New e-motor company: opinions needed

[Doctor]

HI guys,
Recently I've been asked by my good friend whether I'd like to join his start up company, which has developed new electric motor technology. What they have right now is aircooled 8.4 lbs motor, with 80 Nm peak torque and 19 kW peak power at 48V (if I recall the voltage correctly). The efficiency curve is essentially flat, over 88-90% almost across the entire range of operation. They think to finish the tests in the near future, and may start selling it as a beta prototype with target retail price of $1990 or close to it, with 6-12 months warranty. These guys are EV enthusiasts and want to make this technology available to other enthusiasts even before they offer it to businesses.
I am not sure whether this venture will work out: I see too much of competition and not very sure whether there is a big market even for the first beta prototype.
Any opinions? How many of you would spend money to buy such motor? Does anybody know how big is potential market for such motor? I have a feeling like they should have made a smaller motor for bicycles rather than this sucker, but again, I am not sure. Is motor performance important for you? Would you prefer cheaper Etek over such pricier performance motor?
Thanks.

[Bluefang]

The motor sounds great for motorbikes etc and i am sure it would be used alot......if it comes with a controller that is built to run the motor. We seem to have a few of massive motors 20kw+ etc that are great except there are almost no controllers that can run them from a dead stop at a good power level with out been blown up.

Have a read thru the Colossus motor threads if your interested in it and the motor inductance thread in the motor forums. 18kw people would still buy to put on push bikes, there are some very crazy people arround.

[deVries]

HI guys,
Recently I've been asked by my good friend whether I'd like to join his start up company, which has developed new electric motor technology. What they have right now is aircooled 8.4 lbs motor, with 80 Nm peak torque and 19 kW peak power at 48V (if I recall the voltage correctly). The efficiency curve is essentially flat, over 88-90% almost across the entire range of operation. They think to finish the tests in the near future, and may start selling it as a beta prototype with target retail price of $1990 or close to it, with 6-12 months warranty. These guys are EV enthusiasts and want to make this technology available to other enthusiasts even before they offer it to businesses.
I am not sure whether this venture will work out: I see too much of competition and not very sure whether there is a big market even for the first beta prototype.
Any opinions? How many of you would spend money to buy such motor? Does anybody know how big is potential market for such motor? I have a feeling like they should have made a smaller motor for bicycles rather than this sucker, but again, I am not sure. Is motor performance important for you? Would you prefer cheaper Etek over such pricier performance motor?
Thanks.

Where is the motor manufactured?

The controller will have to be matched to the motor, so we would want a lot of controller & performance data 1st.

Target price seems high unless this will be a kick ass motor for a motorcycle class bike. Would need the performance specs with example bikes before we could really give an informed opinion.

8.4 lbs motor seems like it's going to need a lot of active cooling features, since it's obviously not a heavy DD motor that can absorb heat. This motor will have to dissipate the heat with active cooling in some format when you're talking about 19kW peak.

Also, what is it going to do spec-wise in its nominal operating range & modes? Right now, you're offering pie-in-the-sky with such limited information. Sorry for being a bit snarky or jaded. All my *opinion*. *IMO*

Pics, video, and lots of data about the controller & motor with example setups, 1st, please!

We seem to have a few of massive motors 20kw+ etc that are great except there are almost no controllers that can run them from a dead stop at a good power level with out been blown up.

+++++ ... EXACTLY.

Offer the first 50-100 motors for the first 50-100 customers for no more than $1200.00 dollars including the controller too, so you can get some honest and/or real world feedback from this "beta test" group. Give 1st priority of 1/2 those motor numbers to experienced or "2nd build" DIY builders, if possible. IMO.

[Doctor]

Thanks for the replys, guys.
I am not trying to offer anything. My problem is to understand how viable this type of product before I leave a nice but boring job and jump into a risky venture.
The motor is made in US, runs on Sevcon gen 4. As far as I understood it has 12 kW, over 50 Nm continuous,and these guys have an IP on both cooling and magnetic design, which improves the efficiency greatly over almost entire working range.
I've heard from them that they can achieve power/weight ratio of over 10 kW/kg. Given its weight and dimensions (I think around 5.5" dia by 2.8, if I recall it correclty) it looks to me pretty awesome, especially in comparison with Agni, Etek or Kostov.
The problem that I see with other motors is relatively low preformance and heavy weight. UQM or EVo-Electric type motors look good to me, but way too expensive and nobody makes anything similar for bikes/motorcycles.
I am trying to understand if such motor technology solves issues of weight, performance and cost to average Joe of endless-sphere. If so, I'd probably be all in with this company.
Gonna post any data/pics if these guys provide me with any.
Thanks!

[Miles]

13Nm/kg is pretty impressive for an air cooled motor.......

If they have IP, then we should be able to see the patents?

[Njay]

Bring Agni's performance-weight closer to Motenergy price. That would be a killer.

[Biff]

If this company truly has their IP buttoned up and it is unique, they should consider licensing the IP to motor companies. If the technology is worth anything it would give them the best return, and it would be the fastest way to get their product to the people.

We don't need a new motor manufacturer, we need our current manufacturers, who know how to make motors and have the ability to make 1000's of motors per day, to make better motors.

10kW/kg for an air cooled motor seems pretty optimistic to me. Getting 2kW/kg is hard enough. If the motor truly has that capability, the technology would sell itself.

-ryan

[mdd0127]

We really do need a new motor company. We need one that has exceptional customer service and can, quickly and reliably, produce quality motors, of varying sizes, in a large enough economy of scale to make the pricing reasonable to enthusiasts, inventors, and start up companies. We don't need any more suppliers with difficult to obtain, over priced, under supported products that are advertised to do more than they can actually RELIABLY do.

[Biff]

Bring Agni's performance-weight closer to Motenergy price. That would be a killer.

The Motenergy motor in the 2012 Zero S/DS is pretty much that, it weighs a little more but has a bit better performance than the Agni. It shouldn't be too long before those become available through resellers.

[flathill]

Is this a flux switching motor? Have you solved the noise and torque ripple issues?

[deVries]

We really do need a new motor company. We need one that has exceptional customer service and can, quickly and reliably, produce quality motors, of varying sizes, in a large enough economy of scale to make the pricing reasonable to enthusiasts, inventors, and start up companies. We don't need any more suppliers with difficult to obtain, over priced, under supported products that are advertised to do more than they can actually RELIABLY do.

+1

I would add we need the manufacturer based in the USA, since Germany & China already have their engineering "standards" with their respective advantages & disadvantages too.

I would pay a 50% price premium, at least, for a real made in the USA product sans (*not*) Boeing BS of parting worldwide for political power/influence & just assembling here... so bogus.

Why not do something heroic in your life if you believe in this IP motor-tech & "your team", because you could just try it and maybe succeed. You will never know otherwise, but learning from failure, if that happens, is lessons learned for success in the future. Starting any small business *IS* high risk... throwing big money & inventing the market will "BigFail" (to use an infamous ES word. ) ... start small, grow gradually with decades in mind...

I say go for it especially if you have not taken a big risk in life to make something happen!

Btw, Biff is supposed to be one of the resident high-ranking motor experts, so you might want to PM Biff about some more details. But posting the motor/controller specs that address the cooling and performance issues too will be essential to really offer you any informed opinions! Wishing you the best of luck...

[Doctor]

Unfortunately I don't have more tech details right now-haven't even signed an NDA with them.
Yes, I guess the IP should be available online, unless it is pending. Probably need to ask for more details about it-will post on it later on.
I personally would like to see a quality product, I mean a real quality. Hope that this is the case.
deVries, you are right, but to me risk must be a reasonable. Is that the case here? Well, I am trying to figure it out. On other hand it is so hard to dive into something beyond the regular and boring 8AM-5PM routine...
Thanks!

[miro13car]

And you should get financial help from government
If you ask
I second - I will pay 50% more also for American made motor.
I wish you all good luck!

[iti_uk]

Make it liquid cooled and I'd be interested...

[strantor]

I would try to find out where the company is going, what their future plans are.. The motor you describe is a pretty niche item IMO - Too small for a car, and too big for a sane person's e-bike.; I suspect that the majority of the people in America who would be interested in it are already on this forum, so you're talking to your niche audience and of course they're going to tell you to go for it. Do they have plans to scale it up? Make an EV-sized motor with the same technology? That's where I suspect that the money is, but also where all the competition is. Super hard for a little guy to muscle his way into line with the big dogs. So it's a double edged sword. Tough call, glad it's your call and not mine.

[bigmoose]

Seriously check their IP protection. There should be no problem with them giving patent numbers to you. It would be considered reasonable due diligence. It is something I would do if I were considering involvement/employment with them. When you snag the patents, share them here and I am sure we will all chime in and you will get an unbiased assessment.

The size and power of that motor makes for a UAV power plant. If the company does not currently know about the right ways into that community they have missed their prime high $ market. I would question why they don't know if that is the case.

This type of motor serves two widely different product lines. One high reliability, with a paper trail required and subsequently high cost/price. It is good if a variant of the product can be marketed to the consumer market.

If they don't have patents issued I would be careful. BTW, if you can say, what would be your new role in the company?

[mdd0127]

Screw UAV's. Make awesome motors for bikes and cars.....you know, things that actually enhance people's lives. We have enough easily abusable weaponry.

[parabellum]

Doctor, aren't you speaking about this company? Found link in your other post http://www.apexdrivelabs.com/pdf/Apex_E ... t_2008.pdf
There are IP s, specs and everything superficially mentioned.

[dickselectrictoys]

the trick is where to get the parts that come from china and unless u r from there or know someone there.......ur taking a big chance, cause what u gonna do if ur 20,000 orders do not arrive, or the wrong ones. u need someone based there which will cost u in the long run...especialy if u donot sell any of the $1000 units. trial & error involves riding the ones u can get. i started buying used and rebuilding them.(finding parts??) good luck." if u got a machine shop, ur in luck/electronics/mechanical ingineering/voltage flow induction/.........i praise ur ontrapaturability.