluminum. Have you looked at a heli-coil? You might be able to drill out for the larger size, add heli-coil and then still be able to use the standard sized screw.

Nice looking set-up! I like the black-out look.

[TonyReynolds]

622 x 60 Big Apples, so these are 28 inch tires? Sorry to hear your tires don't fit! That is still my favorite tire, but a good less expensive tire with similar performance is the CST Cyclops for about $15, might even be able to get them at your local bike shop.

Also, I am curious if your hub motor came with screws for the brake disc? It seems most of them are a very different size than standard, I would guess generally shorter.

Sorry to hear about that screw breaking! That is one bear of a problem to fix, especially in aluminum. Have you looked at a heli-coil? You might be able to drill out for the larger size, add heli-coil and then still be able to use the standard sized screw.

Nice looking set-up! I like the black-out look.

Yeah, "28", "29er", 700c are referencing a 622xXX rim, where XX is the tire cross section and 622 is the rim diameter. Confusing, which is why I like the metric sizing system. I'll look into the Cyclops...

As for the disc screws, yes, the motor came with them. At this point, sometime I'll need to take e cover plate off the motor and drill it out from the back side in a drill press and yes, the helicoil nods like a good way to go. That or get a new cover from cell_man.

Glad you like the all-black look, wasn't sure I would but it looks really sharp. Good thing it's crummy rain up here so I don't have to feel bad about taking so long getting his thing on the road.

[BATFINK]

Nice build Tony. Nightmare with the tyres. I have 2 of the big apples sitting waiting to go on the right bike but I was a little disappointed with how thin the sidewalls of those tyres are. Maybe you should invest in some sort of seat suspension. I have been recommended one of those suspension seat posts by cloud 9. maybe that would do the trick for you.

What is your battery setup and weight if batteries?

How will you hide the cables from your controller and make it waterproof?

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