93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

[John in CR]

It came to me today where all that rust came from on the hacked for mid-drive motor. I was cooling it with water frequently while I was doing my angle grinder, hacksaw, file crude lathe work....didn't want to cook the magnets before every using the motor. Water on hot freshly cut steel gets some surface rust almost immediately, so keep that in mind you mid-drive guys.

John

[teklektik]

Easy. ... It was $12.51 online the first place I looked. Keep in mind this isn't the quick to wear out bicycle stuff you're probably accustomed to using.

Thanks - no doubt about the expected long life, but it's a consumable part, so it's just something that needs to get asked ....

[John in CR]

Easy. ... It was $12.51 online the first place I looked. Keep in mind this isn't the quick to wear out bicycle stuff you're probably accustomed to using.

Thanks - no doubt about the expected long life, but it's a consumable part, so it's just something that needs to get asked ....

True, and I'm glad you asked. I hadn't tried checking for the part before, and it's nice to know that it's cool runnins.

John

[Kin]

bah, this is such a curious development. Making me second guess my long term project [maybe not too long term, but cad-form for now] involving an Etek (clone- "mantra") motor. Is this the only thread to wait for conversation about how to manage slightly higher above-rating power usage? Just still polling for more information.

[John in CR]

bah, this is such a curious development. Making me second guess my long term project [maybe not too long term, but cad-form for now] involving an Etek (clone- "mantra") motor. Is this the only thread to wait for conversation about how to manage slightly higher above-rating power usage? Just still polling for more information.

What power are you looking for? My plan has been to run the one I modded for mid-drive for a while in stock form, sealed and no changes to the interior. Plans can change, so it wouldn't take much of a push for me to ventilate this one and see how it handles 8-10kw peak with some fresh air flowing through. With the switch side (bell side, right side) axle already shortened getting the stator out is going to be interesting to say the least, since there's no point to put the presser bolt of the 3 jaw puller. The 50mm wide stator and mags make this motor a real snapping turtle. Welding gloves, a vice, and brute force is how I separated the stator and rotor of my old, but the long axle and rim flange enabled it. With no rim flange there's no way to brute force it out this time. I'll share whatever I come up with, since it will be either slick or entertainingly crude. I need to make it repeatable since I have the extra stator that I'll mod for high Kv operation only and explore high power.

My controller supplier is already working on a 150A150V programmable controller solution for me, but he was whining about a regen cutoff at 147V last time we talked. We need someone to go visit Lebowski with a high power ebike, so we can get his talent focused on higher power.

John

[Harold in CR]

My controller supplier is already working on a 150A150V programmable controller solution for me, but he was whining about a regen cutoff at 147V last time we talked.

To quote ole Fred G Sanford, ARE YOU CRAZY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I may have to get out the old racing suit !!!!!!!!!!!

[Kin]

With the etek, I was hoping for 5-9kw, but as this is lighter than the 22.8lbs+gearing(10lbs?) or so of the Etek, I'd be looking to see how your attempts at 5-6kw work. It also helps that you've been testing a lot of these more affordable high power controllers. If you manage to not burn out 8kw, that's amazing. Sideshuffling on all the ideas I have on paper, since there's no required goal except a sweet custom tadpole. I'd have to reword some of my ideas because if I run a small wheel in the rear (simplifying gearing instead of a middrive; hopefully increasing the weight savings of the etek) then I would have to compensate the frame design so it's still lifted the same way.

Your 150v150a controller is....O.O, how many 4115?

Have you been able to figure out how much amperage the internal switch can tolerate? I suppose this switch is a reason why the higher voltage solution might be amiable, even if <100v with 4110s is usually sweeter (until you just can't manage the amperage)*. *This is my first time at those power levels; I'm not speaking from experience; just the general conversation on that controller page.

[zombiess]

Your 150v150a controller is....O.O, how many 4115?

Arlo1 and I might have a solution that is 150V 150A capable (continuous rating if we can get the heat sinking worked out) with just 6 FETs. The max voltage of them is 200V and 230A for a short burst (package limits them to 160A continuous up to 125C case temp ). It's a work in progress but the FETs seem like they are up to the task and no it's not data sheet koolaid. TO-220 FETs just aren't that good for high power, TO-247's and TO-264's seem to be where the fun is at.

*edit* sorry John, just realized this is your for sale thread, didn't mean to go off topic.

[hydro-one]

Arlo1 and I might have a solution that is 150V 150A capable with just 6 FETs. It's a work in progress but the FETs seem like they are up to the task and no it's not data sheet koolaid

spill it!!!

[John in CR]

I've been running 5-6 with a stock motor for 6 months. Ventilated I know it will take more because the contacts and wiring for the switching will have a fresh cool air flow. Then an easy route to higher power in a mid-drive rig is simply to go to higher voltage. Unlike common hubbie designs which are limited to about 1krpm where iron losses start hitting them hard, this motor can handle much higher voltages than the 74V nominal I've been running. That's because the operating frequency is so much lower with this motor due to having a slot/pole count less than half of that in typical hubbies. That alone guarantees the motor will be fine at double the rpm. The far better and thinner laminations adds to the advantage in this regard. This indicates the motor will be fine wrt iron losses well past 2krpm.

Ventilation is warranted since to the smaller surface area of the smaller motor means less ability to dissipate heat, and higher power means more heat to dissipate despite maintaining good efficiency. As a mid-drive, shielding can easily prevent debris from entering the motor, so the only compromise of ventilating is a bit more sound, which I've seen with every ventilated motor. A good passive ventilation design will be very effective due to the higher rpm of this motor, and I can help in that regard. Please don't do a "holes in a pizza pan" ventilation approach with this motor. While we're on the subject of cooling, do not put oil inside this motor, because it will ruin the high/low speed switching.

The real outstanding question is what kind of current it will handle after modding for very high power use at the high Kv setting after gutting the switching and installing 8 gauge phase wires. That question really is were does saturation start. Hubmonster is munching 420A/550A and I felt the performance increase of the last 40A/50A increase, so it can't be too far into saturation if it's even reached it. That's with a lot less iron per tooth than the MiniMonster. The other side of the coin is that I don't know the turn count or how estimate it based on Kv since the motor is so different from other hubbies. That means I can only find the real limits through experimentation, since I don't know how to do so thru computation.

John

[John in CR]

Your 150v150a controller is....O.O, how many 4115?

Arlo1 and I might have a solution that is 150V 150A capable (continuous rating if we can get the heat sinking worked out) with just 6 FETs. The max voltage of them is 200V and 230A for a short burst (package limits them to 160A continuous up to 125C case temp ). It's a work in progress but the FETs seem like they are up to the task and no it's not data sheet koolaid. TO-220 FETs just aren't that good for high power, TO-247's and TO-264's seem to be where the fun is at.

*edit* sorry John, just realized this is your for sale thread, didn't mean to go off topic.

My threads are always open to good news like that, especially in a thread about my hubbie that can handle those high voltages without iron losses running wild.

John

[Arlo1]

The fets are IXFK230N20T see my power stage thread. I have what I believe is the best layout especially when looking to run a few fets in parallel. What I would like to do is offer the layout of the power stage with 6-36 fets for a fair price (basicly my cost) then have zombies make the driver boards and use some bodies board layout with lebowski's programing on the main chip. This should be a endless sphere team effort for a cost effective DIY controller that kicks ass. We can also offer a 80v (20s lipo) controller with the 100v version of the ixys fets for those who want to play it safer. I am 100% excited for this. If you de-rate the fet number in comparison to a 4110 I think the number is still ~2.5-3.5x as much power and these fets have WAY better cooling. The layout Im planning can have a liquid cooled heat sync or anything you want mounted on the outer part of the case to pull heat away!
Zombies has been working on an awesome board for the power-stage as well but I really fell high power mosfets don't belong on fiberglass circuit boards and I plan to use better materials to soak the heat away from the fet at the body as fast as possible!

[John in CR]

Sounds awesome Arlo....Sine wave controller, high power, and high voltage. Count me in for at least 3 as soon as you guys say it's ready. I have one motor that will need 2 of them by itself, and of course I'll want to explore the max potential of the MiniMonster too.

One question. If we get one that's high voltage capable, can it still be run at 20s without issue without the high voltage capability adding too much cost?

John

[Bluefang]

A quick question, looking at the video etc it talks about using series to parallel switching to get the RPM change, is there anyway to change the motor to Delta? I am asking because i don't really want to run 150V worth of batteries to get the 20kw out of the motor and i was hoping that i could mod it to run on 18s or even better 12s. As i would love to use it on go-karts so i would need to keep it simple. 30S way to many wires to pay attention too

Ie is the large center node of the wye connection accessible or is it bunched into the windings? Or can you get higher KV version of the motor?

[John in CR]

It may already be in delta. I won't know definitively until I gut the switching from my old stator, but yes you can get to the switching wiring. There's no way the motor will go to extreme power at low voltage though, because it won't handle that kind of current. It would be interesting to take the motor out to it's absolute limits though for use on a cart or ebike racing, and you'd want high voltage anyway to get the higher rpm for better cooling. Instead of ducted fans in the drum cover, I'd probably opt for making a new AL cover that is a true centrifugal fan that can pull enough pressure to suck massive amounts of air through the motor. I'd have to run the numbers though, since the ducted fan approach would create positive pressure in the motor instead of negative, and air will cool better at high pressure. It's not only about flow volume and turbulence. A pressure differential could make a significant difference in cooling. I'd have to study up though, since a change in the air pressure would change the air temp too and affect the delta t.

John

[hydro-one]

Im feverishly awaiting some progress on this build!!!!

[John in CR]

Im feverishly awaiting some progress on this build!!!!

Tell me you want to see, and I'll try to focus more in that direction. I'm doing lots of multi-tasking, and have so much going on I get pulled in many directions. eg 2 hotels want ebikes for rentals, and cheap Chinese ebikes won't work, nor will just strapping hubmotors on regular bikes. Plus they want solar charging stations for the bikes.

Other than low res with my digital camera, I don't have video capability, so action clips are pretty much out for now. On my mid-drive with this motor I need to weld the swingarm end of the shock mount, then I can assemble and strap on batteries, and she'll be ready to go as long as I don't end up with chain issues. In the name of expediency, spray paint on the bare metal parts and exposed duct tape for the batteries will have to do.

John

[hydro-one]

Yes .... I want to see, first of all...... 100-150v, keep the two speed winding, mid drive, 3:1 gearing?. If that works good then mabye some kinda air cooling? Duct tape is fine with me, I just want to see it alive!!

[John in CR]

Yes .... I want to see, first of all...... 100-150v, keep the two speed winding, mid drive, 3:1 gearing?. If that works good then mabye some kinda air cooling? Duct tape is fine with me, I just want to see it alive!!

I don't have a high voltage controller, but let me see how the motor behaves with no drum brake to heat up the shell and in a mid-drive geared to a top speed of 45mph. I wanted to gear for 40 for this trail bike, but couldn't find the right sprockets, but I've never had a 6kw peak power bike geared for nearly that low a speed, so it should be pretty high on fun quotient.

Maybe high voltage and it's associated higher peak power could work keeping the motor sealed, but I think it would require keeping the top speed down to something similar. That would really make the bike explode out of the low efficiency range much quicker. That's exactly why the 30kw pumping into Hubmonster on my SuperV results in no noticeable increase in motor temps.

If the goal is significantly higher speed keeping the motor sealed, then I'd say proceed with caution, because you'd be increasing the power and increasing the load.

John

[thedarlington]

are these motors exclusively for 100+ volt? if not id like to know speeds and watts at lower 48v or 36

[Kin]

are these motors exclusively for 100+ volt? if not id like to know speeds and watts at lower 48v or 36

Hey, to make an expedient response (since I get these updates) you can use this motor at 48v. There are two settings, 17rpm/v and 9rpm/v. So for 48v, you're going to have 816rpm/min and 432rpm/min. In a wheel with a full diameter of 20 inches, that's 20*3.14*816 = 51,244 inches/min. That's 48.5 miles per hour and 25.6 miles per hour when unloaded, 38.8 and 20.48 probably loaded. [Hey, these are actually still kind of high numbers; I'm not 100% certain the rated power would b. Is 20 inches too big of a wheel diameter, or did I mess up?).

I do not think you could use 48v and a 26 inch wheel, because the gearing would be too high of a speed for the lower power you'd be running.

The big talk about high voltage is because at higher voltages through a middrive this motor would be rather balling powerful, and possible to cool easily. However, it would be geared so effectively be a wheel diameter many times smaller than 20 inches. You probably could not be getting the 10kw that some other people are talking about, without going into higher voltage *and* gearing down (you can't just gear for 100mph and only use 40% throttle- that wont work- though sometimes I realize I really dont fully understand this business and should spend more time in the technical reference)



So, uh, I thought my reply would help, but maybe it just clutters ^_^ maybe John can give a better response. I hope I'm not just talking out of my ass.

GaH, because there are multiple ways to say things I realize my post might not be the best. The bottom line is you can definitely run a motor at a lower voltage, but it might not be the same system. You can't just plug this in a big wheel and run it at low voltage and high current. You can get away with using a medium size wheel and medium sized voltage. However, you won't be able to max out the performance in that setting.

[John in CR]

theDarlington et al,

Kin is correct, the motor can be run at any voltage. The controllers I have matched to go with it at tuned for 74-75V nominal, specifically 20s of batteries with 3.7V cells or 23s of LiFePo4. The discussion of over 100V was to point out how this motor's materials, construction, and design make it capable of handling high voltage, while other hubbies fall short due to heat issues. That's for mid-drive use where this motor has hidden potential that can be unleashed with some straight forward modifications.

In fact, in wheel I would discourage over 100V (hot off the charger) use without first discussing the specific application.

With the stock motor I have no problem saying no mods are necessary for battery packs 89V nominal or less, with controller battery side peak settings of 75A, or less using a wheel with an OD of 17" or less, hauling a gross load of 400lbs or less. You work out how to fit it on a bike, and you can expect long-term durability with speed and hill climbing ability no other available hubmotor can match at this power level, and none come close in efficiency.

If you want to estimate top speed with different voltages, under load on flat road with no you can reasonably expect 8rpm/volt in low and 14rpm/v in high.

I'm more than happy to discuss specific applications, because I want happy customers and zero motor failures. Let me know what you want from your build (speed, load, usage, etc) and I'll help you get there.

John

[cwah]

I want the lightweight version at 93% for my brommmpptooonn

[thedarlington]

nice man! any timeframe for when these will be good to go? i get the feeling ur hubs gonna become quite popular around the forum very soon, id personally be interested in 48v, any idea of what speeds you aim to reach for or are these more for torque since i read about a light version

[John in CR]

nice man! any timeframe for when these will be good to go? i get the feeling ur hubs gonna become quite popular around the forum very soon, id personally be interested in 48v, any idea of what speeds you aim to reach for or are these more for torque since i read about a light version

At 48V in a scooter wheel you're looking at a max speed in the low 30's mph in high, and below 20mph in low. I need to understand your application to give you a recommendation of whether the motor is right for you. Personally I think it's capability is wasted below 60V nominal, and a lower power motor may make more sense. See my next post regarding my mid-drive bike. I'm not gearing for high speed, so it's gonna pull like a tank and climb to the limits of traction.

John