DiamondBack, Cyclone 650watts and Dewalt A123 packs

[kfong]

Can’t believe I’m doing this. I decided to upgrade the bike. Originally, I picked up an RST Gila front shock only to be disappointed at the install. The 1” steer tube was too long. I wasn’t too happy with the shock as well. When I saw Oatnet selling frames for $75, and 2 for $100. I couldn’t pass up the deal. This will bring my ebike up to date and allow me to use a better front fork as well. I will be redesigning the motor mount to a higher location. I’m finding the Cyclone setup to work fairly well out on the trails. The frames should arrive soon.

Update on the Motobecane. The bike that started this thread and my journey into ebike land. I’ve been taking my time about this setup, since I really like the bike and didn’t want to change it or the gears. The only option seemed to be a brushless hub motor that was geared so I could use it on the trails. I was tempted to go the RC route, but decided to test that on a spare bike. Can’t be messing with an untried setup on a good bike. When I heard about the BMC 1000watt motor. I waited for it. The long wait had me looking at other options. Since my trail riding, I’m more aware of the power I need. Since I like to pedal for the workout, 600 watts is plenty. I originally wanted the 1000watt motor, thinking that it would be more durable. I have since learned that they both use the same green composite gears. From field reports, the 1000watt motor is also current hungry. I don’t find that too good, since I want long trail rides. They are also having a hard time with controllers, Kelly’s seem to be the current choice but that’s a rather big controller, and I want everything as light as possible. I hate pedaling the current cyclone setup in the trails, but love it when I have battery power. So the ideal setup is to make an e trail bike as light as possible, so if I'm deep in the woods, I can still keep going even if the batteries are dead.

I ended up ordering a 600watt bmc torque motor from Ilia, his pricing is very good and he has been very responsive on email and delivery. My motor will be shipped out next week once the tire build is done. I wanted all in black. Should be another fun ebike project. I now need to get my butt in gear and build up the battery packs. They are Konions from Doctorbass. I was hoping to build a spot welder, but I will just solder them now. I will have to create a new thread for this build.

[oatnet]

When I saw Oatnet selling frames for $75, and 2 for $100. I couldn’t pass up the deal.

Enjoy your frames Kin, it looks like you will have them tomorrow, and I can't wait to see what you do with them!

I ended up ordering a 600watt bmc torque motor from Ilia .... I wanted all in black.

Funny, me too! I am currently waiting for delivery of my 1000w V3 from Ilia, and also asked for all black, in a nice fat Alex DX32 rim, gonna put it on a black frame and build a blackout bike with it. I ordered it a few weeks ago, but delayed shipping to get the black rim, and later for black spokes.

-JD

[kfong]

Nice, can't wait to see what you do with the 1000w bmc. Did you settle on a controller, what voltages are you planning to run. The 1000w motor is very similar to the 600w torque until you up the voltages. This is from what I've read on earlier posts and what I was starting to suspect. I'm not familiar with blackout bikes. Is there a link to the bike on the web?

[oatnet]

Nice, can't wait to see what you do with the 1000w bmc. Did you settle on a controller, what voltages are you planning to run. The 1000w motor is very similar to the 600w torque until you up the voltages. This is from what I've read on earlier posts and what I was starting to suspect. I'm not familiar with blackout bikes. Is there a link to the bike on the web?

I'm going to start at 72v, and I want to test a few controllers I have laying about with it, first a 72v20a analog xlyte, then a 72v50a "knuckles" infineon, then a 72v100a Kelly. Depending on whether the Kelly can handle the RPM, I might buy the 120v Kelly for some sick speed testing, and I might migrate it to a full suspension frame at that point.

By 'blackout' I just mean all black. . I have a black Tidalforce IO Cruiser frame (HT), and I just picked up an old Rock Shox Boxxer in black, and a 20mm through-axle hub that I'm going to mount on black DX32 rim with black spokes, just like the V3. The only thing not gloss black will be the rim brake surfaces, the fork stanchion tubes, and the 203mm disk rotors (unless I find them in black too)

-JD

[kfong]

Woohoo, got my frames from Oatnet. Have to say they are very well made and solid. The frames are aluminum and fairly light. The quality is excellent. Here are pics. They were well packaged. Ended up ordering 2 but needed only one. Now to decide on which color to go with. Waiting on my front fork, picked up a rockshock tora SL, waiting on that before I progress further. I plan to move the components from my old bikes for now and later upgrade to disk brakes, ect, when the need arises. Really looking forward to riding the bike with a front suspension, my wrists were taking a beating after a 1000 ebike miles. Very happy with the frame geometry, it compares to my Motobecane. Should have a similar feel.

[oatnet]

I'm glad you are pleased with your frames!

I resolved my wrist problems by switching to Ergon Grips a ways back. The big pads that your palms rest on keeps your wrists at the proper angle and help distribute the weight. I had to figure out how to adjust them though, so the pad keeps your hand in a normal position. The GC2 is about $30-$35, they have a whole range of lightweight/more expensive ones too, and some cheaper ones without the palm pads that I think miss the point.

-JD

[kfong]

Thanks JD, I will look for those.

I finally got my BMC motor. It's the 600 watt torque version. The phase wires look too thin, so I plan to beef them up, once I check everything out. I'm disappointed with the wheel build. It was not dished properly. Actually it was not dished at all! This is a common thing that bike shops do for rear tires. I picked up the wheel from Ilia; He needs to get a better wheel builder. Looks like I will have to find a place local to redo it. I was hoping I didn’t have to deal with this part of the build. Has anyone done there own dishing, how difficult is it? Here are pictures of the wheel mounted on the bike. You can see the wheel is not centered and is off to the left a noticeable amount. This is really unacceptable, the spokes also seem like they are not tensioned enough. My original wheel has a higher pitch.

Here are picture of the cycle analyst, the 35amp/72 volt crystalyte controller and my CNC battery tray. I will anodize it black once the parts are finalized. I’m going to start a new thread on the BMC motor since the current cyclone build is evolving into the Tidal Force, so I will keep this thread for that build.

Thread for the BMC build
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12654

[alswiseowl]

Hi kfong,
just a couple of q's,when you where running the 650watt cyclone at 36v how did it go,
good enought for torque and hills or would 48v be better,thanks
its just that im stuck in between choosing the 36v900watt kit or the 48v1200watt kit..
either way i also would be interested in these dewalt pack set you have made easy to rig up,
thanks

[kfong]

I'm happy with the setup since I really don't need to go fast on a bike. With it on second from granny gear I get from 18-19mph and good efficiency. With this on 3 packs I get from 8-9 miles with little or no pedaling. If I want to go faster I can put it in higher gear and get it easily to 25mph, but loose efficiency. Since the bike is only rim brakes, stopping distance is rather bad, so I’m content to go slower. Since I ride on the sidewalks a lot, going fast is not really a good idea. The motor stays at a comfortable heat range and seems to be lasting at this voltage. I think the 900 watt kit is the same motor, just higher voltage. Might even be the same controller, hard to say for sure. I'm using the setup for the trails, usually riding in the granny gear and it has no problem going up steep hills. I usually pedal too to get up faster. Hard to go fast through single track without getting hurt, quite happy with it on the trails. Motor seems fine even on a 90deg day.

Hi kfong,
just a couple of q's,when you where running the 650watt cyclone at 36v how did it go,
good enought for torque and hills or would 48v be better,thanks
its just that im stuck in between choosing the 36v900watt kit or the 48v1200watt kit..
either way i also would be interested in these dewalt pack set you have made easy to rig up,
thanks

[kfong]

It was hard for me to tear down the Diamond back; it’s been such a great work horse and fun as well on the trails. I think I will hold off till winter to get the Tidal Force completed. Who knows, I might end up with yet another ebike. I’ve been thinking a dual hub setup would be very cool to have on the trails. Both wheels would provide quite a bit of traction. I had dismissed hub motors for trail use but with two motors I think traction for hill climbing could be possible and still be a fairly light setup. I know a 5000 series crystalite hub motor with lots of voltage would do it, but pedaling such a beast in the trails is not something I ever want to do. Here is the latest picture of the Diamond back, I did a quick stop at the grocery this morning. Hard to be without an ebike, been using it for local errands a lot and I still bash it on the trails. Freewheel needs to be changed out, been holding up so far.

The latest addition is fake leather upholstery material for the battery cover. I picked it up at the local fabric store. I used velcro to put it all together. Quick and easy to make. It looks like it's part of the bike. This is for leaving it outside stores, ect. I also leave the bike looking trashed so it gets little attention.

[kfong]

I had some breakdowns; this is after a whole summer of trail riding. For those using the Cyclone setup. I recommend putting fiber lock nuts and extend the current bolts to .5inch. So the fiber lock nuts can be used, it will clear the cranks, but just barely. I had only one bolt left while riding on the trail. I was lucky to glance down and see it. If I lost that one bolt. I would have lost the crank and it would have been a long walk back pushing the bike in a bug infested trail. Over time these screws attaching the freewheel and front gear will loosen up. Best to use lock nuts. Also had my first flat, surprised I didn’t get more this summer, since I’m only using a standard old mountain bike tire that is more for street use, without any puncture resistance. I don’t trust the traction of these tires if the trails are wet, but fine with it otherwise. It’s been another fun summer with the cyclone. If you remember my first impression with it was rather negative. But after 2 seasons of riding, the motor and rest of the system are doing quite well. I would buy this setup again, it’s that much fun. The freewheel is the only weak link in the system. It’s still holding up for me, so I will continue to use it till it actually slips.

[alswiseowl]

HI kfong,
the 900watt motor is also rated for 36v,same as your 650watt kit,
maybe the 900watt controller has a higher amps it draws,i think the 900watt controller is rated for 35amps.
im not to sure for the 650watt controller maybe 20-25amps ???...
thanks

[kfong]

It would be cool to compare both setups side by side. I really think it's just a numbers game. The only difference being the controller, having higher rated components to handle the current and voltage increase. This would mean one could easily mod the controllers with better rated fets and caps.

[kfong]

2/2/2010 Update on the Cyclone build. I just could not tear the bike down this winter like I had planned. It’s been such a great ebike.The reason is because it’s just too practical for errands and makes a perfect utility bike for my needs. I like the 1 hour charge time and the ability to have packs charged when I need them. I also like the fact that I don’t have to carry more batteries than needed just to get to the corner store. The Dewalt packs are still strong after two hard seasons and have been problem free and well over 2000 miles of riding. The bike draws very little attention as well since the motor is very low on the bike. It has been amazingly reliable even after all the trail riding I’ve put it through. It also looks beat up so that helps in the theft department, and I feel comfortable leaving it when I go shopping. This won’t be the case with the newer builds.

One other thing, this past fall while trail riding. I had been really abusive with the bike, practicing small jumps. I had totally bent the rear rim, was able to finish my ride. When I got back and looked at the damage, decided to just swap it out with a spare rear wheel I had since I had actually bent the axel as well. This was nice, since it makes the bike a very easy one to keep running. If it had been a hub motor. I would not have been riding the same day or week.

The Tidalforce frame I purchased to upgrade the bike will be another build. On this bike I plan to put a large Turnigy HTX. I will start a new thread on it once I finish the BMC build.

[PeteCress]

Has anyone done there own dishing, how difficult is it?

I build my own wheels and would say if

• The wheel is already built
• There isn't any hop in the wheel
• There isn't too much wobble in the wheel

Dishing should be easy, albeit time-consuming.

Take a reference point for where the center of the wheel is now.

Then loosen each spoke 1/4 turn on one side and tighten each spoke 1/4 turn on the other side.

Now measure how much the wheel has moved, compare that to how much the wheel needs to move, and proceed accordingly.

When I build a wheel, the end product has all the nipples aligned the same - so that a quarter turn of the spoke wrench moves from the wrench being aligned parallel to the wheel to being aligned at 90 degrees to the wheel. That makes the quarter turn thing easier to do - and I've found that a quarter turn is the maximum granularity that I ever need.

[kfong]

Bummer, I had my first serious breakdown. I was out riding the trails the past two days. Spring has started early this year and the trails are already very ridable. Near the end of my second lap, the aluminum bracket supplied by cyclone fatigue and tore. Fortunately I was about a mile out and could coast half of the way back.

I’m actually surprised it lasted this long now that I look at it, since it’s really not well supported. The motor is held on by two bolts and the cantilever action eventually stress cracked the aluminum. I don’t think this would have broken if I used it only for normal street riding. I did so much trail riding last year and some the year before that it has taken its toll on the bike, with all the jumps and logs I had to go over. I will now have to rebuild the motor mount. Unfortunately, I don’t have spare working ebike and even if I did I would still want to use this one for groceries and errands. I will have to get it fixed over the weekend. I also need to make a new chain cover, the one supplied by cyclone broke on me yesterday while trail riding.

[kfong]

Started thinking of how I wanted to redo the motor mount. I could have moved the motor to the front tube, but decide it would be a lot of work and wanted to keep it simple. So I'm just going to keep the same setup. Here is the improved motor mount. I will have to start on the machining. Here is another view of the broken one.

During the inspection I noticed the bottom bracket bearings were loose. I had replaced them last year, looks like I will need to replaced again. Here was a good tip from the bike shop. Just put in more bearings without the retainer, more surface area. I ended up putting in 11 new bearings held in by grease. It should be better than the original setup now.

[amberwolf]

Another thing I have found helps bearing life in BBs is to totally clean out the whole BB, really scrub it down with degreaser and wash it out, including the crankshaft and all the retainers/etc., till they're shiny new looking.

Get high-temperature grease like for car wheel bearings, differentials or similar; I use a tube of red grease called "Mystik JT-6", by CITGO. I know what I have is old so I don't know if the identical one is still available anywhere, but something similar should be. It's listed as an NLGI #2 grease, for wheel bearings, chassis, etc. It's "dropping point" is listed as 550F, so it *never* gets gooey or runs or leaks on any bicycle stuff I've used it on. It's way overkill, but it works.

Coat a paper towel with the grease, and stuff it up into the seat tube (from inside the BB) a little ways, basically to plug the tube from leaking anything down into the BB. Do the same with the chainstays and the downtube (or any tubes connecting to the BB). If you like, you can also do this at the other ends of those same tubes, to prevent anything from getting inside them in the first place.

Fill the whole BB with the grease, as you install the bearings (packed with the grease) and crankshaft (coated with the grease), so you have essentially a solid BB with nowhere for dust, dirt, or mud or water to get in there to deposit stuff onto the bearings in the first place. Then the only wear will be from stress grinding away bearing or race surfaces, and leaving metal deposits in the grease. Can't change that.

I do the same thing with my wheel axles/hubs.

It adds some friction, but it keeps wear to a minimum, and given the flinty dirt we have around here in Phoenix, keeping the dirt out of the bearings is necessary.

[kfong]

Amberwolf, I did pack it in with lots of bearing grease. I also slipped on some o-rings on the outside to see if that helps to keep the dirt from entering. It probably has no effect since there isn't anything to keep it pressed to the sides, but I had them laying around so it was worth a try.

Now that I have the bike torn down, I thought it would be a good time look at the motor. I have never taken apart this motor. It has over 2000 miles on it and still running strong. The grease looks like it’s doing its job. I’m tempted to just close it up again and leave it be. The grease is quite black though but very sticky stuff and was difficult to wash off my hands. I have some high temp automotive bearing grease I can use but perhaps it’s best to leave it alone since I don’t see much wear?

[amberwolf]

Black grease is probably fine, because it might be black originally. If it appears to be a different color in areas where it is never moved around by the motion inside (There are usually a few little spots like that), then there are contaminants in it in the rest of where it *is* being moved around, probably ground off the mating surfaces.

If you see metallic particles in it, then changing it might be helpful to prevent further wear by the particles against the mating surfaces.

If it's steel mating surfaces but you don't see actual particles, yet suspect the blackness is from the surfaces, then theoretically you could take a tiny pinch of grease and dissolve it in a clear degreaser in a clear container, tape a magnet on the outside and see if the area near the magnet discolors while the rest gets clearer, and then you'll know if it's got worn-off metal in the grease, in which case changing it may slow further wear.

[kfong]

I ended up just putting the motor back together, seems like the original grease has been doing its job. Finally finished getting the bike repaired and rode it around today doing some errands. It’s good to have this bike running again since it’s the only one I want to use for shopping. I’m very happy with the new setup. It’s a bit over built but I wanted the bottom of the motor protected from logs and rocks. I also needed the thick spacing to provide clearance. I don’t think this motor mount will move around or break now. I also replaced the chain guard with a polycarbonate plate. It should be good weather tomorrow, so I’ll be able to test it out on the trails. I’ll probably anodize the aluminum black so it doesn’t stand out so much. I’m also in the process of adding more packs in the triangle.

[LI-ghtcycle]

Looks good Kin!

Glad to hear it's still going strong (even though you had to replace the motor bracket), I wonder how many of us put as much abuse on their E-Bikes as you and have had as little trouble. I'd like to take mine off-road too, but I'm still torn as how to set-up the tires.

I think I should get some good schwalbe tires and that they would pay for themselves in longevity, but I'm realizing that I first need to fill my triangle with adequate amount of batteries to power my bike AND lights and not stress them.

Once I have my battery situation resolved, then I will worry about better tires, and I'd still really like to go with a custom BMS & charger to charge the pack rather than my current set-up where it takes several hours to charge up since I have only a couple chargers and lots of batteries. I thought about just buying more Dewalt chargers, but the same money would buy me a custom charger to my specs.

[kfong]

I rode my bike to the post office this morning, got back and charged the 3 packs I used. I had a quick lunch and headed out to the trails with 6 packs. I had a great session, bike felt really solid, must have gained a little bit of efficiency since my distance was a little farther and I’m just starting the biking season. The new setup has the chains lined up better and its smoother all around. Even the throttle response feels more crisp. Not bad for a beater bike that I can run errands with and then take it out to the trails to bash on. I did some small jumps with the bike but did not see any big logs that would have tested the motor guard.

LI-ghtcycle, I’m just using standard mountain bike tires, but I see your point if it’s a hub motor. The part that’s not lasting on me are the rims and spokes. Broke some last year riding and bent the rims several times, the last straw was when I actually bent the axial. Currently riding the rear tire off my old Mongoose mountain bike, already had to adjust it from my last ride where I had the breakdown, must of hit something harder than I thought. With my BMC motor build, I hope the spoke and rim hold since it would really be a pain to repair.

[kfong]

The weather has been great the last few days for riding, over 70deg today. I went out for another trail ride. I’ve been riding the bike rather hard thinking that it can take the abuse. Did a bunch of small jumps, but since it was single track; one jump in particular didn’t have much room for error. Unfortunately, I erred. The handle bar hit the tree and I did a quick bail. I actually went over the handle bar, but luckily the ground was sloping down. I would have liked to have seen it on video since I was still standing when I hit the ground running. Not sure how I accomplished this feat. I only had a scrape when my left leg went past the offending tree. Even the bike was ok, so I kept making small jumps when I could.

Unfortunately this is the result of all the jumping. The rear steel rack broke at the anchor points during one jump. I really thought this new rack would hold up. It looks like I’ll have to look for a stronger one, but don’t like the fact that I would have to create new mounts for it. I might see if I can repair it some how with a new steel plate and some carbon fiber and Kevlar. I don’t have a welder so I would have to go this route. Not happy with the amount of breakdowns I’ve been getting lately.

[amberwolf]

I might see if I can repair it some how with a new steel plate and some carbon fiber and Kevlar. I don’t have a welder so I would have to go this route. Not happy with the amount of breakdowns I’ve been getting lately.

That's this rack, right?
download/file.php?id=24277
which replaced this one?
download/file.php?id=24276

Do you have an old steel bike U-fork or 10-speed style "aero" fork laying around, with pinched-style dropouts? If so, you can cut just a few inches of the very end of the fork off, at the dropouts end, slit them lengthwise with a hacksaw (you may need multiple slits to take out enough material to allow proper clamping, or very wide slits), and hose clamp that in at least two places along the length onto your rack's existing ends. Then use the old dropouts to bolt back to the seatclamp bolts as before.

It's nowhere near as good as welding but it will work, as long as the forks you use aren't hugely different in diameter than the rack's tubing.