Got pulled over today

[Chalo]

Yes you draw the line somewhere. But a fast ebike is really no different than a fast road cyclist.

No. Even an elite cyclist isn't carrying 30mph steady for a half hour, or through stop 'n go traffic. Or uphill. Or with a 300+ pound gross weight.

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened. No pedal cyclist is holding 30 on flat ground with his thoughts wandering and an iPod tweedling in his ears. He's totally focused. The 250 pound guy on a 100 pound bike who isn't even pedaling, just sitting there like a lump? Probably not so much. You see how oblivious car drivers are.

I would draw a line against anything that has an exhaust pipe. Motorcycles weigh 300+lbs usually, and are often loud. An ebike is neither.

What's the energy difference between a 150 pound rider on a 300 pound motorcycle at 40mph, and a 300 pound rider on a 150 pound e-bike at 40mph? Mr. Joule says they are the same.

Buzz a path walker at 30+ with a two-stage RC motor bike and then ask him/her whether you were quiet like a bicycle.

The very fact that we are having this discussion is evidence that people will push the limits of whatever they are allowed. Allowing motorcycles-- any kind of motorcycles-- to enjoy the same privileges and access as bicycles is just a plain bad idea. Only bicycles are bicycles-- designating motorcycles as bicycles is like designating them as peds. It's untrue and it just makes trouble.

Better than making an obvious falsehood into a legal truth for the sake of convenience, would be limiting all city street traffic to a default of 20mph, so that all road users can take the lane safely and relatively quietly.

Chalo

[John in CR]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened. No pedal cyclist is holding 30 on flat ground with his thoughts wandering and an iPod tweedling in his ears. He's totally focused. The 250 pound guy on a 100 pound bike who isn't even pedaling, just sitting there like a lump? Probably not so much. You see how oblivious car drivers are.

Again you demonstrate your elitist cluelessness. Other than that we agree on it being foolish to use IPods or other distractions while operating a vehicle of any type, your post is offensive and hilariously wrong. Come up with an appropriate test and I accept that challenge. Time to put your money where your mouth is. This "lump" was considering a trip to Austin next year anyway, so after you concede just how wrong you are you can show me the best places to go, your treat.

[Cresh]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened.

In my experience, it's the exact opposite. I'm way more alert when I don't have to struggle so hard to reach 30mph. I've had this discussion with local riders in my area and this is pretty much the consensus - that we feel safer on the ebike because being alert takes effort that is diminished when you push yourself to your physical limit.

2003 giant Yukon, Mac 7t, 52v

[Chalo]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened.

In my experience, it's the exact opposite. I'm way more alert when I don't have to struggle so hard to reach 30mph. I've had this discussion with local riders in my area and this is pretty much the consensus - that we feel safer on the ebike because being alert takes effort that is diminished when you push yourself to your physical limit.

Forgive me for saying so, but I'm guessing that your own physical limits and those of your buddies (like my own these days) don't involve you establishing 30mph on level ground unless a force 10 gale is chasing you down the road. Someone who can attain and hold 30mph for more than a few seconds is not distressed to the point of distraction by it. The brain is an organ, and moving the implied amount of oxygenated blood through it enhances awareness and slows the perceived passage of time.

Chalo

[John in CR]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened.

In my experience, it's the exact opposite. I'm way more alert when I don't have to struggle so hard to reach 30mph. I've had this discussion with local riders in my area and this is pretty much the consensus - that we feel safer on the ebike because being alert takes effort that is diminished when you push yourself to your physical limit.

2003 giant Yukon, Mac 7t, 52v

Thank you, of course the physical exertion is a distraction. Even the body position of hard riding works against them. This guy is simply anti-ebikes though he tolerates being pedelecs as long as they're ridden by someone who is a cyclist first. Anything else is a motorcycle with the rider being just a lump of a person. Not only is he is far superior to the lumps, but the world would be a better place if he made the rules and decisions for them.

John

[veloman]

Okay, I for one have spent years pedaling my road bike as fast as possible. That includes 35mph uphill sprints, and being at 30mph for miles, expeling every last drop of energy from my body.

All in all, I am more alert and watching the road on the ebike. but not by a lot.

I said it in another thread - issue is bikes with peds, not bikes with ebikes.

Chalo, lets go riding sometime, seriously. I always want to meet other ebikers anyway.


Bikers need to band together, ride safe, whether they have a small electric motor or just pedals only.

[Chalo]

More importantly, the physical effort that allows a very fit athletic cyclist to reach 30mph (briefly) keeps his brain on and his awareness heightened.

In my experience, it's the exact opposite. I'm way more alert when I don't have to struggle so hard to reach 30mph. I've had this discussion with local riders in my area and this is pretty much the consensus - that we feel safer on the ebike because being alert takes effort that is diminished when you push yourself to your physical limit.

2003 giant Yukon, Mac 7t, 52v

Thank you, of course the physical exertion is a distraction. Even the body position of hard riding works against them. This guy is simply anti-ebikes though he tolerates being pedelecs as long as they're ridden by someone who is a cyclist first. Anything else is a motorcycle with the rider being just a lump of a person. Not only is he is far superior to the lumps, but the world would be a better place if he made the rules and decisions for them.

You don't know me. I've built two e-bikes for myself and one for my wife, along with others beginning in 2000. I rode a motorcycle as my primary transportation for over ten years. I've worked as a bicycle mechanic starting in 1992, and a CNC machinist starting in 1995. I have designed and machined all kinds of components for both bicycles and motorcycles. When I observe that a 40mph e-bike is not equal to a bicycle, I know both sides of that equation intimately-- from making them, servicing them, riding them, and living with them.

You want the privileges of a bicycle without the limitations, and the power of a motor vehicle without the responsibilities. Which is fine to want, but unfair to motorcyclists who meet their responsibilities, and unethical to bicyclists who abide by their limitations. The civilized world has stipulated conditions under which an electric vehicle can be considered a bicycle, and that's already an unearned privilege, a bonus. But it's not enough for y'all.

The conditions for operating a motorcycle have been set forth for generations. I didn't make the rules up. They exist already. Y'all just don't want to follow them.

Chalo

[liveforphysics]

You actually have a right to travel as a citizen of the US, and more logically as a human right.
You are permitted to travel anywhere you like that isn't marked as private property at your leisure with your method of transportation choice, provided that transportation choice is privately owned and not causing damage or harms, and you're traveling for a non-commercial purpose.

The only reason cars have licence plates and titles is because it transfers the vehicle to being owned by the state, which removes your freedom to travel because its no longer a private vehicle at that point. It's a dirty trick to infringe on rights, but it's generally easier to simply play along with them than support your right to travel, which requires an un-registered privately owned vehicle to do legally.

If you are not using your vehicle for commercial purposes, and you own your vehicle (meaning you didn't give it to the state in exchange for a certificate of "legal" title (which means the state owns the physical vehicle, you're just responsible for it), then you have a right to travel, and need no registration or insurance or drivers licence etc. You don't have the right to harm anyone or anything with your vehicle, but you do have the right to travel. Over the years there have been a number of folks who actually took the effort to enforce it. Charlie Sprinkle was one of the later ones, and he did it for 35 years, and got a number of state laws repealed in CA and other states that were clear violations of your right to travel.

Some info on Charlie:

http://ticketslayer.com/ts/rt2travel/ts ... page_1.htm


Info on registering your vehicle etc:

" no state can require a driver's license to travel in a private vehicle. As we shall see, driver licenses are only for commercial purposes. Everyone has a right to travel on public roads, yet no one has a right to use public roads to make a profit.

A license plate is proof that the government owns the car. A "Certificate of Title" is not a title. A Certificate of Title is a statement by the owner stating that title exists. Those who have overthrown your government now own "your" car. Unfortunately, you exchanged ownership of the vehicle for the plates that they force you to put on their car. "



Travel within the United States

Constitutional freedom
As early as the Articles of Confederation the Congress recognized freedom of movement (Article 4), though the right was thought to be so fundamental during the drafting of the Constitution as not needing explicit enumeration.[4].
In United States v. Wheeler, 254 U.S. 281 (1920), the Supreme Court reiterated its position that the Constitution did not grant the federal government the power to protect freedom of movement. However, Wheeler had a significant impact in other ways. For many years, the roots of the Constitution's "privileges and immunities" clause had only vaguely been determined.[5] In 1823, the circuit court in Corfield had provided a list of the rights (some fundamental, some not) which the clause could cover.[6][7] The Wheeler court dramatically changed this. It was the first to locate the right to travel in the privileges and immunities clause, providing the right with a specific guarantee of constitutional protection.[8] By reasoning that the clause derived from Article IV of the Articles of Confederation, the decision suggested a narrower set of rights than those enumerated in Corfield, but also more clearly defined those rights as absolutely fundamental.[9]
But the Supreme Court began rejecting Wheeler's reasoning within a few years. Finally, in United States v. Guest, 383 U.S. 745 (1966), the Supreme Court overruled Chief Justice White's conclusion that the federal government could protect the right to travel only against state infringement.[2][3][10]

[liveforphysics]

Also, I bought a nice light road bike, and I've been riding it for exercise and to commute.

For the first time since I was a kid on a bicycle, I'm now blowing stop-signs and stop-lights like crazy, not slowing for much of anything, because it takes so much damn effort to get back up to speed. lol I also don't run off in the grass beside the bike paths or sidewalks when there is pedestrian traffic either, because my damn razer thin tires sink into the wet grass like a plow, or quite prone to sliding out. So I tend to pass folks closer and without slowing now, unlike my ebike where I slow and pass off-path (our paths are narrow). I also tend to look down while pumping the pedals super hard in a tucked position, which has caused me a number of close calls. lol

The braking distance on this bike is total crap too! Even if you could hold the front wheel right on the verge of skidding and verge of stoppie (which I can basically do), the wheel base is so much shorter and front-weight-forward, deathbike can still stop in half the distance or less than this machine.

But I love how easy it is to pedal and I love blazing down steep hills in an aero-tuck on it, and everything just feels like it's going to come apart at once as tiny bumps cause it to struggle to stay in control (at least with my road-bike newb skills on it).

Deathbike stops for stop-signs and intersections (because starting from a stop is so damn fun you're just looking for more reasons to do it) and passes off path (mostly just riding in traffic with cars) and can brake insanely well when needed. It's a pretty nice way to travel. Quieter than my road bikes damn loud clicking freewheel hub too! lol

[Cresh]

Forgive me for saying so, but I'm guessing that your own physical limits and those of your buddies (like my own these days) don't involve you establishing 30mph on level ground unless a force 10 gale is chasing you down the road.

Your guess would be wrong.

I'm not trying to argue with you, because I do agree with a lot of what you are saying. I have been a pedal biker up until about a year ago when I discovered ebikes and this great forum. I have enjoyed reading your posts and have learned a lot from you. However, I do feel safer on my ebike for the reasons liveforphysics mentions above (not wanting to slow down for stop signs etc...). 30mph is really not that hard on a light road bike, but to maintain it is...

2003 giant Yukon, Mac 7t, 52v

[John in CR]

Also, I bought a nice light road bike, and I've been riding it for exercise and to commute.

You have to post a picture decked out in your lycra, because I gotta see it to believe it.

Now, regarding blowing through stoplights and stop signs, sorry It's not a timed competition, so there is no excuse. It's a huge part of what gives motorists their bad attitude toward cyclists, because the appearance is that cyclists believe themselves to be above the law. Stopping and starting is better exercise, so the reason is laziness and nothing else. If pedalists want to enjoy the use of the road effortlessly and cleanly on 2 wheels, then get an ebike.

The exception is when cyclists leave a red light early with traffic clear to get through the intersection and to their bike space ahead of the cars to avoid impeding the progress of cars, so the drivers benefit too, along with increased safety for all. It's unlikely we could communicate this intent to drivers, so there's increased animosity as a consequence which has a negative impact on safety.

John
aka the lump living in an uncivilized part of the world.

[Lessss]

what is this 30mph crap ebikes are limited to 32kph (20 mph)

[veloman]

Cyclists not stopping for stop signs - here is why:

Spandex roadies: the sport is all about maintaining and going as fast as possible. For *some* it is about exercise, but that is not the main reason, at least for me. The essence of road cycling is traveling places quickly, EFFICIENTLY, under your own power. Stopping sucks, a lot. It's not laziness, it's just a matter of wanting the utmost efficiency.

Transportation cyclists: we simply want to get from point A to point B with as little energy expenditure as possible, but also in doing so quickly. The goal is to spend as little effort, but also keep a good speed. Stopping destroys this. We run most stop signs safely, but some riders run all stops and give us a bad rap and are dangerous. (same for above roadies).

Ebiker: the motor takes away most of the reason why I don't want to stop, but I am first a roadie, who LOVES efficiency, so I still do not like stopping. I do complete stops when anyone else is present, but will roll a stop at 5-8mph if no one is around.

[Punx0r]

I have to say, Chalo has a point. It's wishful thinking to believe ebikes are somehow morally exempt from regulation.

I believe most jurisdictions have a similar attitude to mopeds: <50cc, <30mph and circa 2-3HP. They're registered, licenced, insured, safety tested, riders need safety gear etc, but to a lesser extent than cars or larger motorcycles, which reflects their limited performance. If you replace that 49cc engine with an electric motor of equivalent performance then I can't see how you can argue the vehicle isn't more-or-less the same thing.

Regarding freedom of movement/travel - this is also enshrined in the UN basic human rights. As far as I see, that entitles you to walk, bicycle or take public transport wherever you want, subject to local restrictions. I can't see how it entitles anyone to drive a car or fly a jetliner with complete disregard for local laws.

Freedom of speech is awesome, but has obvious (and necessary) limitations. You can't falsely accuse someone of being a rapist, or yell "fire!" in a crowded theatre, no matter how much you want to.

[liveforphysics]

It's wishful thinking to believe ebikes are somehow morally exempt from regulation.

The cleanest most efficient form of human earthly transportation (lower impact than a pedal bicycle, and drastically more utilitarian) is somehow immoral and should be punished? (given to the state, aka titled and registered, and then penalized financially and made to wear a number plate like a prisoner)

Seriously. This thinking just blows me away. Like it's immoral to ride an ebike. Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).

[ddk]

in most the usa it's not being punished imo
it's the state recognizing the limitations of an average bicycle and all its' crap parts. (although the crap parts can sometimes be very expensive... they're still crap parts) and providing a means to get as many ebikes on the road as possible... by not being overly restrictive (unlike ur-rup and AS)(and NY NY NY)

if you're building motorcycles build them on a motorcycle frame with motorcycle parts and quit flaunting reality.
...including flaunting laws and regulations that only leads to stiffer laws and regulations.
-oh, and thanks for making my unregulated e-bike into something else that will require a license, registration and insurance.

It's wishful thinking to believe ebikes are somehow morally exempt from regulation.

The cleanest most efficient form of human earthly transportation (lower impact than a pedal bicycle, and drastically more utilitarian) is somehow immoral and should be punished? (given to the state, aka titled and registered, and then penalized financially and made to wear a number plate like a prisoner)

Seriously. This thinking just blows me away. Like it's immoral to ride an ebike. Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).

[John in CR]

A motor is a motor. If they've got essentially the same performance limitations, then it should be treated the same regardless of whether that motor is electric or biologic.

Veloman,
Efficiency??? Call it whatever you want, but It boils down to being too lazy to stop because it takes too much energy to get going again. If it's okay for bikes, then it's okay for everyone else to save gas and time, etc. It's a major point of animosity for drivers making everyone a little less safe, not to mention that it's just as illegal as riding a high powered ebike which Chalo is so adamantly against being unplated. At least I obey the rules of the road. If I stretch the speed limit a bit, it's by no more than is typical. The specific occasion in my OP was a rarity that arose from the traffic situation of the timing required passing 2 cars and a bus. I was already off the throttle and coasting for my turn ahead before getting around the last of them.

John

[Punx0r]

The cleanest most efficient form of human earthly transportation (lower impact than a pedal bicycle, and drastically more utilitarian) is somehow immoral and should be punished? (given to the state, aka titled and registered, and then penalized financially and made to wear a number plate like a prisoner)

Seriously. This thinking just blows me away. Like it's immoral to ride an ebike. Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).

(Legal) Ebikes are not punished at all. They are one of the few forms of motorised transport that are not regulated. Apart from mobility scooters and power wheelchairs, I can think of no other example.

The necessity of regulation becomes obvious if you extrapolate a problem to the masses. You've got hundreds of 10-year old kids in every town riding 50mph electric motorbikes on the pavement and mowing down old ladies. It's ok though, because they're saving the planet.

Or, some spoilt rich-kid gets given a Tesla roadster, he's got no licence or insurance and wipes out a bus stop full of nuns.

If cars didn't need to wear plates, a lot of people would drive like complete cocks, considering themselves unaccountable. If some drunk clown killed your kid outside the school doing 80mph I doubt you'd be concerned about his "right" not to register his car?

I am a strong advocate of individual freedom and responsibility, but there must be limits. I love guns, but I wouldn't like to see them on open, unrestricted sale to any idiot.

It's a little OT, but how is an ebike more eco-friendly than walking or using a pedal cycle? Leaving aside the manufacturing energy and emissions, one runs from a coal-fired power plant, the others are powered by food I can forage in the wild.

[fizzit]

(Legal) Ebikes are not punished at all. They are one of the few forms of motorised transport that are not regulated. Apart from mobility scooters and power wheelchairs, I can think of no other example.

Electric bicycles are regulated. You are not correct. In my state you are not allowed to ride an electric bicycle faster than 20mph or with a motor power of over 1000W. You also must be at least 16 years old. Just because a vehicle does not have a license does not mean that you aren't morally or legally accountable.

[Punx0r]

Fair enough - if there's an age restriction then it's regulated.

I specifically said legal ebikes to because anything over the speed/power restrictions is not legally an ebike (an assisted bicycle).

[veloman]

Veloman,
Efficiency??? Call it whatever you want, but It boils down to being too lazy to stop because it takes too much energy to get going again. If it's okay for bikes, then it's okay for everyone else to save gas and time, etc. It's a major point of animosity for drivers making everyone a little less safe, not to mention that it's just as illegal as riding a high powered ebike which Chalo is so adamantly against being unplated. At least I obey the rules of the road. If I stretch the speed limit a bit, it's by no more than is typical. The specific occasion in my OP was a rarity that arose from the traffic situation of the timing required passing 2 cars and a bus. I was already off the throttle and coasting for my turn ahead before getting around the last of them.

John

No argument there, I agree with you. I didn't mean to say it's okay for road bikes to run stop signs, just explaining why. I know I'm more likely to hit a biker near campus here than a car since most of them don't stop for stop signs or have lights.

[ZOMGVTEK]

I just passed a 'bicycle cop' on my bike, in a park, without a helmet, at over 40. Whoops.

It's probably OK, since i fake pedaled and was off the throttle. It's just a really odd looking bike, that looks really heavy, and I'm one hell of a cyclist.

[liveforphysics]

If some drunk clown killed your kid outside the school doing 80mph I doubt you'd be concerned about his "right" not to register his car?

Help me understand how a slip of paper in his glove box or some stamped sheet metal on the back of the car being present or not has any effect on someone hitting my kid with his car?

What you need to realize, is drops of ink arranged on paper in configurations pleasing to the fear-based folks has no effect on human actions. Every human action is the choice of the human performing the action, and nothing more or less.

Likewise, if someone is choosing to perform behavior that hurts other folks, no amount of permits and tags and bits of stamped sheet metal has any effect on the harms done.

I am a strong advocate of individual freedom and responsibility, but there must be limits. I love guns, but I wouldn't like to see them on open, unrestricted sale to any idiot.

The way it is now, any idiot can buy any gun they like, even full auto stuff, and its sold with no waiting period or registration etc. You can be deranged on PCP and buy full auto weapons with the current system. This is because once again, no configuration of dots of ink on paper in a law book has any effect on the actions of humans, which are always determined by the choices that human makes.

What do those droplets of ink arranged cause? They cause folks who agree to try to live by those guidelines (NOBODY lives without breaking "laws" and hundreds to thousands a year, the average American commits enough crimes to be imprisoned for life every year, but of course it doesn't matter because laws obviously aren't real things, they are just imaginary human constructs that sometimes people try to enforce if they happen to be in the right place at the right time with the proper means) to not be able to purchase various types of weapons, and to be required to wait 2 weeks or whatever before buying, and have to register them etc etc. The folks who aren't the problem in the first place get restricted options and need to register etc, yet the folks who are willing to buy on the expansive black market will of course always be unrestricted.

It's kinda like drug laws. Boy that works! Arrange some dots of ink in a book, and poof! Drugs vanished from existence. Or... maybe they just get to be of more sketchy quality and more hazard causing, and available to anyone at any age with cash... Also creates and support a massive organized crime blackmarket... You don't see a carrot and potato black market, you wouldn't see a drug black market either if the harm causing law vanished. (what happened to the alcohol black market when they made it legal?)

It's a little OT, but how is an ebike more eco-friendly than walking or using a pedal cycle? Leaving aside the manufacturing energy and emissions, one runs from a coal-fired power plant, the others are powered by food I can forage in the wild.

Justin of ebikes.ca did an awesome research paper on this very topic. Walking consumes drastically more energy per mile than riding a pedal bike, and a human body pumping pedals consumes radically more energy in sourcing that energy from food than an electric bike recharging from an outlet. Depending on diet and types of food etc, well over an order of magnitude. Obviously there are exceptions, if you only ate foods you foraged for in the wild for your energy, and the electricity came from a dirty source, you could have lower impact as a human pedaling than an ebike, but average to average (what his paper covers), the human pedaling was a drastically greater polluter than the human plugging in an ebike and riding. Either way, the energy used is so low, and environmental impact vs other transportation options is so low with either choice, pedal or ebike, the difference is like an error bar margin difference compared to anytime you get someone out of a car/truck/suv and onto a bicycle. (you could say on foot as well, but it's just more wasted energy and drastically less utilarian function, as most folks aren't going to walk 15miles to work and back daily etc).







Bottom line, do the right thing. (very seldom does this involve following many of the laws man creates)

[Chalo]

Name a single more moral form of transportation that you propose (walking and pedal bikes are NOT better environmentally, or in utilitarian function).

It's a little OT, but how is an ebike more eco-friendly than walking or using a pedal cycle? Leaving aside the manufacturing energy and emissions, one runs from a coal-fired power plant, the others are powered by food I can forage in the wild.

I expect his thinking is that the food you have to eat has a bigger environmental footprint than the coal for the power plant. But that presumes that the motorist isn't eating just about as much (which he likely is). And it's not focusing broadly enough, if you want to get as obtuse as that in pursuit of externalities.

How about the environmental footprint of all the medical intervention you'll need because you ruined your health motoring, when you could have been walking or pedaling? The carbon emissions of the extra air conditioning you use because you don't exercise outdoors and get acclimated? And of course there is the horrifying nightmare of battery materials, manufacturing, and disposal, which are so much nastier than just putting juice in the batteries that it's disingenuous not to include them.

E-bikes and other light EVs are relatively green and low-impact, but they are still motor vehicles. Trying to make them somehow "more specialer" than other motor vehicles of similar size, speed, and payload is grasping at straws.

Chalo

[Arlo1]

The problem there is once again a cop thinking that because it's styled like a scooter that it's not a bicycle. Nothing wrong with scooter styled ebikes themselves, they work great to suit folks transportation needs.

Cop business notwithstanding, and irrespective of how right or wrong they are, those scooters are not bicycles. Not any more than a washing machine with pedals sticking out the sides is a bicycle.

Chalo

There is MANY MANY different shapes and sizes dude. Most of them are to small/cheep to waste time with Licenceing. Some times you need to take a step back and think maybe a free form of travel is not so bad.