Adding hall sensors to outrunners

[Cr3am]

Hey guys, just to let you know of my progress.
I made a plastic ring that goes around the motor and fits perfectly, its made from a soffit vent ring from B&Q.
Anyway, I purchased 3 SS411A sensors from RS, £1.30 each and wired them + - 0.
We mounted the sensors at 120 degrees around the ring and placed it over the motor about half way.
Without timing it we tried it anyway to see what would happen and it worked PERFECTLY, even under extreme load! wow.
All my problems have been solved!
I will be tiding up the installation and seeing if timing it improves it at all.
I would like to thank all you guys for your help, problem solved in a matter of days!
I will be posting pics/video soon.
Thanks.
Cr3am.

[nieles]

hi,

i also added some hall sensors to my turnigy 6374 brushless motor.. and i am very pleased with it. much smoother than with a sensorless controller.

it is cnc'ed from some clear acrylic i had laying around.

foto1.jpg (52.01 KiB) Viewed 1656 times

foto2.jpg (53.62 KiB) Viewed 1667 times

foto3.jpg (61.72 KiB) Viewed 1466 times

[gwhy!]

hi,

i also added some hall sensors to my turnigy 6374 brushless motor.. and i am very pleased with it. much smoother than with a sensorless controller.

it is cnc'ed from some clear acrylic i had laying around.

Now that looks very nice. cool

[nieles]

gwhy, Thanks!

the idea is there.. i need to put some time in the idea to ajust the timing..

right now i can change the timing by rotating the whole alu plate, but this can not be done when the motor is mounted.

if there is any interest i will look into making a few more of the acrilic parts.

[Fabbe]

Hey guys,

If I use winding sequence AabBCcaABbcC for a 12 teeth/14 pole motor and I want to place the hall sensors with 120 mechanical degrees on the inside of the motor, does it matter where each Hall sensor should be placed? Can I for instance use this sequence: A H1 a b B C H2 c a A B H3 b c C ? Or is it dependent on the controller type? Is it trial and error then or is there a quick way to determine the right place?

Cheers!

[gwhy!]

Hey guys,

If I use winding sequence AabBCcaABbcC for a 12 teeth/14 pole motor and I want to place the hall sensors with 120 mechanical degrees on the inside of the motor, does it matter where each Hall sensor should be placed? Can I for instance use this sequence: A H1 a b B C H2 c a A B H3 b c C ? Or is it dependent on the controller type? Is it trial and error then or is there a quick way to determine the right place?

Cheers!

Hi Fabbe,
If you space your sensors 120 degrees in the slots ( hall 1 in any slot, miss 3, hall 2, miss 3, hall 3 ) this will give you 120degree spacing and then its trial and error to find the sequence, but it isnt really that bad to work out, keep phase wires in one position and change hall sequence until the motor runs well, if the motor is running the wrong direction then swap phase wires until it runs the opposite direction. When testing for the correct sequence very high currents can flow if not correct so only tickle the throt to test.

[odedelen]

Hi Guys,

I would also like to Add Hall sensors to my AXI 5325/18 ( http://www.modelmotors.cz/index.php?pag ... &line=GOLD )
Nieles, I see that you mounted 3 Hall sensors spaced at about 1 centimeter from each other (which is not 120 degrees between each sensor).
What does it mean when saying you mount the sensors at 120 or 60 degrees? Is it 120 degrees between each sensor? When 60 degrees, should 6 Hall sensors be mounted spaced at 60 degrees ?
How far from the can should the sensors be mounted? is there an ideal distance from the can?

Any answers or additional images would be greatly appreciated !

Thanks

[gwhy!]

Hi Guys,

I would also like to Add Hall sensors to my AXI 5325/18 ( http://www.modelmotors.cz/index.php?pag ... &line=GOLD )
Nieles, I see that you mounted 3 Hall sensors spaced at about 1 centimeter from each other (which is not 120 degrees between each sensor).
What does it mean when saying you mount the sensors at 120 or 60 degrees? Is it 120 degrees between each sensor? When 60 degrees, should 6 Hall sensors be mounted spaced at 60 degrees ?
How far from the can should the sensors be mounted? is there an ideal distance from the can?

Any answers or additional images would be greatly appreciated !

Thanks

Assuming the this motor has 14 magnets, the spacing on the outside of the motor is 17.14 degrees between sensors ( this mimics 120 degrees spacing for the controller benefit ). My sensors are around 2-3mm away from the can . Hope this helps.

[Whiplash]

Will this setup work with any hub motor controller? Just curious if controllers like Lyen's controller will work with these??

By the way I just read through all this stuff and I feel like I at least have a basic understanding of how it works, so THANKS! I think I might be able to do this after all! LOL! I am considering ordering my first motor to play with soon!


ONE MORE QUESTION. How are you finding this, 17.1* spacing? Are you putting a degree wheel on the motor or something? Is there a tool I need?

[mani9876]

Hello!

Can someone say me, how I know the distance between 2 of the hall sensors for my motor ( Turnigy C8085 170kv )

Thanks

ATB,
Manuel

[nieles]

i made this drawing for a forum memeber, so i will post it here also.

Hello!

Can someone say me, how I know the distance between 2 of the hall sensors for my motor ( Turnigy C8085 170kv )

Thanks

ATB,
Manuel

the distance between 2 sensors is 17.14 degrees with my setup (posted earlier)

[Jeremy Harris]

Will this setup work with any hub motor controller? Just curious if controllers like Lyen's controller will work with these??

By the way I just read through all this stuff and I feel like I at least have a basic understanding of how it works, so THANKS! I think I might be able to do this after all! LOL! I am considering ordering my first motor to play with soon!


ONE MORE QUESTION. How are you finding this, 17.1* spacing? Are you putting a degree wheel on the motor or something? Is there a tool I need?

Lyens controllers are just ordinary Infineon controllers, like those sold by Keywin, so the answer is yes, they will work. I've run several different types of outrunner from Infineon controllers, using home brew Hall sensors fitted to the motor.

If you don't want to figure out the 17.1 deg spacing, just go with three Halls spaced at 120 degrees, they will work fine with any 12 slot, 14 magnet outrunner.

Jeremy

[gwhy!]

i made this drawing for a forum memeber, so i will post it here also.

Hello!

Can someone say me, how I know the distance between 2 of the hall sensors for my motor ( Turnigy C8085 170kv )

Thanks

ATB,
Manuel

the distance between 2 sensors is 17.14 degrees with my setup (posted earlier)

And heres another drawing of the spacing i posted in another thread for 80mm cans and 64mm cans. Spose it makes more sense to be posted in this thread

17.14deg.cad.pdf

(15.46 KiB) Downloaded 249 times

[mwkeefer]

Jeremy - gwhy,

Is there some advantage with specific models of motors for different hall spacing, as in better performance, lower no load current, etc?

Just wondering if KISS still applies and putting sensors @ 120 degrees around the casing doesn't make more sense?

Sorry for being ignorant, I've actually modded a few outrunners now but I just counted off the slots and guesstimated 120 degree placement then tuned for lowest no load current....

Thanks in advance!

-Mike

[Whiplash]

OK guys, I guess I didn't make the question clear, how do I actually determine the degrees on the motor? Do you use a degree wheel mounted on the shaft, or do you just use a protractor and more or less guess at the correct alignment? It can be quite hard to figure degrees on a round object without a degree wheel or something...

[gwhy!]

OK guys, I guess I didn't make the question clear, how do I actually determine the degrees on the motor? Do you use a degree wheel mounted on the shaft, or do you just use a protractor and more or less guess at the correct alignment? It can be quite hard to figure degrees on a round object without a degree wheel or something...

Hi Whiplash,
How I done it was to draw a circle of the dia of the motor then divide the circle up Just like in the drawing in my previous post. There are no alignment issues because when the halls are mounted ( they are not fixed to the motor but to the mounting plate) they can be adjusted to give the correct alignment.

[gwhy!]

Jeremy - gwhy,

Is there some advantage with specific models of motors for different hall spacing, as in better performance, lower no load current, etc?

Just wondering if KISS still applies and putting sensors @ 120 degrees around the casing doesn't make more sense?

Sorry for being ignorant, I've actually modded a few outrunners now but I just counted off the slots and guesstimated 120 degree placement then tuned for lowest no load current....

Thanks in advance!

-Mike

Hi Mike,
I have only played with 3 makes ( models ) of motor with all sorts of spacing configs but they all performed the same so I cant really say for sure if there will be any advantage of using true 120 degree spacing on other motors but I wouldn't have thought It will make any difference, The only thing I would say is that if using 17.1 degrees and guesstimating the placement would need to be far more accurate than using 120 degrees spacing and guesstimating.

[mwkeefer]

I suppose this is easy enough to fab up a ring or semi ring to retain the halls at the electrical 120 degree on a single phase, can you see 23 pole hub motors with 120 physical mounted hall sensors? LOL

Thanks!

-Mike

[Whiplash]

OK guys, I guess I didn't make the question clear, how do I actually determine the degrees on the motor? Do you use a degree wheel mounted on the shaft, or do you just use a protractor and more or less guess at the correct alignment? It can be quite hard to figure degrees on a round object without a degree wheel or something...

Hi Whiplash,
How I done it was to draw a circle of the dia of the motor then divide the circle up Just like in the drawing in my previous post. There are no alignment issues because when the halls are mounted ( they are not fixed to the motor but to the mounting plate) they can be adjusted to give the correct alignment.

Ah, OK I see, so its not as detailed as say, degreeing in a camshaft in a ICE, that is what I think of when I hear the term degrees, like it must be within 1/2 a degree of accuracy or something..

[Jeremy Harris]

Jeremy - gwhy,

Is there some advantage with specific models of motors for different hall spacing, as in better performance, lower no load current, etc?

Just wondering if KISS still applies and putting sensors @ 120 degrees around the casing doesn't make more sense?

Sorry for being ignorant, I've actually modded a few outrunners now but I just counted off the slots and guesstimated 120 degree placement then tuned for lowest no load current....

Thanks in advance!

-Mike

I've only used 120 degree spacing, just because its easy to fit Halls internally like this (they just fit in between the stator slots at exactly 120 degrees). I can't see that there is any significant difference between using 120 degree or any other arrangement that gives either 60 degree or 120 degree electrical angle resolution (there are several different configurations of sensors that could give signals that work OK with 60/120 auto detect controllers, like the Infineons).

Jeremy

[liveforphysics]

If I'm not mistaken, the in-the-slots position only works out with correct timing if you are terminated in wye. Delta will always be 30eDeg advanced or retarded of the neutral wye timing.

[mwkeefer]

Luke,

I could be mistaken on this but... isn't the difference a matter of flipping the middle hall to take it 60 degrees out for delta?

I know that inverting the output of the B phase hall via will correct the issue for many controllers but I've never had timing issues flipping delta / wye with infineons and stock 120 degree spacing (experience only on DD hub motors).

-Mike

[liveforphysics]

Luke,

I could be mistaken on this but... isn't the difference a matter of flipping the middle hall to take it 60 degrees out for delta?

I know that inverting the output of the B phase hall via will correct the issue for many controllers but I've never had timing issues flipping delta / wye with infineons and stock 120 degree spacing (experience only on DD hub motors).

-Mike

I'm not certian, and I'm in no condition to rationalize it out at the moment. lol

[mwkeefer]

oh, ping back to my court... why do you think I hit it your way in the first place...

Well as I recall one individual mounted a pair of halls in the center position but inverted one of the sensors (he used a dremel to grind out a bit more area) so it was face up (down, can't remember) but when he flipped to Delta initially he switched to this odd middle hall...

Then quite by accident he discovered that on the infineon controller (EB812 I believe) the no load current was the same no matter if the middle (B phase) hall was inverted or not... apparently the controller adapts automatically...

Dont think it will apply to all controllers... but it should apply to most

-Mike

[Burtie]

Hi Mike,

Yes, I believe you are correct about the infineon controller being able to auto detect a 120 degree or 60 degree hall pattern and work with either.

There is a field in the Parameter Designer software labelled 'PhaseDegree£'. it has options of '120', '60' and 'Compatible' . The Compatible option if the one that enables the auto detect feature.

But, I don't think this feature helps us with the theoretical 30 degree timing shift that is desireable when changing from wye to delta.



In practise the RC outrunners seem to run ok in both delta or wye when we just place the sensors between the stator teeth. But there is of course some room for improvement if the timing can be optimised for each mode.

Burtie.