Kinni's E-bike questions and stuffs

[dogman]

Schoolhouse rock is cool.

I still tend to say get the wife kit, the rear 2810 9c. But at 18s the top speed will be less than 30 mph. I think you'd have to get a different controller than his kit though, I think it's only a 48v one. The main advantage will be when you go off road riding, or climb steep hills. A slower top speed means a better efficiency too, since the wattage a motor can draw is less at slower speeds.
Lyens 12 fet 40 amp 72v controller is popular. ( look for Lyens in the for sale new) That's theoretically 3000w. Call it 4 hp.

But Methys has some very nice fast motors too. I bet you'd love 40 mph. Hopefully the cops won't notice you, but they might. Bear in mind that a fast ebike is an unlicenced, illegal, homemade motorcylce. 30 mph usually doesn't attract too much notice, but 40 mph will. Another reason I like the slower windings. Same HP, but less noticeable top speed.

Heres where you see vids of my even slower 2812 motor on 3000w. http://www.youtube.com/user/Dogman5018? ... foFxm1GGwk

Yeah, it's not a fast ebike, but she rocks in the dirt.

[Kinni420]

who wouldnt love 40 mph on a bike but at this time of year Im a little scared of 10. slower, more eficient is great atm. I dont mind a slower motor. Ive gotten a speeding ticket on a bike..I beat it lol. but 40mph? naw. 30 would be fantastic.

[Kinni420]

So i took a good look at methods post and his site.

great price, great kit, just have a few questions for him and will PM him here after this.

gonna go with the 18s2p setup for this kit (2810R 72v with the 40A upgrade you suggested dog.) Any further condiserations? (torque arms etc?)
Got the marin bike for $16.11. Its too small for me(17 1/2"), needs a different gooseneck so I dont feel like im gonna fall over the front will post a decent pic in a bit here.

BTW since it hasnt been mentioned yet. For the above battery set up can you reccomend a charger and anything else I might need to keep these batteries running at best maintenance? (outside of anything in the kit?)
also, any idea of shipping times for batteries?

[jkbrigman]

So i took a good look at methods post and his site.

great price, great kit, just have a few questions for him and will PM him here after this.

gonna go with the 18s2p setup for this kit (2810R 72v with the 40A upgrade you suggested dog.) Any further condiserations? (torque arms etc?)
Got the marin bike for $16.11. Its too small for me(17 1/2"), needs a different gooseneck so I dont feel like im gonna fall over the front will post a decent pic in a bit here.

BTW since it hasnt been mentioned yet. For the above battery set up can you reccomend a charger and anything else I might need to keep these batteries running at best maintenance? (outside of anything in the kit?)
also, any idea of shipping times for batteries?

Hi Kinni -
I bought essentially the "wife kit" from Methods (Patrick) and I'm working on getting it installed on a recumbent. Some comments I'll make:
- I got the 25A controller. It can handle up to 88V. I plan to use it with 18S 2-or-3P also.
- I got the mod to handle 40A. I don't expect to need that much current but we'll see.
- I bought the "beefy torque arm"
- I haven't built my battery yet, I'm experimenting and learning using a brick or two of Turnigy LiPo. I bought a Hobby King "iCharger 106b+" balance charger. It will charge up-to a 6S brick. You can parallel all your bricks on that one charger and it will run at up to 250W.
- When I've got a battery I'm happy with, I may buy a small bulk charger and keep it at work for quick, simple pack charges to finish out the daily commute
- It took me a little over 2 weeks to get the LiPo bricks I'm playing with from Hobby King's "International Warehouse".

JKB

[Kinni420]

well since the post seems to have taken a big crap over the weekend Ill repost and try to get a couple more questions answered. So far Ive settled on:

6 packs 6s1p lipo for 72v 10aH 25C
methods wife kit:
2810R 9C laced into 26” rim (6x10 windings)
36V – 72V 25A controller with IRFB4110’s and 100V caps (upgraded to the 40A controller)
Large screen direct plug-in CA
Split-twist throttle (actually going with the full throttle)
adding the "Beefy torque arm"

just need to add a charger and anything else you all might recommend. Just about ready to drop the cash for this bad baby. Thanks for Idea #1 Jkb
Your input is greatly appreciated.

[shock]

If your going to go over 12cells I would recommend a direct drive hub, as any geared hub over 48v is going to start cooking you breakfast. So good choice on the 10 turn DD hub.

I use 2x AC6 chargers with good results. Always reliable and always balanced.

[DAND214]

I have thesehttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=16207 and Zippys. I like the turnigy better.
Great price and they have better grade wire on them. Also they are staying well ballanced more than the Zippys.

I think you should go with the half twist, much easier to handle and they don't pull off if you grab them wrong.

Dan

[dogman]

Curious how you get 72v from 6s packs, You can run 18s, 15 ah from those packs though. about 64v nominal. 20s for 72v.

18s on the 6x10 should get you a solid 25 mph for sure. You'll have a very reliable setup there.

[Kinni420]

my math fails me. When i count V I use 4 * (# of packs). guess i really should use 3.6

[dogman]

Yeah I get it. It's kind of wierd eh, that nominal voltage is so close to empty. 3.9v per cell makes sense to me for nominal voltage. More the middle of the discharge curve.

Lots of us using lipo now, so it makes just talking in number of cells in series undersandable to most. So now a lot of us just say 20s, rather than 72v.

[Kinni420]

basicly Ive been looking at 18p2s for cost.

6x ZIPPY Flightmax 5000mAh 6S1P 25C (64v 10 Ah @ 18s2p)= $285.72
4x Turnigy nano-tech 4500mah 10S 25~50C Lipo Pack (72v 9Ah @ 20s2p) = $399.96

is it really worth the extra $115 bucks with less Ah?

what if I went 24s2p with the same batteries? cost would be less than the 4 10s @ $381.04 (86v 10Ah) lol more power someone stop me before I hit 100v.

Tomorrow is my birthday!!!! send gifts NOW!

BTW is there an Ebike chat forum with voice? i.e ventrilo, mumble etc? I wait two days for a short answer but could learn a ton in 30 min on voice chat. Or if someone wouldn't mind spending a bit with me on a chat program before i spend a small fortune on something just to replace it?

[dogman]

I'd go with 18s of the 25c. You're not building a racing bike yet. 10 ah of 25c is quite a few amps with not that much sag. Cut the c rate in half like normal, and you still have a usable 125 amps of power there.

Ought to do ya for the first build.

[Kinni420]

going with Shock's recomendation of the GT A-6-10 200W Balance charger & discharger. good price, fair reviews. $43 bux falls in my budget well.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... arger.html

[shock]

Actually I use the AC6

http://www.hobbypartz.com/thac6smbachw.html

and 2x of them. They are the same price ($44) but use 12vdc or 120vac input. I use em in the house to charge or in the field on my truck battery. Very good charger for the money. It only does half the rate (5a) of the chargers you mentioned though...

[Kinni420]

oops where did i get that from

[dogman]

Have a look at EP buddy for chargers. US based, so returning one is possible.

[Kinni420]

ya I like that. any comments on this one?

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... ucts_id=73 G.T. Power A606 Battery Charger

with

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... c1qfilo9r0 ParaBoard-XH T-plug

[dogman]

50 watts will take all day to charge a few packs. It's really too small and slow.

My personal rig uses two 150w ones like this one.

http://epbuddy.com/index.php?main_page= ... ucts_id=29
I believe my chargers are idendtical or close to it, but with HK branding. I run both on a 350w meanwell. For me, it's a good setup. The i-chargers might be better, but this has been working fine for me for more than a year.

You need the meanwell to have a decent wattage PS, so you may as well get at least some more wattage on the charger. Shocking what good charging costs, but it's mandatory to charge lipo safely.

[Kinni420]

so, youre charging 4 or 6 battery packs at once on two chargers? If not how do I balance all those cells perfectly? Im still a little fuzzy on how to charge everything properly.

good suggestion. thanks for noticing.

Just got an email back from patrick.

To be honest I dont like your charger choice one bit. There are two reasons:

1) You will have to charge your pack in steps - 3 steps - that sucks and leads to imbalance. Dont even think about taking your pack apart to charge in parallel and discharge in series. This always, always, ALWAYS leads to mistakes that cost you a lot of time and burnt fingers.

2) That charger is only 200W. 66V 10Ah = 660Wh so that means it will take a minimum of 4 hours to charge your pack. More likely much longer. 750W is a nice charge power.

I understand you are making due - but please try to get away from changing pack configuration to charge ASAP. At least 1 in 3 of my customers who try this end up making a big mistake. At least 2 in 3 make a small mistake. Take it from a guy who has burnt the skin off his fingers many times..... and I dont make mistakes.

[shock]

I charge 6 packs at once with 2 chargers. 3 parallel per charger. I don;t have my balance taps paralleled. I just rotate the balance taps every charge, so every third charge single packs are balanced. Has worked very well so far.

[jkbrigman]

so, youre charging 4 or 6 battery packs at once on two chargers? If not how do I balance all those cells perfectly? Im still a little fuzzy on how to charge everything properly.

Hey Kinni - check out my "Basic LiPo Charging" thread at:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36097

Beware: the priority of my thread is to explain balance charging and how I'm using my 250W iCharger. In doing so, I do have to reconfigure my pack to charge it in parallel and discharge it in series (and I show the harnesses I've made for each operation).

This means I'm violating the idea Patrick puts forth, but I agree with him - you don't want to reconfigure the battery between use and charging. But I don't yet know how much battery I need for my mission - when I do, then I'll build out the battery and not reconfigure it between charging and use.

Patrick is right about wanting as much charging power as possible, but don't be afraid to start out smaller. I'm very happy charging at 250W (I sized my system similar to what "dogman" uses). When I figure out the battery size I need, then I'll spring for a higher-power bulk charger. I'll probably go with 450-500 watts.

JKB

[jkbrigman]

And if you want to look at my machine in it's current state, check out my build thread at:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=35076

Or just click on the link in my .sig...

JKB

[Kinni420]

im spent the day burning my brain trying to figure out how to go from series to parallel for charging. Im pretty smart but wtf? I could use a lot more wires and some switches, would rather not. currently working on a pattern for building a battery/controller box in the triangle out of plastic. Ill post some drawings later

BTW methods wife kit is on the way to my door.

[jkbrigman]

im spent the day burning my brain trying to figure out how to go from series to parallel for charging. Im pretty smart but wtf? I could use a lot more wires and some switches, would rather not. currently working on a pattern for building a battery/controller box in the triangle out of plastic. Ill post some drawings later

BTW methods wife kit is on the way to my door.

Good job on the Wife Kit!

It's not too difficult on the series vs. parallel thing. The way to think of it is "parallel first, series second". You want to work in "units of parallel blocks", then put those blocks in series. Photos in my Recumbent Commuter build thread.

Folks will advise you to go ahead and get a BMS-type product whether it's methods or ggoodrum. That can work out the question of serial vs. parallel. But you don't have to buy one right away. You can balance the cells with an RC balancing charger. Photos of that are in my "Basic LiPo Charging" thread.

I don't have a BMS yet because I don't know how big the battery needs to be. I'm working on that question tonight. When I size it properly then I'll buy a BMS or make one myself.

[Kinni420]

I understand the whole series vs parralel thingy, its just how do you get around switching from series to parallel? I mean with 2 chargers, Im looking at charging three batteries per, all in parallel; when Im running 2p during discharge. seems like I have to unplug everything from the discharge harness, then replug into the chargers harness? I read your lipo charging post cover to cover twice. and I dont recall you showing anything about building a balancing harness. (if its possible).

great stuff to see it step by step btw.

doesnt the Cycle Anylyst work somewhat like a BMS? And im smart enough to know to shut it down before minimum (65.7)

Voltage Cutout: A low voltage cutout is used to protect a battery pack from being discharged too deeply, which can cause cell reversals in NiMH/NiCad packs, permanent cell damage in Lithium packs, and sulfation in Lead Acid batteries. The programmable low voltage rollback allows you to set an appropriate low voltage point tailored to your pack.