Adding hall sensors to outrunners

[mdd0127]

When I was messing with my little module on the astro, I got a very similar noise to that and similar high amp readings when I rotated the timing module beyond 15 degrees from where it was running perfectly. Also, when I did this, the direction of the motor reversed. I would try going through your hall/phase combos one more time, just in case, then maybe experiment with moving them back or forward one slot. It's really hard to tell where to put those things sometimes.

I'm also convinced that the placing the halls anywhere near the stator is just asking for magnetic interference/heat issues. I'll have an external sensor module done for the 12mm shaft motors soon so I can confirm that theory then.

[marcexec]

When I was messing with my little module on the astro, I got a very similar noise to that and similar high amp readings when I rotated the timing module beyond 15 degrees from where it was running perfectly. Also, when I did this, the direction of the motor reversed. I would try going through your hall/phase combos one more time, just in case, then maybe experiment with moving them back or forward one slot. It's really hard to tell where to put those things sometimes.

Thanks, I will try that.

I'm also convinced that the placing the halls anywhere near the stator is just asking for magnetic interference/heat issues. I'll have an external sensor module done for the 12mm shaft motors soon so I can confirm that theory then.

We will see about that - I will keep you guys posted.

[Ludo91]

guys I`m pretty in trouble placing my halls.

I have them with 17.15 degree spacing, but were relatively to the stator should I place them?

Should the "middle hall" or one of the two side halls match one of the "openings in the stator"? (I dont`k now the english name of the 12 "free spaces" between the 12 stator heads)

[gwhy!]

Put the middle hall more or less in-line with a slot, this should give you a starting point at least.

[modern_messiah]

Do all the principles for adding hall sensors to out-runners apply to in-runners? I can't see why they would differ if they did. I'd imagine that your sensor placement would be trickier because it would be harder to place the sensors on the "back" of the rotor can. Anything else I'd need to watch out for?

[marcexec]

When I was messing with my little module on the astro, I got a very similar noise to that and similar high amp readings when I rotated the timing module beyond 15 degrees from where it was running perfectly. Also, when I did this, the direction of the motor reversed. I would try going through your hall/phase combos one more time, just in case, then maybe experiment with moving them back or forward one slot. It's really hard to tell where to put those things sometimes.

Thanks, I will try that.

I'm also convinced that the placing the halls anywhere near the stator is just asking for magnetic interference/heat issues. I'll have an external sensor module done for the 12mm shaft motors soon so I can confirm that theory then.

We will see about that - I will keep you guys posted.

I made another run with another set of bearings: .
NLC is now 4.8A @~50V on WOT.
good enough?

[gwhy!]

4.8A is what I was getting without the skirt bearing so yes I think its about as good as your gonna get. just for info I was getting around 8A with the skirt bearing !!.

[marcexec]

That's cool, thank you. So I'll glue that in now.
To reverse direction (if I need to) I just swap two phases and the according halls, right?

I might go for Burtie's TA later on to optimize.
For now I'll focus on sth else.

[gwhy!]

That's cool, thank you. So I'll glue that in now.
To reverse direction (if I need to) I just swap two phases and the according halls, right?

I might go for Burtie's TA later on to optimize.
For now I'll focus on sth else.

yes, if your halls are 120degrees apart then you only need to swap the phase wires but you will have to swap the hall wires also if they are not 120degrees apart or you can re-adjust the halls to bring it back in to correct timing ( you can also just about get away without swapping the hall wires at 60degree spacing ). As you have glued them in the motor then Im guessing they are 120 apart so you should be fine just swapping 2 of the phase wires.

[marcexec]

That's cool, thank you. So I'll glue that in now.
To reverse direction (if I need to) I just swap two phases and the according halls, right?

I might go for Burtie's TA later on to optimize.
For now I'll focus on sth else.

yes, if your halls are 120degrees apart then you only need to swap the phase wires but you will have to swap the hall wires also if they are not 120degrees apart or you can re-adjust the halls to bring it back in to correct timing ( you can also just about get away without swapping the hall wires at 60degree spacing ). As you have glued them in the motor then Im guessing they are 120 apart so you should be fine just swapping 2 of the phase wires.

Just realized the sound was missing:
And yes - I got those saggy LAs for free, only 12.1V @5A - should be ~1C I guess.

[benediktsamuel]

hey guys,

I am really in trouble. I´m building a Mountainboard with 2 Brushless Outrunners. I have glued the sensors in . 1 Works fine. The Second dont . i also tried every 6 different combinations

- hall1 hall2 hall3
- hall1 hall3 hall2
- hall2 hall1 hall3
- hall2 hall3 hall1
- hall3 hall1 hall2
- hall3 hall2 hall1

one of the Motors is working fine but the other one isnt working yet. what is wrong? did I forgot something?

is there anything i have to put between the halls and the controller?

here is a Picture how i glued them in.






please help me...

[marcexec]

What's your no load current on the "working" motor?
my sensors are glued in between the stators, not behind them.

[benediktsamuel]

My nonloadcurrent is about 2 or 3 a ... not more than without sensors.. problem is that there isnt enough sp space in the slot ...because its only a c6364

[gwhy!]

Some thoughts:
I have reverted back to 60degree m spacing and flipped the middle sensor ( I was using 17.14 ) for my external hall setup, the reason for this is it is far more predicable and less critical to the distance that the sensors are away from the can of the motor . I also been playing around with internal hall placement @ 120d m spacing and I think I have worked out why its important which slots that the halls need to be place into to get reliable running, if a hall is in between a tooth that gets energized at very hi load current ( less effected with low load ) then this slightly pulls/pushes the switching/release point for that sensor.

[amberwolf]

I wish I had remembered this thread existed before embarking on my latest motor project...but now that I've re-found it...

I need to re-read this entire thread again (just finished reading it the first time now), but while I do that, and try to actually absorb some of the information that seems to be bouncing off right now, perhaps some input on my "project":

I've got a huge (20lbs+) brushless powerchair motor that's about the same size stator as something like the X5 series, I think, but it's wound to directly drive a small powerchair wheel (14", I think) at either 4 or 8MPH at 24V (really 28V, two SLA in series).

Built in it has SIN/COS analog sensor output...which is useless (without translation hardware) for ebike controllers (which is what I have avaialble to drive it). I added digital hall sensors at 120 degree physical intervals, gluing them temporarily with just superglue to hand-carved recesses in the material covering the windings between stator teeth.

It's a 45-tooth, 40-magnet, Wye-terminated motor. Presumably it is 15 poles? No idea on number of turns/etc, or inductance (yet, I have a plan to test that later once I find my signal generator).

Presently, the no-load full-throttle current at 40V is about 1.6A, and at 56V is about 1.7A.

There are pics and videos and further data in it's thread over here:
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32838
if needed, or at request I can repost them over here in this thread.


What I would like to find out is what the optimum placement of sensors might be (for timing and high-load situations), if not where I already have them.

At present, there is definite clicking (of changing fields, not mechanical) at each part of a rotation equal to magnet passing stator tooth (or more than one tooth). That might simply be how it works with an ebike controller using trapezoidal commutation, and it might be smoother with a sine controller (but I don't have one). But if it can be made better by simple hall repositioning, I'm up for trying that, if anyone has a fairly certain idea of what might work better. I can't reposition them much, or I'll break the leads off (already did this to one and barely fixed it), and I have no spares except what is in other motors.

What I had planned was to install them on a ring on the outside of the mtor, but there isn't enough flux leakage for them to pick up, so they had to go inside on the stator.


There *is* another magnetic encoder source, which is the ring used for the analog SIN/COS output. I could probably mount them inside there where they can detect the domains on the ring, but I dont' yet know how many there are; if it's less than the number of magnets on the rotor, I'm not sure how things would work with an ebike controller.

[mdd0127]

Don't work too hard on the physical positioning of them. We're going to be posting up down in Phoenix at least for a few weeks and I have one of burtie's timing modules that's yours as soon as I find it! We're heading down there today and will probably like to get settled today but maybe tomorrow I can bring it by.

[amberwolf]

That would be very interesting and useful to have around for experimentation! I could even use it to find the right advance or retard, and then physically position them for the best neutral efficiency. Now I'll ahve to go read that thread, too.

PM'd with time/etc. details.

[whereswally606]

Just managed to get a 80/100 working with my 48v golden motor controller. This is my first video upload to the sphere and also to youtube.

The motor is from Leaderhobby and is the EMP not turnigy.

this took me most of the day to cobble together but pretty much struck lucky with the hall wire combinations hit a good combo on the second try.



http://youtu.be/XDeOv5POAxg

hope to get it on my norco savage soon, currently looking into double freewheel acs southpaw system.

[Thud]

wow,
#1 are the sensor placed on the board (on the plane that the motor face is on) the ones your using for motor controll?
I have had them work for astoundingly far away...but never that out of line with the magnets themselves.

My best results were always right above the magnets & suspended off the flux can by 2-5mm's. Also I have never been able to make any consistant power with the external Halls at 17.14 deg spacings. Internal placemt at 120degs is proving dead reliable though.

Gwhy has me thinking about trying true 60deg spacings again on the 80mm motors.

good luck on your set up & keep us posted on your findings.

[gwhy!]

Thud,
If you want to keep the 120d timing for consistency (to work with any 120d timing controller ) then the halls needs to be 68.6degrees m this spacing requires all 3 halls facing the same way, if you space at 60d m then the middle hall will need to be flipped.

Just managed to get a 80/100 working with my 48v golden motor controller. This is my first video upload to the sphere and also to youtube.

The motor is from Leaderhobby and is the EMP not turnigy.

this took me most of the day to cobble together but pretty much struck lucky with the hall wire combinations hit a good combo on the second try.

hope to get it on my norco savage soon, currently looking into double freewheel acs southpaw system.

Those halls are along way from the mags !, you may have some problems once you start putting a load onto the motor but it will be very intresting to see how it goes.

[sico]

I'm pretty sure that particular golden controller has a default sensorless mode that's supposed to take over if a hall fails. Not saying that's what's happening here, but seems possible.

Simon.

[whereswally606]

yeah i agree the halls are a long way from the motor but i know that its running sensored cause i wasnt lucky enough to have it work with my first wiring combination only the second, which is still pretty damn lucky, as ive probo mentioned spacing is 17.14 degrees and is pretty accurate measured on a printed paper template using a math geometry program called geogebra. Not sure about putting the motor under load yet. One thing i want to do first is mod one of my hua tong 72v controllers back to a 44v lvc so that i can risk that controller for a biscuit. The GM controller cost £60 pound delivered and fits in my custom mount for the scott ransom which is my only consistently road fit bike so good to keep one bike rideable, hua tongs cost about £20 when i bought them a while back so i splashed for 2. Waiting on a big 3s lipo delivery from hobbyking and feel my progress is gonna start making leaps bounds soon. Ive spent so long now reading and gathering parts to create 3 equally amazing bikes. really want some of methods hvc lvc boards but to run 3s i think means making odd 3s to 6s jst connectors.

when i get the other controllers pushing this thing (they are much more robust) i will put the motor under some load (not sure how yet) anyway i will keep you posted, thanks for being the trailblazers. oh and merry christmas.

[sico]

Would love some advice on my hall related problem:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=34743&start=15

Thanks,

Simon

[gwhy!]

I am making some revised external hall sensors modules for myself , initially these will be for the smaller outrunners 63mm dia. These will be set in cast resin ( so no problems with damp ) also the hall sensor is not the usual ss411a, the spacing will not be 17.14 so it will be a little longer going round the motor but it will not be so high, The spacing and hall combo on these new sensors is a vast improvement on the previous hall sensors. As I will be making a fair few for myself I am just putting it out there should anyone else want them please PM me if interested. There will also be a hall module for the 80mm dia motors but i need to finish testing before I finalize the spec.

[gwhy!]

pics of the re-vamped 63mm hall sensor :

63mm hall sensor_blank.jpg (79.81 KiB) Viewed 1210 times

63mm hall sensor_blank_motor.jpg (94.28 KiB) Viewed 1210 times