Direct drive or geared?

[Chalo]

In my opinion (I'm a bike mechanic and dealer), you don't need chromoly, you really don't need disc brakes, you really really don't need 20" wheels, and you really really really don't need a folding bike. All the strength you get from small wheels and chromoly frame would be thrown away by the weak folding frame. But I'm not convinced you need anything special bike-wise at all.

However, if you are attracted to small wheels, low standover height, and chromoly steel frames, there is a bike almost any shop can get you for about $500, or roughly the same price as the Surly Troll frame with no parts on it:
http://www.origin-8.com/?page_id=91&short_code=Bully&cl1=BICYCLES


This seems like it would do a fine job of meeting your requirements.

Chalo

[deVries]

In my opinion (I'm a bike mechanic and dealer), you don't need chromoly, you really don't need disc brakes, you really really don't need 20" wheels, and you really really really don't need a folding bike. All the strength you get from small wheels and chromoly frame would be thrown away by the weak folding frame. But I'm not convinced you need anything special bike-wise at all.

However, if you are attracted to small wheels, low standover height, and chromoly steel frames, there is a bike almost any shop can get you for about $500, or roughly the same price as the Surly Troll frame with no parts on it.

Hey Rae, Chalo IS the bicycle expert I told you about.

I definitely love that 20" bike he referenced here. It's perfect for holding batteries, etc. Chalo also told me the 20" wheels would not work in the Surly Troll, so that's out the window. (The Troll would still work with 23-24" wheels, and give you plenty of stand-over height. IMO.)

But, buying an "off the shelf" bike like this 20" that Chalo just referenced is certainly a much better deal price wise. Chalo is also very certain you do not need disc brakes IF you setup the other brakes correctly. But I'll let Chalo comment about that, since he has that kind of expert experience & advice. Chalo is a "trusted source" of expert knowledge, when it comes to bicycles (and much more).

[spinningmagnets]

If you feel the Origin-8 bike shown above would work well for your needs, I recommend getting the Thudbster seatpost. I have one and I highly recommend it. It is available for about $120, so its not cheap, but it is well-made.

You may also consider BMX handlebars for a slightly more upright riding position.

Heres a link to a $21 wide comfort seat (I am 52) http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=805975

[warrah]

hello rae

You'll receive a lot of help from the endless sphere forums. I've used endless sphere almost exclusively to solve any problem i've encountered in my ebikes evolution. Your ebike buying experience will be much less painful then mine was as you are willing to seek advice and ask lots of questions. I suspect most people, most men anyway, learn primarily from trial and error, despite being aware that the endless sphere is here to help. Its a pride thing.

I read through this thread, and at some point it seemed as though the 'purchase complete ebike vs purchase parts separately' dilemma had been decided in favour of parts separately? and thats why youre considering various frame options now? Sorry if i've got it wrong, i might have missed something.

I thought i'd chip in on the frame issue. Cromoly will make sure your safe, the metal can bend with the additional force the motor exerts, whereas aluminium can become stressed with the motor forces, and might eventually break. Of course, lots of people can supply anecdotal evidence that 'my ebike is aluminium, and hasnt broken once', but physics is physics, and cromoly is the safety first option. Its a shame that the majority of bikes manufactured these days are aluminium.

If you are thinking of buying the parts separately, then there are several ways to do it. You could buy a frame, then an ebike conversion kit, which includes motor, controller, throttle/ebrakes, and sometimes (though not in the majority of cases) a battery. This route does turn the ebike into a bit of a project, but its totally do able, equivalent to a lot of household diy projects. Perhaps you are thinking of taking the bits off the ebikes you already have, and placing them on a new frame?

whatever the case, balancing weight is one of the first problems to solve. People have recommended placing the motor at the rear to make handling better with the dog trailer, which i would agree with. But it does cause an issue with placement of battery. If yourself/the motor/a rack mounted battery are all located towards the back of the bike, what tends to happen is the front pulls up when accelerating. This is one reason some people opt for front motors; it evens out the weight with the battery at the back and the motor at the front.

If the motor goes at the back, one way to balance it is to place the battery in the middle somewhere, or on a front wheel rack. These options are both diy projects, requiring some creativity.

These considerations can influence frame purchasing. For one thing, some frames dont come with holes to screw a rack into. Without a rack, placement of the battery has to be much more creative.

If you do wish to buy the parts separately, you'll beable to choose the motor you want for the kind of performance you want, and you'll be able to absorb some valuable experience in connecting the parts together, which will allow you to diagose and fix problems yourself.

If you purchase a complete ebike, beware of sales blurb. Most complete ebikes, and alot of ebike kits, are deceptively sold as 'no hassle all rounders'. No hassle all rounders dont exist. Learning why some things work and why some things dont work will help you get exactly what you want and avoid disapointment, and its really great that you are willing to ask questions and understand this subject. A competitive ebike industry isnt fully developed yet, there are few off the shelf solutions, and your approach of trying to understand is definately the best way to approach owning an ebike. The people on endless sphere forum will beable to give you realistic ideas of what different kits and ebikes can actually do in the real world, so ask as many questions as you can, and dont worry about questions being too newbie; knowledge may be an end in itself on other internet forums, and the people there can be judgmental about how much you have, but on endless sphere, i think knowledge is just a means to an end, the end being the ebike grin, the feel of riding. No one will mind where you start, they'll all just want to get you to the grin stage, however long it takes.

[Chalo]

I thought i'd chip in on the frame issue. Cromoly will make sure your safe, the metal can bend with the additional force the motor exerts, whereas aluminium can become stressed with the motor forces, and might eventually break. Of course, lots of people can supply anecdotal evidence that 'my ebike is aluminium, and hasnt broken once', but physics is physics, and cromoly is the safety first option. Its a shame that the majority of bikes manufactured these days are aluminium.

She's talking about using a front hubbie; I don't see how the frame material has any relevance to that. The motor tugging along on the fork doesn't apply forces to the frame nearly as large as those from just rolling over a bump. She should stay away from plastic ("carbon fiber") and ultra-light frames of any material, but aluminum is fine. A four pound frame made from aluminum is a lot stronger than a four pound frame made from chromoly, for example. (But if you're looking for a six pound frame, it may be much easier to find one made of chromoly or regular old high tensile steel.) I'm 6'8" tall and way over 300 pounds, and I've used aluminum frames for decades because I could get stronger ones in aluminum (in my size) than in steel.

The fork should be steel with sturdy tips, because it's more forgiving if something goes wrong with the torque arm.

Rachel,

As far as brakes are concerned, I think linear-pull brakes ("V-brakes") like those that come equipped on most applicable bikes should be more than adequate, and they are very cost-effective and easy to maintain. Make sure they are carefully adjusted and have good pads. If you need to have less lever effort, just have a local bike shop replace the brake levers with long blade motorcycle-type levers and that should do the trick.

There's no need to overthink this-- if you just want your e-bike to do a normal bike's job, then a normal bike is the right tool for that job. Take your own special needs into account, of course, but there's nothing so demanding about a sub-2hp electric motor that it overtaxes a normal bike.

Chalo

[lifereinspired]

OK, went to LBS(s) today and absolutely fell in love with the Dahon Speed series. Chromoly frame, fits both Steven and I and we just loved the feel. I thought Steven was going to cry that we couldn't take it out of the store with us today...LOL. In all seriousness, it seems to address all of our concerns of fit, feel, maneuverability, AND we fell in love with the folding feature because when I have to go to Europe for my airway treatment and later transplant, the bikes can easily go with us giving us easy mobility that doesn't cost extra (Siena will have to stay with her Godparents during that trip as traveling to Europe, even though she's a registered Service Dog is too complex).

So, please, please please please please please please please...help us figure out a way to make the motor work on one of those. We're strongly considering the Speed P8 over the D& because of the upgraded components, tires, extra gear, etc...and it's cheaper online that the lower model is locally (and they've already discounted it!) and we don't have tax. If I had all the money in the world, I'd get the Speed TR but they are hard to come by at reasonable used or sale prices and I DO have to save for a motor after all.

If you need them, I took pics of the back axle on the D7 (they didn't have a P8 locally or I would have photographed it too) but I'm guessing they're similar. I'm encouraged about what your friend said about 20"ers being stable enough etc. For the first time in a long time of trying out bikes...I finally felt I was controlling the bike and not the reverse. It's great for my frame size. It's not *quite* as much of a "low step" as I would have liked (some of the other Dahon models excel there) but it's a good trade off of chromoly frame and fit. It'll also fit better in our small apartment. I'm literally praying that we can use that bike because we love the features so much. I've seen A LOT of Dahon's w/ electric motors (but usually unaffordable) so I'm hoping that bodes well for using the Speed. Dahon says that the speed frames are the strongest they make. Good, right? (please say yes, please say yes).

OK, gonna sign off for now and go look for more deals and try to figure out if anyone actually knows how to pronounce "Dahon" correctly! LOL

Thanks!!!

[amberwolf]

how to pronounce "Dahon" correctly! LOL

http://forum.dahon.com/index.php?showto ... post&p=501

[deVries]

The fork should be steel with sturdy tips, because it's more forgiving if something goes wrong with the torque arm.

The Dahon P8 has an aluminum front fork, so the motor will need to be a rear drive set-up.

Front Fork: Dahon SlipStream, Puro U7 aluminum, patented Fusion technology, double butted tubing

Also, it stands to reason that if the front fork *must* be steel or chromoly, then it is a good thing too to have the rear drop-outs be made of steel or chromoly. There have been many issues with weak aluminum drop-outs that allowed a motor to damage or destroy the drop-out, whereas steel or chromoly do a much better job at preventing that issue from damaging the rear drop-out. IMO. That's one reason torque arms are essential too!

[deVries]

If you need them, I took pics of the back axle on the D7 (they didn't have a P8 locally or I would have photographed it too) but I'm guessing they're similar. I'm encouraged about what your friend said about 20"ers being stable enough etc.

Yes, I need to see these pics of the rear drop-out.

Also, please realize the battery will have to go ON TOP of that top tube towards the front or mounted to the front wheel in side carriers or to the handlebars. You could put the battery on a heavy duty rear rack too, but that is a compromise in weight distribution. The bike would then be "lopsided" or unbalanced in the rear end too much, IMO.

[Chalo]

[quote="lifereinspired"OK, gonna sign off for now and go look for more deals and try to figure out if anyone actually knows how to pronounce "Dahon" correctly! LOL[/quote]

It's short for David T. Hon, the founder of the company. Ergo, "day hahn". Early examples were branded Hon.

Chalo

[lifereinspired]

OK, I feel like a git b/c (as I wrote devries in a PM) I've been refreshing this thread like mad and never got any of the posts by Chalo, warrah, spinningmagnets, amberwolf. So, when deVries mentioned something about those in a PM to me, I was totally confused.

I'm definitely NOT wanting to do something unsafe, but I have to admit to have fallen in love with those Dahons.

Now, I'm not sure of whether or not we're doing a front or rear motor. I originally thought front, but was told that the rear would be better. So, I know we have some things that definitely do NOT go together (like aluminium or suspension fork w/ front motor). And it sounds like battery placement will be an issue no matter what. Just curious, what weight/size are we looking at for the battery just so I have some idea what we're dealing with. Also, we were talking and wondering what size the motor itself would be...I'm assuming from what I've gathered that a DD is best for this application? I'm just curious how much width it adds to the wheel (approx) for the one that is being considered.

Oh, here's a link to the specs on the D7...would you think that integrated, fused fork would also be chromo since the rest of the frame is? http://www.dahon.com/bikes/2011/speed-d7 (won't let me link directly to the "specs" tab)

Here are the rear hub photos of the D7:
https://picasaweb.google.com/1163694848 ... directlink

And yes, for the question regarding whether to go with a complete eBike or buy a bike and add a motor (assuming Paypal comes through with the refund on the defective ones we have sitting around) we're definitely going with the bike + motor. Can't find a ready made ebike that will fit me and do what it needs to do to assist me.

Now, I'll finish catching up on the posts but wanted to get the pics to you all.

[deVries]

We're strongly considering the Speed P8 over the D& because of the upgraded components, tires, extra gear, etc...and it's cheaper online that the lower model is locally (and they've already discounted it!) and we don't have tax.

D7 ? You indicated you want the P8 ?

D7 is UNCLEAR what it is made of. Just says Fusion tech, but so does the P8 say Fusion too adding that it's aluminum.

[deVries]

In my opinion (I'm a bike mechanic and dealer) ...and you really really really don't need a folding bike. All the strength you get from small wheels and chromoly frame would be thrown away by the weak folding frame.

However, if you are attracted to small wheels, low standover height, and chromoly steel frames, there is a bike almost any shop can get you for about $500, or roughly the same price as the Surly Troll frame with no parts on it:
http://www.origin-8.com/?page_id=91&short_code=Bully&cl1=BICYCLES

This seems like it would do a fine job of meeting your requirements.

Chalo

Chalo's Recommendation. deVries Agrees! :D

Bully.jpg (45.91 KiB) Viewed 183 times

EDIT: So Chalo, is it still doable to use a folding bike for Rachel's trailer & dog application? Is it safe enough or ? In your opinion at 10-14mph?

Might I suggest trying ONE eBike build at a time. That way if the Dahon has issues you could let Steven use it, and then you could pull the trailer-dog with this Bully 20" bike shown above instead???

[lifereinspired]

We're strongly considering the Speed P8 over the D& because of the upgraded components, tires, extra gear, etc...and it's cheaper online that the lower model is locally (and they've already discounted it!) and we don't have tax.

D7 ? You indicated you want the P8 ?

D7 is UNCLEAR what it is made of. Just says Fusion tech, but so does the P8 say Fusion too adding that it's aluminum.

Yes! If we could get what we wanted, we'd definitely get the P8. But with the talk of front motors, etc, I decided to look at the fork of the D7 to see if it was chromo. That's what I got from the "integrated" part. The P8 definitely has an "upgraded" fork that they describe in detail on another part of their website and the P8 premium fork is aluminum. http://www.dahon.com/components/slipstream-fork (only available on premium and above bikes)

I was just thinking of the D7 if we really needed the chromo fork & if it had it as a possible alternative. From a value standpoint, the P8 seems a lot better (even admitted by Dahon on their website...go figure).

[lifereinspired]

We may just go crazy and go ride a 26" flat foot tomorrow. I don't know. But we'll figure it out and if today made me realize one thing, it's how much I really want to do this project and how much fun it's going to be to get to ride again...and get a little piece of myself back.

[deVries]

We may just go crazy and go ride a 26" flat foot tomorrow.

What do you think about this idea... ???


Might I suggest trying ONE eBike build at a time. That way if the Dahon has issues you could let Steven use it, and then you could pull the trailer-dog with this Bully 20" bike shown above instead???

[Equipper]

Hi, People. I'm Steven (Rachel's husband). Just got on to thank everyone for all the help you are giving us. There is no way to tell you how much this is meaning to her. Today I saw a light come back on her face that has not been there for a long time.

Ya know, Rachel was a world class ballerina - danced at the Royal Ballet in London and the Kirov in St. Petersburg, Russia (among others). The year she was chosen for her spot at the Royal, there were over 10.000 applicants for that one position - and she got it! I am just saying that to let you know that she was once the equivalent of an Olympic athlete, physically. To see her lose almost all of that ability has been heartbreaking. She needs to dream again - and this has helped do that for her far more than I would have ever imagined.

I am listed as her "essential person" as far as caregiver is concerned and I am the only one who knows what to do if she has an airway collapse other than her pulmonologist - which is why I have to be able to ride along if she tries this. The problem is I have had four stent placements in my heart since November of last year... So when she said she wished she could ride her bike again... the only thing I could come up with to help make that vision remotely possible was an electric bike for both of us. That way we can go at whatever pace both of us can handle and if it gets too much, the electric power can be a backup to assure I can get her home.

Well that's the plan, anyway. It may seem dumb to some. But when doctors have run out of answers... you make your own rules. Sometimes I think making a dream come true and defying the odds is worth more than a boatload of medications.

Anyway, thanks for all of your help and good wishes. Rachel is the type of person that if she sets her mind to something... it will happen... somehow. This genetic disorder has taken almost all of our time the past four years. She has had 13 operations so far and spent over 100 days in the hospital last year alone. But if she says she is going to ride a bike... Well like my uncle use to say... if she tells you a duck can pull a train... you better hitch it up!

Let me know what I can do to help.
Steven

[deVries]

We may just go crazy and go ride a 26" flat foot tomorrow. I don't know. But we'll figure it out and if today made me realize one thing, it's how much I really want to do this project and how much fun it's going to be to get to ride again...and get a little piece of myself back.

Wait a sec... I thought you wanted a 20" wheel. Flip flopping away...

Seriously, if you pick a bike with an aluminum frame, THEN YOU need to make certain the rear drop-out is heavy duty! From my previous post:

Also, it stands to reason that if the front fork *must* be steel or chromoly, then it is a good thing too to have the rear drop-outs be made of steel or chromoly. There have been many issues with weak aluminum drop-outs that allowed a motor to damage or destroy the drop-out, whereas steel or chromoly do a much better job at preventing that issue from damaging the rear drop-out. IMO. That's one reason torque arms are essential too!

[deVries]

I am listed as her "essential person" as far as caregiver is concerned and I am the only one who knows what to do if she has an airway collapse other than her pulmonologist - which is why I have to be able to ride along if she tries this.

Hi Steven,

If it is your intention & Rachel's that you ride with her every time together, then why can't *you* pull the trailer & dog?

You can get one bike with a front motor AND the 2nd bike with a rear motor for pulling the trailer. No one has suggested it is ideal to have a front motor for pulling the dog & trailer. I've given good reasons & so have others, so go with a front motor if you want to too. It's not a purely black & white decision.

My personal preference is to use a rear motor both for you & Rachel, but that is my opinion. You guys, the two of you, have to make the final decisions.

No matter which choice you make there are pros/cons for every choice you make. There is no perfect solution, since there are tradeoffs for every choice you make.

[lifereinspired]

We may just go crazy and go ride a 26" flat foot tomorrow. I don't know. But we'll figure it out and if today made me realize one thing, it's how much I really want to do this project and how much fun it's going to be to get to ride again...and get a little piece of myself back.

Wait a sec... I thought you wanted a 20" wheel. Flip flopping away...

Seriously, if you pick a bike with an aluminum frame, THEN YOU need to make certain the rear drop-out is heavy duty! From my previous post:

Also, it stands to reason that if the front fork *must* be steel or chromoly, then it is a good thing too to have the rear drop-outs be made of steel or chromoly. There have been many issues with weak aluminum drop-outs that allowed a motor to damage or destroy the drop-out, whereas steel or chromoly do a much better job at preventing that issue from damaging the rear drop-out. IMO. That's one reason torque arms are essential too!

We DO! But we're trying to listen to the advice given here on this awesome forum...and someone mentioned the Electra Townie again. So I was simply trying to not be stubborn or bullheaded...it's a rare moment

So...are we back to needing steel drop outs? But not necessarily a steel/chromo fork, right? I was getting confused by some of the other thoughts that basically any bike will work. I'm sorry...I was trying to get back on track rather than be confusing. If it's realistic that the Dahon's will be safe and capable, that would be amazing. What did you think of the rear drop outs on the D7 Photos I posted? I'm assuming workable or we wouldn't still be talking this direction...

Anyway, as much as one of us will hate having to wait if we do one at a time...I think we're pretty open to the idea. Your thought that we could move to the origin8 if the first Dahon proved to have difficulty with the trailer and Siena is a good one. Having said that, I don't want Steven to end up on an unsafe bike either. I can't lose him...he's my soulmate and best friend...so I want him safe too.

However, if we do this one at a time...one of us is going to be awful jealous of the other!!

Will the motor go on the actual bike wheel that comes with the bike (assuming it's purchased as a complete bike not frame only) or will the motor come with its own wheel like some kits?

The ONLY reason that we thought front motor was because we didn't think that we (personally) would be able to handle the time & complexity of installing a rear motor...it had nothing to do with actually wanting to have a front motor. Does that make sense?

[lifereinspired]

I am listed as her "essential person" as far as caregiver is concerned and I am the only one who knows what to do if she has an airway collapse other than her pulmonologist - which is why I have to be able to ride along if she tries this.

Hi Steven,

If it is your intention & Rachel's that you ride with her every time together, then why can't *you* pull the trailer & dog?

I think it probably comes from my wistful dreams of one day being able to make it the mile up the street (literally) with Siena on my ebike on my own to the hospital for medical appts. I know, seriously crazy... but dreaming about it makes me feel like one day, I might be able to regain just a tiny bit of my independence again.

[Equipper]

I am listed as her "essential person" as far as caregiver is concerned and I am the only one who knows what to do if she has an airway collapse other than her pulmonologist - which is why I have to be able to ride along if she tries this.

Hi Steven,

If it is your intention & Rachel's that you ride with her every time together, then why can't *you* pull the trailer & dog?

You can get one bike with a front motor AND the 2nd bike with a rear motor for pulling the trailer. No one has suggested it is ideal to have a front motor for pulling the dog & trailer. I've given good reasons & so have others, so go with a front motor if you want to too. It's not a purely black & white decision.

My personal preference is to use a rear motor both for you & Rachel, but that is my opinion. You guys, the two of you, have to make the final decisions.

No matter which choice you make there are pros/cons for every choice you make. There is no perfect solution, since there are tradeoffs for every choice you make.

deVries, That's cool. Rachel may want the freedom to be able to ride by herself if she improves after the next couple of operations. We will need to wait and see if that becomes possible. But we are open to whatever will work and we wouldn't be here if we weren't "out-of-the-box" thinkers. We just don't know much about this subject. Rachel tells me you are the guru of ebikes... so speak, oh wise one, we will listen.

[deVries]

So...are we back to needing steel drop outs? But not necessarily a steel/chromo fork, right?

Front Fork MUST be steel or chromoly *IF* putting a motor up front.

If putting the motor in the rear, then you need steel or chromoly drop-outs, OR a good strong aluminum drop-out that is much harder to come by. Look at the Surly Troll rear drop-out... 'that' is perfect! IMO.

If it's realistic that the Dahon's will be safe and capable, that would be amazing. What did you think of the rear drop outs on the D7 Photos I posted? I'm assuming workable or we wouldn't still be talking this direction...

You could use the Dahon D7/P8 *IF* you are willing to pull the trailer & dog slow -maybe 10-14mph. (I think Chalo may think that is fine at that slow speed. Chalo?) Have to decide about where the motor goes though. If it goes in the rear drop-out, then we need to know the width of the drop-out. Usually it is 135mm, but we need to know.

Your thought that we could move to the origin8 if the first Dahon proved to have difficulty with the trailer and Siena is a good one. Having said that, I don't want Steven to end up on an unsafe bike either. I can't lose him...he's my soulmate and best friend...so I want him safe too.

The Bully bike is for pulling the trailer & dog. That is far better than using the Dahon for that. The Bully orgin8 is the stronger bike, so Steven is very safe on that bike. Steven should pull the trailer & dog if both of you are always traveling together. Then you would be on your favorite bike: The Dahon!

[mark5]

OK, went to LBS(s) today and absolutely fell in love with the Dahon Speed series.
... please...help us figure out a way to make the motor work on one of those.

There was a Dahon D7 build posted here a few months ago
RVD 's Dahon Speed D7:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34958

[deVries]

Rachel may want the freedom to be able to ride by herself if she improves after the next couple of operations.

If the Dahon is deemed unsafe for pulling the trailer, then all Rachel has to do is use the Bully for that. You can catch-up on the Dahon later maybe.