Hydrogen fuel cell range extender EBIKE

Fuel cells work. Bunch of portable ones are for sale now.

efoy2200.jpg


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=995173&Q=&is=REG&A=details

At least 4 new all electric cars next year all running hydrogen pem fuel cells . Only a matter of time.
 
The partners revealed the Alter Bike in France earlier this year but don't seem to have detailed specifics such as battery size, weight or range on a single cartridge
... or performance data.....
..or price,..
..or running/recharge costs..

If that Brunton 5v, 2A cell costs $150, how much would a 36v, 15A unit cost ?
and the 90 Watt "Efoy" cell costs <$5k :shock:

EDIT
Here is another HFC bike / kit that is already on the market...@ $3k ???
http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/#!copy-of-transport-solutions/c19ec
HMX-CES01.jpg
 
Thing is though, fuel cells,wear,out just like batteries.

Hydrogen is horribly inefficient to produce and that energy is much better put into batteries.m
 
All these transport systems will use, at least for now, on board batteries as the main power supplies, with the feul cell used as a onboard generator to recharge as and if needed. Plus, Good PEM cells are running 60% efficiency and running thousands of hours reliably now. Better to split water than to pump extra solar / wind energy into the grid at a hugh discount and with all its losses that no one wants to talk about. What is the battery only systems overall effeciency including making the power used to run chargers and all the associated losses on the charger systems. At some point the energy densities of the various storage forms cross. Interesting times.

cheers
 
It would have been extra nice to lay insulated heat-pipes from the cell to the bars or seat or something that can be disconnected for summer riding.

If an ebike had some big and inherent efficiency hit associated with it, I could understand people traveling down non-electric drive paths. However, with current existing tech an ebike can be about 85, maybe even >90% efficient (obviously would need to be a very well engineered system) from the wall outlet all the way to pushing a deforming tire against asphalt to get you home.

It seems like fuel cells are about taking an ultra high-efficiency system and turning it into a very low efficiency system, while gaining new failure modes, but keeping all the previous ones a battery electric bike already has.
 
It's only 100 watts though. Not really practical for high power use.

My Bosch 400 wh can take me 70 miles even with pretty good climbs, sure enough it provides full power until 15.5 mph then starts ramping down until it reaches 17 mph where there is no assistance, and I like to pedal a lot too. Granted if I was to take it on a mountain climb that could be as low as 30 miles, but it's still a pretty efficient system, especially for hills with just 400 wh of energy.

Maybe the fuel cell would carry me an extra 20 miles or so but the bike would be too heavy.

I hate to think of the cost of hydrogen, I have the option of installing solar panels to offset the cost of electricity, I couldn't do that with hydrogen.

Hydrogen would be just as expensive as normal road fuel here because the Government will tax the balls out of it, they can't do that to electricity.

If they could make a fuel cell car where you can plug in and run on the battery for about 80-100 miles and then run on hydrogen for another 100-200 miles that would be cool, then you have the option to use hydrogen and not be forced to. Electric cars can provide a lot of freedom from greedy energy companies and Governments.
 
The best electrical generation systems are running around 50-60% efficiency, solar, hydro and wind aside. Couple that with transmission/grid losses and you have some fair comparisons. This is all before you plug in. Like the idea of using the waste heat. Lots of work also developing on waste heat recovery generation also. Still some years to go there. Not sure why any government would tax the hell out of it, and if they even knew it was happening in your work shop. Anyone can make it with excess solar or wind. Store it in LP style bottles for a rainy day or your trip to grandmas.

Agree, at this point the Li batteries are light and energy dense, and the PEM fuel cells are still infants, but it is here with a bang this year. All systems I have seen are plug in for a majority of the local use needs and cells for range extension. Prius all electric style with a fuel cell stack instead of a piston engine for further distance needs.

We are seeing this way ahead of what I expected some years back, and I could say with some confidence now, that we are firmly at the beginning of the end for the piston engine. RIP!

toyota's new entry
toyota-fcvr-650x0.jpg

The hyundai "little rolling brick"
ix35_hyundai_489x280.jpg

Honda
1374777541010-01-FCX-Clarity-120-1307251515_4_3.jpg

Audi starting to take it seriously also.
audi_a7_autocar_489x324.jpg
 
I think LFP said it well. Cool, fun, etc. But not cheaper or better than other ways to extend range yet. At least for bikes anyway.

It's much like the argument I keep giving about carrying a 25 pound generator. Hell, 25 pounds more battery takes you farther than your ass can handle. I'm not sure what the fuel cells weigh, but if they are 5 pounds then it gets interesting. The one linked to above is that light, but it puts out a whopping 10 watts. 2 amps of usb voltage. Not enough to run a charger.

But, if you have no plug were you are going, it starts to make more sense.

But right now a 5 amps charge takes very little time to fill most ebikes. All you really need is a charger that doesn't conk out for carrying it on the bike. Somehow, we still can't get that easy. 8) All we need for range anxiety on ebikes is some plugs we can use for free, or a small fee if a person is already there for other reasons who can collect it.
 
Agree. Better for high power consumption items at this point but also shows some serious advantages in long range flight and back pack type supplies for remote com. applications in the willies. Would like to see some semi's and locomotives adapt the technology. The Locomotive is already electric and would kill the argument that it is a week power supply method.
 
I feel hydrogen might find more use in commercial vehicles, If lithium air batteries come on line in the next 5-10 years then I'd see no advantage for hydrogen. I'm assuming the recharge time would be much less.
 
http://www.automotivelogisticsmagazine.com/news/​mercedes-boosts-fuel-cell-forklift-fleet
http://www.ballard.com/files/PDF/Material_Handling/MH_EconBenefits_FCvelocity_041411.pdf

Refueling is a big plus for H2 economics.

Batteries are much much too fragile as they are now IMO. I am reasonably certain they (battery storage technology) will change greatly in the near future. Hydrogen is here to stay and need to get our full research attention. The sooner we adapt to the idea and build the needed infrastructure the better off we all will be.
 
speedmd said:
http://www.automotivelogisticsmagazine.com/news/​mercedes-boosts-fuel-cell-forklift-fleet
http://www.ballard.com/files/PDF/Material_Handling/MH_EconBenefits_FCvelocity_041411.pdf

Refueling is a big plus for H2 economics.

Batteries are much much too fragile as they are now IMO. I am reasonably certain they (battery storage technology) will change greatly in the near future. Hydrogen is here to stay and need to get our full research attention. The sooner we adapt to the idea and build the needed infrastructure the better off we all will be.

As I said, maybe hydrogen will find use for commercial use but for the average car/van driver if Lithium air batteries are successful then they could offer greater ranges than hydrogen and I'm sure the recharge time will be much reduced. Who needs to drive more than 200 miles in a day ? if you can recharge to 80% in 5-10 ins what more do we really need ?

The greedy energy companies are hell bent on getting us on hydrogen because they feel threatened by battery cars, and they will bribe politicians as they always do to get what they want, so maybe in that sense we will be forced to use hydrogen but at the very least hydrogen cars should be plug in capable so we have the choice to charge the battery with cheap electricity.

They energy required to make hydrogen is much more then needed to charge a battery and so it's a hugely wasteful process. Unless it can be made with 100% renewable or Nuclear.
 
I've no doubt that hydrogen fuel cells can be very useful in many situations. I'm just not convinced that the bicycle is going to be the best use for fuel cells.

Right now few people buy bike batteries bigger than 7-800wh. It's carryable, and will take you up to 40 miles. Carrying 1500wh is not hard, if the bike is set up for cargo. That gets you well into the I want off long before I run out range.

Where is the need for more? For bikes.

On the other hand, if you have a rolex on your arm, you NEED the stupidest most expensive ebike on the market.
 
Sounds like a poor, expensive, inefficient way to burn natural gas.

I know damn well that the hydrogen that you are going to buy will come from converted natural gas, because producing hydrogen without fossil fuel inputs is so cost-ineffective that it makes no sense to do.

Nobody is going to pay 2-3 times the price of natural-gas derived hydrogen for renewably produced stuff, when renewables to electricity ultimately costs less than half of what a gallon of gas costs per unit of energy.

Even natural gas-derived hydrogen is very close in price to what a gallon of gasoline costs, in terms of energy you get out of the power source. Why bother, when the fuel cell + electric hybrid drivetrain car is going to cost 2-3 times more? If people really cared about lowering their emissions, they'd throw down the extra $7k for a CNG car, but they won't even do that. I wonder who exactly thinks that people are going to pay a $30-$60k premium for a hydrogen car that has the same pitfalls.

Go and do the math and you will see why hydrogen production and usage for power is a complete pipe dream right now. Barring some awesome quantum leap in development, it's still going to be in the baby phase of a technology, where EV is already past the awkward teenage phase :)

By the way, that fuel cell in the link only produces 10 watts for $150..
 
here in Germany we have so much wind power that the net gets out of balance if too much wind is blowing. Obviously this leads to actual negative electricity prices (short term). That's why some industry companies produce heat with excess electricity. Or even produce hydrogen that is then turned (carbonized) to methane which gets pushed and stored in the local natural gas lines.

What i wanna say is that is always a question of price what makes sense to do with electricity.
 
Definitely could be good, as a way to store excess wind or solar energy as hydrogen. Costly, but less costly than wasting excess grid energy. I would think you could fire up an electrolysis plant real fast to apply load, and keep a grid happy.

Way to go, shows what you can do with govt money when you don't squander it all in Iraq for a decade.

The big fat exception to the rule of it's just too expensive would be Iceland. There they have lots of hydrogen. They have so much geothermal power available there, that they can afford to crack water to make H. But I think they just burn hydrogen in cars, not do fuel cells. Once you have hydrogen, just burning it works good unless in space where oxygen is dear.

That turning it into natural gas is a new one for me. Where do they get the carbon? Is it just adding H to the gas molecules carbon for a different gas? That sounds real practical for use in stuff that exists. Be cool to re use carbon, if practical. Catch it on the way out of an electric plant, then run it right back through again.
 
I'm waiting for these:

go::batt 375

With the help of the gas battery go::batt 375 you will obtain electrical independence, allowing extraordinary mobility for your recreational vehicle, power tools and many other devices.

Product specifications:

Power output: 75 W of continuous output

Peak power output: 375 W peak power for 20 minutes

Weight: < 1 kg

Volume: < 4,5 l

Output voltage: 110/220 V (AC), 12-24 V (self-controlled), 5 V

Connector: Euro-outlet, lighter-socket, USB (4x Power-USB)

Charge: cartridge or camping gas bottle

Workingtime when using continuous power: up to 12 days with gas bottle (5.6 kg) or 23 hours per cartridge 500 (445 g)

Example of use: 6 charges of your e-bike batteries or up to 600 km range

Working temperature: -15 °C – 55 °C

http://www.ezelleron.eu/en/eZell3.html

75W for 23hours = 1725Wh from a 450g (=650g) standard propane/butane-gas cartridge. That's interesting for multi day travelling without access to an charging outlet, for excample when bikepacking.

5Wh/km works well for me, 10Wh/km is plenty, this would give a daily range of 180-360km/day, when contiously recharging your battery. You need only one gas cartridge per day.
 
Here is an e-gas project example from AUDI:

https://www.audi-mediaservices.com/publish/ms/content/en/public/pressemitteilungen/2013/06/25/world_premiere__audi.html


well to wheel analysis: (in German, incl. pictures) : http://www.audi.de/content/dam/ngw/company/Corporate_Responsibility/PDF/Audi%20e_gas_project%20_%20Die%20Umweltbilanz.pdf

dogman said:
That turning it into natural gas is a new one for me. Where do they get the carbon?...

Today the most elegant way in Germany is to use biogas from biogas plants. This biogas is around 60% methane and around 40% CO2 (and some other stuff). Add Hydrogen and remove water you get 100% methane. A bit simplfied, of course...

I t would be possible to use CO2 from the air, but the efficiency is significantly lower, so als long as there ar power plants running on coal, etc... I assume that they plan to "reuse" this CO2. It's only halfway, but you have to start somewhere.

In the next 20-30 years we will face the "problem" that we will use methane to make electricity and electricity to make methane at the same time in the same grid. This is unavoidable.

For bicycles / e-bikes neither hydrogen nor methane are the way to go, because the storage tanks are way to heavy. You need gas that is easily liquified like butane or propane.
 
Bottles can be made light. I see some quote storing/running 700 -1500 or more psi of light gas in them. Much different than bike tires. Leakages will be critical IMO. LP is also a good interim fuel. Widely used already but will need a reformer to separate the H2.

Some more interesting options developing. Solid magnesium/ water / air.
http://fuelcellsworks.com/news/2012/06/05/japanese-research-team-to-commercialize-magnesium-fuel-cell-in-one-year/
http://fuelcellsworks.com/news/2013/11/27/aqua-power-launches-indiegogo-campaign-for-worlds-first-h2o-powered-fuel-cell/
 
some at the pedelec forum doubt that the

go::batt 375

will really have an efficiency of >25% a weight of only 1kg and can really output 75W as claimed. For example the claimed 375W come from a built in buffer battery. This technology isn't yet developed far enough for everyday use.
 
Cephalotus said:
http://www.ezelleron.eu/en/eZell3.html

Yes, what's the price though?

I was hunting around for an ebike-grade ( 250-500W ) fuel cell last year and saw prices in the multiple $1000 USD range.
 
crossbreak said:
some at the pedelec forum doubt that the

go::batt 375

will really have an efficiency of >25% a weight of only 1kg and can really output 75W as claimed. For example the claimed 375W come from a built in buffer battery. This technology isn't yet developed far enough for everyday use.

75W continuous and 375W peak power (from battery, I assume that you will be able use your own DC-DC-converter) is what they clearly say in their spec sheet...

25% is possible with SOFC cells. Typical small SOFC Fuel cells that can now be bought for houshold application from Hexis or Vaillant/Staxera reach 30-35% efficiency with SOFC and methane as a fuel. CFCL even claims 60% el. efficiency, but they also need water and take 25h to start, so their main purpose is to run continuously:
http://www.ceramicfuelcells.de/de/technologie/gennex-modul/

Degradition of current SOFC designs is around -1%/1000 running hours. Those are in the 1000W electrical power range, so 25% efficiency for a 75W SOFC stack seems very plausible to me.

At the end we will have to wait for the final product and I do not know if it will ever reach the market. I was able to hold a prototype (dummy?) some years ago so I still hope for the final product and would be willing to spend some (stupid) money on it, just for fun.
 
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