Having trouble deciding what to use on my ebike build

P

PizzaWizard

1 mW
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
13
Location
Minnesota
I'm looking into building an ebike this winter that I can start using next spring. I want to start using it as a bit of a car replacement. Commuting to work, buying groceries, etc... Most of the places I go are within a 10 mile radius, so I want 20-30 mile range. I also want it to be fun. I used to ride a motorcycle and I kind of miss the acceleration... I might want to try riding some trails, dirt roads, riding in snow, etc... I'm willing to spend about $1200-1500 on this (not including the bike).

I already have a bike that I think will work great. It's a Motobecane 529HT. Hardtail, front suspension, disc brakes, 29" wheels.

My original thought was to just get a BBSHD paired with a 52v 20ah battery. I figured out the total cost is around $1300ish. Easy enough. It was appealing to me because I heard they have better acceleration at low speeds, weight is more balanced, pedal assist modes sound nice as well.

The more I read though, the more interested I am in a rear hub motors. I like that they don't wear out the drivetrain, and they are more reliable. I was looking at this one Leaf 1500W 29" hub kit. Since it's about $300 cheaper I could afford upgrade the controller and battery too, maybe run it at 2000 watts (or more idk).

So anyways...now that I have rambled on for a bit, my question is do you think I would be satisfied with the rear hub motor? Would it be capable of the occasional light trail ride and hooning around in the snow? Or would I be better off with the BBSHD?
 
I'm a firm believer in the KISS theory in Ebike building, especially the first one. While mid-drives have their uses, I feel when a hub motor will meet the goals, it's the way to go. Simpler w/ no need to row the shifter.
I also feel that w/out a rear suspension, you really don't need to go faster than 25 mph(to save your back). To me, the mid 20's mph is the "sweet spot" for ebiking, fast enough to be fun and cover ground, but not so fast as to startle drivers and tax the limits of the donor bike.
The Leaf motor you linked is nothing special. It's a direct drive version of a very common model called the 9C and is avail. on Ebay for a lot less money under the Yesusa moniker. It a good deal for a rider on a strict budget and cruises long distances w/out much stop and go. It will also take a lot of Volts, in fact, needs lots for performance. It's also as big as a Frisbee, heavy and prone to "clogging"(electrical interference when coasting).
But it's not what I would pick. I would go w/ a larger geared motor, what I call the UCM(Universal Chinese Motor). These would include the BPM, the Ezee, the MAC and others, They are free-wheeling and of moderate size and weight. IMO, a much better motor for lite trail riding.
The BPM is the least expensive and is offered by the Big Chinese vendors, what I call the "first tier" of vendors, like BMS Battery and Elifebike. Not much personal attention, they can be a good deal if one knows exactly what he wants.
The next step up, in terms of motor quality and service, which I think you can afford, is Ev3em. This is a Co. in China that is run by an Englishman that has been a member here for,....ever. I suggest to look at Paul's site, with an eye towards the MAC and one of his custom "triangle" batt. packs. If you are stuck w/ a hardtail, you might as well use it's strength, the open space in the frame for the batt.
Others will come on here w/ what they think is best, but I think it's safe to say that, over the years, there has been more successful, "do anything kind of bike" builds, using a single rear, geared hub motor, than any other type of build.

https://em3ev.com/
 
motomech said:
I'm a firm believer in the KISS theory in Ebike building, especially the first one. While mid-drives have their uses, I feel when a hub motor will meet the goals, it's the way to go. Simpler w/ no need to row the shifter.
I also feel that w/out a rear suspension, you really don't need to go faster than 25 mph(to save your back). To me, the mid 20's mph is the "sweet spot" for ebiking, fast enough to be fun and cover ground, but not so fast as to startle drivers and tax the limits of the donor bike.
The Leaf motor you linked is nothing special. It's a direct drive version of a very common model called the 9C and is avail. on Ebay for a lot less money under the Yesusa moniker. It a good deal for a rider on a strict budget and cruises long distances w/out much stop and go. It will also take a lot of Volts, in fact, needs lots for performance. It's also as big as a Frisbee, heavy and prone to "clogging"(electrical interference when coasting).
But it's not what I would pick. I would go w/ a larger geared motor, what I call the UCM(Universal Chinese Motor). These would include the BPM, the Ezee, the MAC and others, They are free-wheeling and of moderate size and weight. IMO, a much better motor for lite trail riding.
The BPM is the least expensive and is offered by the Big Chinese vendors, what I call the "first tier" of vendors, like BMS Battery and Elifebike. Not much personal attention, they can be a good deal if one knows exactly what he wants.
The next step up, in terms of motor quality and service, which I think you can afford, is Ev3em. This is a Co. in China that is run by an Englishman that has been a member here for,....ever. I suggest to look at Paul's site, with an eye towards the MAC and one of his custom "triangle" batt. packs. If you are stuck w/ a hardtail, you might as well use it's strength, the open space in the frame for the batt.
Others will come on here w/ what they think is best, but I think it's safe to say that, over the years, there has been more successful, "do anything kind of bike" builds, using a single rear, geared hub motor, than any other type of build.

https://em3ev.com/
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestions. I haven't really looked into geared motors that much so I will have to check those out. I was already planning on buying my battery from ev3em, so I'll take a look at their hubs too.

I maybe should have mentioned that I am not really interested in top speed, so I'm with you on not going over 25mph. If there's one thing I remember from riding a motorcycle...driving fast is boring, accelerating quickly from a stop is the fun part lol. That's the reason I'm looking for a bit of power.
 
I can give the Mac motor a High Rating. EM3ev.com has them with the controllers and C.A. that works well with it.

I have a couple of Q100c CST Rear Hub Motors , and a Mac 6T Rear Hub Motor .

I like the lighter weight of the little Q100c motors better , but anytime I want to go over 19 mph and/or haul anything , I always ride the bike with the Mac motor on it even though it is over 15 pounds heavier.

I consider the Mac Build to be my " Work Horse " over 1,400 miles on it now with no drive train wear.

I would not get a DD hub motor unless it was under 7 pounds, which there are none, so I do not ever see myself getting one, The Mac will do most everything. ( except climbing up steep hills , over 10 % that are also long )


The Q100c Hub is on a Road Bike, and Mac 6T on a mountain bike with front suspension, and very important if you have a hard tail, get a good suspension seat post.

If you want fast acceleration get the 10T Mac, or even the 12 T , with higher voltage like 14s pack, and alot of amps.

Mac's are best to be kept at 30 amps or less from what Paul says. A cycle analyst is good to have for adjusting your amp draw.

Grin Technologies is a great place to get good products, more $ but great products.

I will be getting a Mid-Drive in the Future, but Only because I live in a area where I have Hills, with steep slopes and even Mountains to go up.

At that time I will be looking into getting the lightest weight Mid-Drive available at the time.

So for now the Rear Hub motors are working out just fine, as long as I do not climb any steep hills over 12% or so.
 
It's a lot easier to "overclock" a DD hubmotor than a middrive like the BBS--the hubmotor can shed the heat easier (or be easily modified to do so), if it's only intermittent high power bursts. Plus the higher the power the harder it is on the chain and sprockets with a middrive; if there's too much torque for the gear you're in it can slip the chain; and depending on your setup and speed you have to keep shifting up as you accelerate (cutting power for an instant each shift), and down as you slow down.


On my SB Cruiser trike, I think between the two DD hubs it's around 5500w netting me sub-4-seconds acceleration 0-20MPH. Something around 4000w on 2WD with CrazyBike2 got me down to 4 seconds (it's a lot lighter).

Yeah, it's fun, but it's also practical/safe if I have to get out of the way of someone that thinks they need the spot I'm in, or if I'm stuck at the head of a line of traffic waiting at a red light--if I'm suddenly not in front of them anymore the impatient ones don't seem to feel as much need to run me over when the light turns green.



Geared hubmotors are less tolerant of the higher power levels, either because of their longer heat path (longer to cool down) or their gears/clutch, or both. But they can also provide plenty of acceleration, with the right controller/etc.

I'm still working on a dual-geared-hub version of the trike, but I've used single geared hubs on bikes and a trike before, and they work well enough--the lighter the setup, the better, for those.
 
I think if you liked the motorcycle, you will like 2000w best. Get the leaf, and run it on 48v 40 amps controller. The battery will have to upgrade to something able to handle about twice that (40 amps), so it doesn't suffer too much as you out accelerate cars at the stop lights.

You should have a pretty safe top speed for a bike, well under 40 mph. But lots of zoom zoom to that speed.

It will also be strong enough to tow a large trailer full of groceries, with no sweat.

Later on if you wish, you can consider going to higher voltage. But its a tricky thing riding in a city with real motorcycle speed, but mere bike tires and brakes. You need that rubber to really ride motorcycle speeds, not that pitifully small contact patch of a bicycle tire.
One option if you choose to go with 72v right away, is get a direct plug in cycleanalyst, so you can limit amps, or speed. I do this with my current street bike, I'm running 60v, but limit amps to 25 amps. This way my max speed is only about 35 mph, where the high speed wobble starts for that bike. I can bump up to 40 mph, but not on that bike! I would do the bump only to get up a very steep hill. Otherwise 25 amps is plenty powerful, and fun. In general, I ride it about 20 mph, so I can pedal a comfy cadence. But if I need 35 mph briefly, its there.
 
Thanks for the input everyone! I think at this point I have ruled out the BBSHD. It just seems counter intuitive to put all that power directly into the cranks.

amberwolf said:
It's a lot easier to "overclock" a DD hubmotor than a middrive like the BBS
Click to expand...

This is basically what got me thinking about direct drive in the first place. I saw one too many youtube videos with souped up DD's and thought it looked fun, and with a cycle analyst I can just limit the power when I commute. The Mac motor sounds good too though because of the weight. I hadn't really considered what it will be like having a 20lb weight on my rear tire until someone here pointed it out. It would also be nice to be a bit stealthier.

Now I just need to spend several days having an internal conflict about this until I finally go crazy and impulse buy one of them.
 
Since you mention the intent of riding off road, and like hard acceleration, I believe that a DD hub is your best choice for both, performance and reliability. The weight of the rear wheel does require a good wheel build and some work on weight distribution when building the bike, but it does make the most reliable commuter bike of all.
 
front hub for riding in dirt, trails, etc. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pure commuter, sure, especially for a bike that requires a front hub, like a coaster brakes beach cruiser.

FWIW, the mac makes a VERY GOOD commuter bike, and if you don't expect motorcycle like performance, it can be a great off road motor too.

But you are gonna like 2000w a LOT more than 1000. Two bikes does make some sense though, a more simple, lighter, less eye catching commuter bike that does not require a mega battery to start with is not a bad idea at all. ( 35 mph + makes people look at you like this. :shock: ) But later, you will want your off road, motorcycle like bike.

FWIW this is my fast street bike, with big DD motor.6-1-2015 Schwinn Cruiser with 52 t crank.JPG

This is my fast dirt ride. with big DD motor. Its for roads, not bike trails. This bike would be a lot better if it had space for the battery in the frame. But in 2005, it was Y frames. View attachment 1

Lastly, my trail bike. This one has a motor similar to the mac, running 1000w. Its got power for hills, but not enough to ruin lovingly cared for MTB singletracks. So I get away with riding those trails, without a lot of people pissed at me for having a motor. Its another antiquated Y frame, but on this bike that battery is only 8 pounds, and does not affect the ride much. P8210009.JPG
 
So I've been coming up with a shopping list. Think I got it almost all pinned down. Starting to think I'm really overbuilding this, but then again I want it to be fun right? :p I can always tune it down for my regular commutes. Anyone see anything I'm missing?

Leaf 1500w Hub motor + Rim - $210
https://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike-hub-motor/gearless-20-24-26-700c-28-29-inch/newest-700c-48v-1500w-rear-hub-motor-wheel-1096.html

Controller 18fet 60amp Max - $157
https://em3ev.com/shop/18-fet-irfb4110-infineon-controller/

Programming cable for motor controller - $10
https://em3ev.com/shop/eb3-infineon-program-lead/

Battery 14S-9p-25r 52V 22Ah 180Amp max - $735
https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s9p-large-triangle-pack/

Cycle Satiator battery charger - $295
https://em3ev.com/shop/satiator/

Cycle Analyst V3 - $130
https://em3ev.com/shop/ca3-cycle-analyst-ebike-computer-ca-dps/

CA3 programming cable (not sure if I need this?) - $18
https://em3ev.com/shop/cycle-analyst-programme-cable/

Mounting Bracket - $5
https://em3ev.com/shop/cycle-analyst-mounting-bracket/

PAS sensor - $20
https://em3ev.com/shop/ca3-cycle-analyst-pas-speed-sensor/

3 speed Switch - $7
https://em3ev.com/shop/3-speed-switch-for-em3ev-infineon-controller-or-ca3/

Throttle - $7
https://em3ev.com/shop/right-thumb-throttle-type-1/

Ebrake Sensor x2 - $4
https://em3ev.com/shop/generic-ebrake-sensor/

Torque Arms (still need to research these)
https://em3ev.com/shop/grin-tech-torque-arm/
 
I've also been toying around with the idea of building a smaller bike first... I've got an old beater mountain bike that I fixed up a couple of years ago. It's got a steel frame, no suspension and it was made in the 80's. I was thinking of getting a cheap BPM2 kit to put on it just to see if I like it before I spend the big bucks on a powerful bike.
 
Looking back at this I have to laugh,

I was buying a controller and C.A. from someone last week and he had a old ( perhaps around 2013 ) so not so old/ and still new , DD Hub motor sitting in the box, already laced up to a 26 inch rim with heavy stainless steel spokes.
Always wondering why people like Dogman Dan, and MadRhino , and others like DD hub motors, I bought it to experiment with.

It weighs 15.5 pounds with the Rim/Spokes/and 7 speed freewheel , I am guessing that my Mac 6T is 11.5-12 pounds with the Rim/Spokes/8 speed freewheel.
so
Only about 4 pounds more.

It was sold by Solarbike, they do not have any spec's on their website , and an e-mail to them got no answers other than they only do 36 or 48 volt battery packs and put up to 25 amps through it. What is the sense in only that much ? I do that with my Mac right now.

From what research I have done, it looks to be a MXUS V1 ( XF 40 )

Dogman Dan, MadRhino, and others, if you had that motor in the past, what is it capable of doing in terms of Highest Voltage, Highest Amps , or High Amps with Mid Voltage levels ?

Pizza Wizzard, not sure what you will get for your first build to get started, but the MXUS V1 is not that much heavier than a Mac. It would not be quite as much power as the Leaf, ( wonder what the Leaf weight is built up, add 2-2.5 pounds to just the hub ) but it sounds like you want to start off a little slower in speed which is a good Idea, 30 mph on a bike is a speed where you do not look much at the scenery , but really have to pay attention to things on the road, driveways , etc.






ScooterMan101 said:
I would not get a DD hub motor unless it was under 7 pounds, which there are none, so I do not ever see myself getting one, The Mac will do most everything. ( except climbing up steep hills , over 10 % that are also long )
Click to expand...
 
If you are planning to travel over 30 MPH, you might consider using a full suspension bike with larger street tires. Hitting ruts and uneven road surfaces can be hard on the rider as well as bike.
 
heavymetalthunder said:
If you are planning to travel over 30 MPH, you might consider using a full suspension bike with larger street tires. Hitting ruts and uneven road surfaces can be hard on the rider as well as bike.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I keep hearing this same advice about full suspension. My commute is actually entirely on paved bike trails, so I at least for that it won't be a big deal. I want to use the bike that I have for now. Maybe I'll get a full suspension sometime after.
 
Hey PizzaWizard,

I am planning to do a build very similar to yours and looking at many of the same components. I was wondering about the wheel choice you made for the 29er. You showed the 700c wheel in your list of items, but initially you had mentioned the 29" version. I see the cost is quite a bit less for the 700c. Do you know what the differences are? Is the 700c more for a commuter bike tire (narrower)? I would like to use a relatively standard mountain bike tire, a bit wider than what a commuter bike would be since I think it may be safer at speed. Do you know if this would work on the 700c wheel? It looks like LeafBike will send a wider rim if requested, but I haven't contacted them to see what size tire would fit.

Thanks,
Tim
 
ScooterMan101 said:
It was sold by Solarbike...

Dogman Dan, MadRhino, and others, if you had that motor in the past, what is it capable of doing in terms of Highest Voltage, Highest Amps , or High Amps with Mid Voltage levels ?
Click to expand...

Sorry for the late answer, I had not noticed this post before.

I don’t know this motor, and I am into much bigger ones. Yet, any DD hub can be fed much higher power and voltage than what it is rated for. Voltage is not a problem and I would feed it for the speed that I want no matter what. I usually feed 100v hot (24s RC Lipo).

The max power it is capable to sustain is in relation to size and weight of the motor, and the bike. Since it is light weight, I would start with 2000 W limit and progressively increase the time, starting with 3 seconds bursts and monitor temp. If it is not overheating when fed bursts of 2000 W at every start on street corners for 5 miles, then I would test higher power (or longer rides) until I find its limits.

It is the most important thing that we need to know, and be conscious at all times. How much power for how long bursts, and how long a distance, before it gets dangerously hot.

After you know that on the flat, repeat the series of tests uphill. Find the limits of the motor, then set a little lower.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Battery compatibility questions for first build. Tips appreciated
Replies
4
Views
118
docw009
docw009
Cyb0rg d3ck3r
New Fat Tire BBSHD Build From Scratch! Need HELP Selecting Components!
Replies
16
Views
508
Bullfrog
B
Motobecane50
    • Like
You can check out my 50V conversion build here: Home | My Site
Replies
2
Views
668
griffondude
G
R
    • Like
A critique of mid-drive riding recommendations (and hub drive criticisms)
Replies
15
Views
5,144
Bullfrog
B
R
    • Like
Really good article comparing Bafang vs. Tongsheng vs. CYC
Replies
12
Views
10,572
999zip999
999zip999
Back
Top