Falco hub motor technology

Miles

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http://falcoemotors.com/Falco_hub_motor_technology.html

The developers of the Falco motors:
http://www.strategictechgroup.com/aboutus.html

Patents:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=2010195286A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=20100805&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=WO&NR=2005027335A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=20050324&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=WO&NR=2006102609A2&KC=A2&FT=D&date=20060928&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP
 
http://ieee.rackoneup.net/rrvs/08/Seven%20Phase%20Brushless%20Synchronous%20Motor%20with%20Reduced%20Inverter%20Size.pdf

http://ieee.rackoneup.net/rrvs/08/rrvs9-08.pdf
 
Do you think they went to 5 instead of 6 phase just so people would be forced to use their proprietary controller?

I'd be more than happy to try a Falco hubbie, but not at Team Hybrid's typical pricing.
 
Wavecrest was seven.. (from the linked PDF)

"This paper has also highlighted the fact that the inverter
electronics are inherently smaller for this kind of motor as
compared to 3-phase PM brush-less motors. Future work is
continuing that would focus on the further reduction of
electronics by PWM frequency stagger technique in order to
reduce capacitors ripple contents further."


Other pending patent applications
 
Hmm... how can this motor really be better in every possible way?

Are 5 phase motors really this good.. anyone know?
 
question to Team Hybrid:
can this motor /controller be powered on 3-party battery, I don`t want to use your wireless interface display for added cost.
For kit no doubt expensive /Swiss-made, anyway Europe-made/ you must think what about after say 7-8 seasons of full blown riding if only propetary battery can be used.
I would expect on kit so expensive they use 2000-3000 cycles battery.
Anybody any more info?
CM
 
More phases generally only improves a motor at the cost of higher controller and wiring complexity.

If you have the ability to make a many-phase controller, and a wiring solution to get all the wires out of the axle etc, going more phases improves all attributes, and the lower the RPM of the motor, the more it would help.
 
liveforphysics said:
More phases generally only improves a motor at the cost of higher controller and wiring complexity.

If you have the ability to make a many-phase controller, and a wiring solution to get all the wires out of the axle etc, going more phases improves all attributes, and the lower the RPM of the motor, the more it would help.

But the wires don't come out of the axle. The controller is internal.
 
Gordo said:
But the wires don't come out of the axle. The controller is internal.
Sounds like another Bionx, with the problems and lack of ability to pump out more power that come with that type of design.

Methinks we need some 5 phase motors that will work with a standardized type of controller, like a 5 phase infineon or something. Wonder why nobody has done it already.
 
Eh? more phases = better?
I'd say less phases is better. Just for simplicity.
You can't use one phase because it won't start & has lumpy torque.
2 phases is great - but you need 3 wires anyway & then one has 41% more current in it. Or 4 wires.
So the simplest symmetric practical AC motor system is 3 phase. Blow me - that's what everyone uses - what a shock!
With the benefit of not even looking at the links above - I am predisposed to be sceptical of anything they say ;^)
 
I had enough trouble trying to get 5 hall wires through the 9C axle with 12 Awg phase wires....sod 5 phase wire arrangements. Internal controllers like the Magic Pie ones just do not work for anything above the minimum...overheating.

Maybe these guys solved it, would be good for someone to test....if they have the money.
 
neptronix said:
Gordo said:
But the wires don't come out of the axle. The controller is internal.
Sounds like another Bionx, with the problems and lack of ability to pump out more power that come with that type of design.

Methinks we need some 5 phase motors that will work with a standardized type of controller, like a 5 phase infineon or something. Wonder why nobody has done it already.


There are a few heavy electric scooters with 6 phase motors and controllers.
bobc said:
Eh? more phases = better?
I'd say less phases is better. Just for simplicity.
You can't use one phase because it won't start & has lumpy torque.
2 phases is great - but you need 3 wires anyway & then one has 41% more current in it. Or 4 wires.
So the simplest symmetric practical AC motor system is 3 phase. Blow me - that's what everyone uses - what a shock!
With the benefit of not even looking at the links above - I am predisposed to be sceptical of anything they say ;^)


I don't know how they did the layout for 5 phase, but with 3 phase, you always have a compromise in the way the phases are terminated (delta or wye). A 6-phase design does not have this compromise.

You will notice when budget it thrown out the window, and only ultimate performance as a system matters, most motors are no 3-phase. Things like locomotive traction motors, ship motors, navy submarine motors, etc are all a minimum of 9 phase, and some 21 phase or higher.
 
OK I had a look at the 2nd patent - it's actually a 7 phase motor (!!!) internally connected allowing them to drive it from a 4 phase inverter (4 wires to the motor).
Actually looks very interesting! A 4 phase inverter is a reasonably convenient thing (2 x H bridges) & I guess there has to be some mileage to be gained by reducing the 120degrees of "off" time for each phase in a 3 phase BLDC. Unfortunately you can't make one like it by rewinding a DLRK stator because you'd need N*7 stator slots...
 
Fisher & Paykel washing-machine motors (100's of thousands sold worldwide) are 7-phase. I don't know the benefits/drawbacks, but its apparently not some type of unknown voodoo to E-engineers.

I've got a link and pics somewhere of an E-bike motor with an over-sized bearing on one side and a C-shaped bushing inbetween the axle and bearing where the open slot in the "C" shape of the non-rotating bushing allows fat wire bundles to exit the hub-motor sideplate without using the hollow shaft. I can only hope that someday that will be the next 9C upgrade...
 
These guys are not dim.

The interesting question is: why five? Seven was working pretty well in the TF.

These folks prolly have good reasons (and cost-reduction is not likely).
 
Some points from the PDF;

"Power Electronics: This module mainly consists of analog
and switching components such as MOSFETs, MOSFET
gate drivers, current and voltage sensors, current and
voltage snubbers and auxiliary protection circuitry. One of
the major advantages of the 7-phase motor is the fact that
the current is reduced substantially in the motor windings.
This benefits the inverter size two ways – first, it allows us
to use inexpensive MOSFETs and secondly, it substantially
reduces the high frequency ripple current in the bus
capacitors. Bus capacitors are a major contributor to the
overall volume of these drives. Therefore 7-phase motor
topology results in substantial increase in the overall
efficiency and substantial decrease in the overall size of the
inverter electronics as compared to 3-phase inverter drives."

"This paper has also highlighted the fact that the inverter
electronics are inherently smaller for this kind of motor as
compared to 3-phase PM brush-less motors. Future work is
continuing that would focus on the further reduction of
electronics by PWM frequency stagger technique in order to
reduce capacitors ripple contents further."

Is the 3 phase system just a hangover from conventional AC power distribution?
 
The guy with his DIY axial flux motor runs a motorcycle with it using something like 6 cheapie RC sensorless controllers on 18 phases. It may be overkill, but maybe not by much using those controllers, so he ends up with nice smooth startup.

Maybe there's a clue about why 5 phase in the much lower cogging.

What's the Europe made thing anyway? Aren't the lead guys from India? Get them made there and cheap. People need to get off of this idea that electric bikes should be expensive.
 
Gordo said:
Some points from the PDF;

"Power Electronics: This module mainly consists of analog
and switching components such as MOSFETs, MOSFET
gate drivers, current and voltage sensors, current and
voltage snubbers and auxiliary protection circuitry. One of
the major advantages of the 7-phase motor is the fact that
the current is reduced substantially in the motor windings.
This benefits the inverter size two ways – first, it allows us
to use inexpensive MOSFETs and secondly, it substantially
reduces the high frequency ripple current in the bus
capacitors. Bus capacitors are a major contributor to the
overall volume of these drives. Therefore 7-phase motor
topology results in substantial increase in the overall
efficiency and substantial decrease in the overall size of the
inverter electronics as compared to 3-phase inverter drives."

"This paper has also highlighted the fact that the inverter
electronics are inherently smaller for this kind of motor as
compared to 3-phase PM brush-less motors. Future work is
continuing that would focus on the further reduction of
electronics by PWM frequency stagger technique in order to
reduce capacitors ripple contents further."

Is the 3 phase system just a hangover from conventional AC power distribution?




This is all true.
It all makes sense.
It all sounds good to me.
 
John in CR said:
What's the Europe made thing anyway? Aren't the lead guys from India? Get them made there and cheap. People need to get off of this idea that electric bikes should be expensive.

Don't act like you wouldn't want a $2000 hub motor, hand crafted in the swiss alps.. :lol:
 
If I understand correctly then, going to six, twelve, 15 or 18 phases by using multiple 3 phase controllers is not giving a motor torque increase over a single powerful 3phase controller, because it still only fires 2/3 of the coils at a time, however it does make it possible to run big motor on weak controllers.
However 5 phase can run 4 phases all the time so I^2 losses decrease.
Is that right?

It still puzzles me how that works out with the 'neutral' spots in the pole arrangement. with only 3 phases, the active coils can always be close to the maximum PM flux. Uhh..?
 
Although I believe all their claims are true, they are painting their story in a very optimistic way, which is probably the only way they are going to get any attention. Would anybody buy their wares if they said, we have 5 phases, and can get the same performance as the other guys.

We already know that you can build a high efficiency three phase hub motor (i.e CSIRO), and a high efficiency light-weight three phase motor controller (tritium Wavesculptor 22, around 900g, 99.2% efficiency 20kVa http://www.tritium.com.au/products/TRI88/index.html).

Their claims about increased torque for the size is shit. You can easily calculate the theoretical power of a motor based on the airgap flux density and airgap surface area and other things, it does not depend on the number of phases. They may have something there with decreased loading on the controller components, but the benefit there is minimal.

Their high torque motor appears to be larger diameter than its competition which has lower efficiency. Torque increases with the square of rotor diameter, so increasing daimeter makes it easy to reduce weight while maintaining the same torque. Then there is the advantage of increased diameter also increases the surface area for cooling. In general bigger diameter = better, it doesn't take a long time before that is clear, until RPM becomes the limitation (diameter is limited for high speed applications due to forces involved).

If you look at typical RC motors with 12/10, or 12/14 stator slots / magnet pole ratio, you are actually running 6 phase motors that are being forced into a 3 phase system, and it turns out that is not really that bad. You reduce the cogging torque (not that it really matters for aircraft anyways) and maintain the ability to use a simple 3 phase controller from whatever source you want.

If I were a bike maker, I wouldn't want a 5 phase motor, simply because you would only have a one-source supplier. It might be pretty easy to develop your own 5 phase controller, but If you are into that, you might as well build your own motor which is better suited for your particular application aswell.

I am crazy busy right now so I don't have time to read through their patents, If I get a chance I'll go through them and let you all know if they actually have anything.
 
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