DiamondBack, Cyclone 650watts and Dewalt A123 packs

[kfong]

Yeah, that's why I posted the photo. You never see it from above. The only pictures are usually from the sprocket view and that side needs to be more inline with the derailers. I didn't realize how much the motor sticks out till I put one together. You really want the motor in the back to do it correctly, so it's out of the way of the pedals. If I could weld a bike frame together, it would be the approach I would go. Hub motors are cleaner installs. I'm waiting for the new BMC motors to come out. They are geared, and the new ones have stronger composite gears. This will go into the Fantom since I could not see myself installing a cyclone setup on such a nice bike without being disappointed at the outcome.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com

[GGoodrum]

Your picture just confirms what ypedal and I have discerned, which is with the 1000W-1500W model, all they do is hack up the mounting plate for the 500W/650W kit, and include the same bag of installation bits. With the !000W setup, the motor isn't inline with the existing crankset. There is a second chainring sprocket that the motor drives with a second chain. The motor does not have an internal gearbox like the one used in the 500W/650W version. In any case, the motor is not as wide either, so you don't need the long axle. All I did was pull off the old crank, and put on the one provided.

My only complaint is that the system is quite noisy. I'm going to look into using a smaller pitch motor and chainring sprocket, or maybe a belt drive, in order to get some of the "stealthiness" back.

On my other 20" folding bike (the one in my current avatar...), I'm going to replace the front-mounted 5303, with one of the new composite-geared BMC 1000W motors as well. Hopefully, these won't be vaporware for too much longer.

-- Gary

[kfong]

Gary, I just went back on the site to see the 1000W setup. From what I gather, since the 1000w system is direct drive. They use 2 sprockets to reduce the RPM's to a more manageable level. Correct me if I’m wrong on this. Also since the motor is shorter it still sticks out far enough that you have to use their crank arms to provide the extra space needed. I went with the 650watt version to keep my running watts low, but perhaps I would have been better off with the 1000W to begin with. At least the pedals would have been equal on both sides.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com

[GGoodrum]

Gary, I just went back on the site to see the 1000W setup. From what I gather, since the 1000w system is direct drive. They use 2 sprockets to reduce the RPM's to a more manageable level. Correct me if I’m wrong on this. Also since the motor is shorter it still sticks out far enough that you have to use their crank arms to provide the extra space needed. I went with the 650watt version to keep my running watts low, but perhaps I would have been better off with the 1000W to begin with. At least the pedals would have been equal on both sides.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com

You are right on both counts. The crankset provided has two sprockets, a 44T for the motor drive,with a 6T on the motor, and a 36T for the pedal drive. The motor is only about 4" long, but more like 5", or so, in diameter. It looks like a baby Etek.

The watts used is a function of the load you put through it, which you could always limit via the throtle, or a CA, if one is used. Given the same load, the larger motor should run with less heat, so it could be more eficient that the smaller one. In my case, I wanted the best upper-end performance I could get, and I was not disappointed. I replaced a 72V/70A+ 5303 setup on this bike with a stock Cyclone 1000W system that runs maxes out at 55A at 48V (2700W on my WattsUp...), and because of the extra gearing (using the Nexus 3-speed hub...), it definitely has noticably more low-end torque, and a higher top speed as well. The new setup is a ton lighter as well. If it weren't for the extra racket this makes, I would not hesitate to put this same setup on all my bikes.

I haven't personally tried a geared hubmotor on anything, so I really can't comment on how they would compare to my "benchmark" X5 setups, but my gut tells me that the 1000W model would be comparable, especially at 72V. It would be really great, however, if it will come close to the same sort of performance at only 48V, like the Cyclone 1000W system does. Life is so much easier at 48V.

-- Gary

[kfong]

On my setup I was planning to run 36volts. I recall seeing the bigger motor being more efficient at higher voltages. I’m wondering if your noise can be attributed to the double chain and gears. On mine when I tested it, I wasn’t too bothered by the noise. Not much more than the sound like those oldtime external light generators, but I really won’t know till I test it out with real batteries. I finished wiring the bike and mounting the controller. I will eventually paint the controller black to blend in better. Here are pictures of the mount I made and how the wired up bike looks.





Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[GGoodrum]

Yes, I'm sure the "racket" mine makes is due to the extra chain drive. The first thing I will try is to use a smaller pitch chain, like #25. I'll have to see if I can find a suitable go kart sprocket that I can modify to replace the 44T drive sprocket.

I like the mount you did for the controller. I ended up bolting mine to the the underside of a rear seat post rack.

That motor is a lot longer than the 1000W version. I can definitely see why the longer crank is needed.

-- Gary

[kfong]

Realizing it will be a while before I get the battery packs completed. I got impatient and decided to just try it with 2 dewalt packs unmodified. I’ve seen threads of people doing this on their ebikes but you need to be careful about blowing the bms by drawing too much current. I made sure both packs were close to the same voltage before I parallel them together. Being caution I put an amp meter to see if there would be much current flow. Only a couple amps a first and then the packs settled in. This looked promising and I quickly duct taped the pack to the bike.

On my first run, the motor moved and I was left walking it back from the street. Luckily I didn’t get very far. I then proceeded to tighten everything after realigning the motor. My second run was a complete success. I had the EV grin I then did a speed test. I was able to max out at 26mph. I’m happy with this speed, since the brakes were rather bad on the bike. I’ll have to try new brake pads or something since it takes way too much distance to stop. I then took it to the school yard to ride on the grass. I put it in a lower gear and had a riot. I could not pedal this fast on grass. On the way back I did something stupid. I tried to run the bike from a dead start and popped the bms. I must have drawn too much current. Luckily I had a spare from other discarded pack. I will have to take it easy on the starts until I get the packs completed. The bike wasn’t very noisy. I might need to come up with a better location for the idler, since I see the chain bouncing every so often.

Very pleased with the final results, although this was not what I had originally planned. It will serve as a good commuter bike for errands and such, and I won’t need to worry about it while I have it parked, might even put an ugly front basket and side saddles. It won’t be long before I start the Motobecane conversion now that I’m a converted ebiker

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[Tom]

I've been lurking here for 2 months and have decided on my ebike. Motobecan 08 Fantom or 09 700DS

I ended up pulling the trigger on a 700DS. Too good a deal to pass up with the 30% live.com cash back promotion on ebay buy it now auctions (looks like it's down to 20% now). Net cost was a little under $500 shipped. Would have preferred the Fantom DS for storing batteries in the frame but couldn't find one on ebay.

[kfong]

That was the bike I was going with at first, but ended up liking the Fantom frame a little more. That's a great price! I bet I would of broke down and gone your route since at the time the prices were only a few hundred in difference. The new BMC motors are out, but quite pricey. I'm going to wait a while before I convert my Fantom. It's been a fun bike to ride just by itself.

In the meantime I’ll be finishing the Diamondback. I had to mill out a plate for the idler. The current setup allowed for too much chain movement. It looks like the Cyclone system is going to be left on the Diamondback. I would not want it on my good mountain bike due to the crank offset, but find it perfectly fine for just running around town. It’s going to be my utility ebike that I won’t need to worry about. I’ll probably add a full suspension fork and front disk brake if I can find a good deal on one.

I've been just using 2 dewalt packs to test it out, but I'm starting to like the idea of keeping the packs intact and have them in a plug and play fashion. The BMS is said to have problems, but I think I can work around this. I've already had to repair the fuses and destroyed 2 cells while riding. I will be looking into adding a circuit to use the BMS instead of bypassing it like most are currently doing. I've read that people are having better luck with Milwaukee power packs, since their BMS setup is better. Since I already have all the A123 packs I need, I will be working with what I have. If I were to do it over, Milwaukee is the battery setup I would go with on the Diamondback. I still might go this route since I will be needing the A123 for a custom pack setup for the Fantom eventually.

For a utility ebike setup. Very clean and easy to charge. Cheaper as well. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 304#p27304.
video how to http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... doh#p67330 and the batteries stay under warranty.

Here is the new idler plate.

and what it looks like now.

It's working out better. I don't think it can slip now and I can adjust it easily as well. If you notice, I've had to add a rear kickstand since I could no longer use the normal one.

Kin
http://www.embeddedtronics.com/

[kfong]

I finally had some time to get back to the cylcone conversion. I've been just riding the bike on 2 dewalt packs. As long as I don't go below 29volts the packs are taking the abuse. I've updated the idler part of the bike with a rollerblade wheel. No more chain slipping. Had to get my CNC up an running to get the next part of the bike done. Here are some CNC parts for the batteries and a new top deck for cargo. The deck size is 17inches x 11.5 inches. I should be able to put a milkcrate on this one. Milled a bunch of holes and slots for straps and bungee hooks.

[kfong]

Here is a initial test fit of the battery tray and wood deck. I made the deck wide so it can be used to lock the batteries in, it's long as well so I can use it for cargo. I plan to install a key to allow access to the batteries. The deck will be removable too. I still need to CNC some spacers to finish up the mounting. Waiting for my circuit boards from the board house as well. The circuit boards will allow me to use the dewalt packs without any mods.

[kfong]

Some more updates. I had to redo part of the mounting for the bike rack so it would sit more level. I started to put all the CNC parts together and work out how I wanted the fasteners to mount. So far I'm quite happy with the results.
The batteries slide in nicely and lock using the standard locking setup. The top deck will secure the batteries, once I install a keylock. Currently waiting for the custom circuit boards to be delivered. Should arrive in about a week.
Then I can proceed to do the wiring. Picked up a loud alarm, so that should be a fun install as well.

[pakobike]

Hi, I have just discovered this thread, I have a 500W Cyclone mounted on a full suspension bike.
I think the passage of the chain around the pulley free cyclone is small, it should occupy at least 180 degrees so that the effort is distributed in more links of chain.
attached a picture of my configuration.

Cyclone 500w

DSC03499 JPEG.JPG (95.72 KiB) Viewed 1020 times

I hope you will understand, use an automatic translator.

[kfong]

Thanks. currently It's been running fine the way I have it, but your setup looks more secure.

Just gave it a try, I would have to make changes. I have a slight offset with the motor so the way I currently have it works. I will leave it for now and try to get more chain area when I have more time. Thanks for your input.

[kfong]

Rode the bike yesterday for about 40miles. Carrying 6 packs, I would use 2 packs at a time and swap them out when low. Head home for a recharge and then head back out again, since it was such a nice day out. The battery holder worked great, I had 4 packs on them while the 2 running ones were just strapped on top. It was a good test to see if they can take the abuse of a fixed frame, before I do the final wiring. It worked out much better than I had hoped. No loose movements even after hitting some serious potholes at high speed or going over grass or dirt trails. Batteries were very much a part of the frame, at times I really wished the bike was full suspension, since I had to slow down from being jarred or thrown. Going to put a front suspension fork on this bike next. Even though it's only going to be used around town, there are lots of areas without sidewalks.

[EVnewbie]

Kfong,
Love the build with the Dewalt battery packs! I would love to get those connection boards from you complete with isolatation shottky diodes I assume. If you have a spare three position battery holder laying around, I'll buy one from you! My basic build is a 32V 14 amp controller running Dewalt packs with the wimpy motor running through a 7-speed rear hub. If I do this right, I should be able to squeeze 3 batteries into the front triangle so am very interested in your mounts. My wife wants for me to make an electrically assisted bike that looks "normal" and your triple connector board would make the battery pack look neat.

Big thumbs up on the build, it looks great!

[kfong]

I should have plenty of boards for the dewalts by next week. These boards isolate the separate packs as well as go through the normal fet ouput of the bms in the dewalt, that means they will automatically shut down if the voltages go too low, using dewalts built in safety setup. Even though I've been testing the bike on 2 dewalt packs, I don't recommend people doing this, since the packs are not designed for high current. You should be running a minimum of 3 packs in parallel to keep the current load low. I will eventually have 6 in parallel and that will keep my packs happy.

I don't have any spare battery carriers, but I've seen people make them out of wood or aluminum bar stock. The material I used was polycarbonate, or lexan. Very tough stuff but kinda expensive, I don't know of a cheap source for such material. A wood carrier with aluminum rails would be an easy way to make them.

[kfong]

Woohoo! finally have the boards to finish the dewalt pack.

Here are pictures of the boards on the bench. They work using the internal dewalt BMS. My load is only a 100watt resistor, drawing a little over 3amps. Even this gets hot, so I have a small fan to help cool it. The power analyzer that I'm using can chart the battery drain. At around 27-28 volts the bms cuts off the batteries, so the interface boards are working with the internal bms as expected. Now I need to test it on the bike itself. The bms will shut down if it sees a large spike from the motor. This safety feature isn't desired on an ebike. A 300uh power inductor and a diode across the motor will be needed on some setups to prevent this, but I've tested this on even cheap brushed systems and don't find a need for it. I didn't find it necessary on the cyclone setup as well. Here are charts of the bms working and the board and test setup. Now I can just use the Dewalt pack without having to open them up, and maintain the 3year warranty. As long as you don't push more than 20amps per pack you should have no problems using the dewalt packs as a bike battery. I recommend having at least 3 packs in parallel so the current load is spread out. This will give you 60amps to draw upon. The more you parallel the easier it is on the packs. My setup will have 6 packs for a total of 120amps. As long as you don't exceed the designed current draw, it will last as long as any battery used on dewalt power tools. Dewalt has a good warranty replacement program, and I have been using the packs on my ebike since last year. I have 4 dewalt chargers and find it very convenient to have a full charge in less than an hour.

[kfong]

Some more progress, I was not able to find the proper connectors for the power connections. I ended up picking ones found on Digikey for the source. They do need to be modifed, you can see how I had to file the connectors down so they will work with the interface board.

More pics of the interface boards

Here is how the interface board will be cradled by the carrier. I plan to use plumbers epoxy to secure them into the holder.

[liveforphysics]

Very Cool!

Great work! I love the custom LVC boards!

[kfong]

Thanks, I started a new post on the boards so all technical questions and partslist will be posted there.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10986

[kfong]

I had a setback, when I started this project. I used a old bike rack that was sitting around. Not really noticing the quality or strength of the rack since it was rather new. Well one of the welds broke the other day and after taking it apart. I found I could literally bend the rack with hand pressure. The aluminum rods used is just too thin to be a sturdy rack to hold the weight of the batteries. I’m kind of stuck with the setup since I made the battery mounts custom to this rack, so now I’m in the process of getting the rack more solid with bracing. I still might look into a new rack, if I can modify my setup to fit.

[kfong]

I’ve decided to upgrade the bike rack to a steel one instead of trying to fix the old one. I now need to redo the mounting hardware for the batteries. In the mean time I'm back with running 2 dewalt packs till I get it all sorted out. As you can see from the pictures the weld gave way due to all the riding I’ve been doing. The second one shows the bend in the main spar, this is after I tried straightening it. The aluminum rods are just too thin to handle the loads. I’m pretty hard on my equipment. I’ve already bent the rear rim by going over a curb too fast when I knew I should of slowed down. My next purchase is big fat road tires to take up the impacts I keep giving the bike. This will also give me a much smoother ride as well. I will also be bracing the steel rack as much as I can. I also like how the new rack has the main spare directly above the wheel axial, this one should handle the loads better.

[kfong]

I’m currently still riding with 2 packs, but have to be careful not to draw more than 40amps, especially on starts. This is fine till I get the battery trays worked out for the new bike rack. In the mean time I picked up a set of plastic fenders. This should extend the ability to ride even after a rain storm. They work great, tested them right after a recent storm, clothes remained clean and dry even after going over some puddles at high speeds. I’m getting an average of 9 miles with pedaling on 2 dewalt packs. This covers most of the distances I need for errands. I hope to have the other 4 packs online soon, then I can finally shorten the wiring and clean up the overall look.

[kfong]

Not much in updates. I’ve been having too much fun riding the bike. Since I still haven't electrified my Motobecane mountain bike. I decided to try the Diamond Back on the trails before I get the battery tray installed. I'm only able to run 2 packs strapped to the bike rack, but it's secure enough for trail riding. I wasn’t sure how 2 packs would perform on the hills, but I’m happy to say it’s adequate. I had to slowly ease into the throttle and kept the throttle usually just enough while in low gear. I only had a few cutouts at first, but did not have those issues on my other packs, once I learned how to current manage the motor. I didn’t have any problems with the left cranks being extended; I was usually in second from low or middle gear through out the ride. The trails are single track and technical so you don’t really get to go too fast. The only complaint was the motor being at the bottom. This isn’t good since logs and downed trees would hit the motor. I would have to lift the bike around it. I would get around 6 miles through the trails with pedaling on 2 packs. I spent the afternoon riding out 6 packs. I was having a blast with the bike and didn't want it to end. Only drawback was I would have to ride back and switch packs. Too bad I didn't have a charger setup so I could keep going, but I was out there for quite a while. The bike held together quite well. I was expecting motor mounting problems or controller issues. Only had a loose steering arm that was corrected before my next two packs. It’s a fun setup for the trails; too bad the motor is mounted on the bottom. Happy to say the dewalt interface boards never once came loose or gave me any problems. It's a very good friction fit. They are only plugged in.