ChevyAnnouncesNewBolt200MileRangeEV-about $30k(VoltKiller?)

MitchJi

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Hi,

What will the Volt do to already slow Volt sales, and to Volt resale value?

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2015/01/12/3610461/gm-chevy-aim-at-tesla-with-new-bolt/
Watch out Tesla, General Motors has you in its crosshairs. On Monday, Chevrolet, a division of GM, revealed plans to launch the $30,000 Bolt, a car that the company intends to directly compete with Tesla’s forthcoming third vehicle, the Model III, which will have a similar price tag and a similar range of slightly over 200 miles-per-charge.

GM is showing a concept version of the Bolt this week at the Detroit auto show, where the company is also announcing an updated Volt, the company’s flagship hybrid vehicle. The redesigned Volt will be able to travel up to 50 miles on electric power alone, an increase of 12 miles over the previous model, and over 1,000 miles on average without filling up on gas.

GM and Chevy have been pursuing electric vehicles for several decades and the Bolt is an indication that the company is prepared to double-down on this wager even as Volt sales struggle and gas prices plunge. As the Wall Street Journal notes, the Bolt is the biggest risk yet taken by GM’s new Chief Executive Mary Barra, who took over around a year ago. She originally approved its design during her former post as product chief.

“The Bolt EV concept demonstrates General Motors’ commitment to electrification and the capabilities of our advanced EV technology,” said Barra in a statement. “Chevrolet believes electrification is a pillar of future transportation and needs to be affordable for a wider segment of customers.”
Barra also said that the Bolt is designed for “attainability, not exclusivity.” It is clear that GM wants the Bolt to be appealing beyond what’s under the hood. As Ed Welburn, vice president of GM Global Design, said: “form and function have never meshed so well together.”
The Bolt will have a 10-inch dashboard touchscreen, the option of using a smartphone as a key, integrated ride-sharing management, and the ability to self-park: using a phone App, the Bolt will be able to park itself once the driver is out of the car and then return to the driver’s location later all by itself.
2015 Chevrolet Bolt EV Interior
CREDIT: COURTESY OF GENERAL MOTORS
Even with the extended 200-mile range — intended to reassure drivers that they won’t end up stranded — sleek hatchback look, and impressive gadgetry, GM has its work cut out for it competing with Tesla. Owned by billionaire inventor Elon Musk, Tesla is a consumer favorite, known for making big headlines and even bigger pronouncements. Late last year the company secured a spot in Nevada to build its $5 billion lithium-ion battery gigafactory. In the last year, GM’s shares have fallen 14 percent while Tesla’s have climbed 48 percent.
Tesla is not the only competitor. While less than 90,000 Chevy Volts have sold since the vehicle went on sale in 2010 — and only 1,500 were delivered in December — Nissan’s fully electric car, the Leaf, just broke an electric plug-in sales record with 30,200 sold in the U.S. in 2014. The Leaf gets about 84 miles on a charge.
With the global car market in the tens of millions per year, the success of one electric vehicle far from negates the chances of another. As EV infrastructure and charging stations become more common, prices drop, and technology continues to improve, these automakers hope the market will finally really open up to them.
“We’re in this for the long haul,” Barra recently said while discussing the impact of cheaper gas prices on electric vehicles. “Over the long-term it doesn’t change our strategy at all.”
 
lol...

200 miles really? :|

Hey guys.. not to be too pessimistic but just think about this:

It take a 16.5kWh battery for the Volt to do 40 miles. Now they announce it to do 5 time more! ( 200 miles)

That would mean about 5 x 16.5kWh = 82.5kWh!!

Hey.. that’s about the same battery energy as the Tesla S P85.. lol :shock:

How they can produce a 82.5kWh battery for a car under 35000$ ?? :roll:

Let assume the car cost half of that and the battery cost the other half.

This would mean 82.5kWh at 17500$

..ok.. now that’s 212$ per kWh … lol

That’s the price the new TESLA factory plan to achieve now how GM will make these cheap battery??


Doc
 
Hi Doc,
Doctorbass said:
lol...

200 miles really? :|

It take a 16.5kWh battery for the Volt to do 40 miles. Now they announce it to do 5 time more! ( 200 miles)

That would mean about 5 x 16.5kWh = 82.5kWh!!

Hey.. that’s about the same battery energy as the Tesla S P85.. lol :shock:

How they can produce a 82.5kWh battery for a car under 35000$ ?? :roll:

Let assume the car cost half of that and the battery cost the other half.

This would mean 82.5kWh at 17500$

..ok.. now that’s 212$ per kWh … lol

Doc
You think that GM can't come up with a ballpark price estimate for an EV? I don't have much faith in GM but you are assuming an epic level of incompetence on their part :lol:!

Cheaper batteries and a lighter car. Tesla estimates their Model III will require a 48kwh battery. You think that GM requires 82.5kWh to deliver the same range (epic level of incompetence)?

Also:
Chevy Bolt to sell in low $30,000s, after government incentives, and travel up to 200 miles on battery charge
 
Hi,

View attachment 2
Bolt-001GC.jpg
Bolt-003GC.jpg

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-0113-chevrolet-volt-bolt-20150112-story.html
General Motors on Monday unveiled its battery-powered Chevrolet Bolt, challenging Tesla in the race to produce an affordable electric car.

The Bolt concept car made its debut at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, alongside a redesigned 2016 Volt, the second generation of Chevrolet's pioneering plug-in hybrid.

The all-electric Bolt boasts a groundbreaking combination of low price and long driving range. It will sell in the low $30,000s, after government incentives, and travel up to 200 miles on a battery charge, Mark Reuss, GM's executive vice president for global product development, said in an interview with The Times.

"The Bolt breaks the barrier on range anxiety," Reuss said.
 
Doctorbass said:
lol...

200 miles really? :|

Hey guys.. not to be too pessimistic but just think about this:

It take a 16.5kWh battery for the Volt to do 40 miles. Now they announce it to do 5 time more! ( 200 miles)

That would mean about 5 x 16.5kWh = 82.5kWh!!

Hey.. that’s about the same battery energy as the Tesla S P85.. lol :shock:

How they can produce a 82.5kWh battery for a car under 35000$ ?? :roll:

Let assume the car cost half of that and the battery cost the other half.

This would mean 82.5kWh at 17500$

..ok.. now that’s 212$ per kWh … lol

That’s the price the new TESLA factory plan to achieve now how GM will make these cheap battery??


Doc


Original Volt only permitted access to ~8kWh of the 16kWh pack. They do this because it's much easier to get >10k cycles if you only do 50% DOD cycles.

With new cells that are more lifecycle friendly towards deeper discharge, as well as a larger pack size to keep the motor power draw C-rates down, the pack won't need to be quite as large as your estimate, perhaps ~50ish kWh seems like it would be possible to get an EPA rated 200 miles.
 
The Spark does 82 EPA miles on a 21kWh pack. It does ~98 miles at 62 mph.

The Spark has highest combined city/highway efficiency of any car out there

The Chevy motor is actually a great design with 400 foot pounds of torque

I'm almost sure they will use this motor and gear it for max efficiency at 65mph

I bet the car will be rated 200 miles of range at 65mph, not 200 miles EPA, with a 45kWh pack, so than means about 4000 bucks raw cell cost

The EPA rating sucks anyway because they keep changing their formula every year

The range at 65mph is simple for anyone to understand and I think the best metric. We know it will go more than 200 miles if you driver 35mph or whatever. A lighter car will have better stop and go efficiency but who cares. Stop and go means you are in a city and near a charger. What matters is being able to make the jump between cities and chargers on the highway.

Remember the EV1 with NiMH batteries went 140 miles at 65mph back in 1999. Don't thank GM. Remember they sold the Ovonics NiMH patents to FCUKING CHEVRON! They could have made this car years ago. Thank Tesla. Now they have no choice. Compete or die. I will never buy a GM. EVER!


----
1994, General Motors acquired a controlling interest in Ovonics's battery development and manufacture, including patents controlling the manufacture of large NiMH batteries. The original intent of the equity alliance was to develop NiMH batteries for GM's EV1 BEV. Sales of GM-Ovonics batteries were later taken over by GM manager and critic of CARB John Williams, leading Ovshinsky to wonder whether his decision to sell to GM had been naive.[5] The EV1 program was shut down by GM before the new NiMH battery could be commercialized, despite field tests that indicated the Ovonics battery extended the EV1's range to over 150 miles.[5]

Chevron and Cobasys[edit]

By 2001, the Ovonics technology was owned by the oil company Chevron.
In 2001, oil company Texaco purchased General Motors' share in GM Ovonics. Texaco was itself acquired by rival Chevron several months later. The same year, Ovonics filed a patent infringement suit against Toyota's battery supplier, Panasonic, that ultimately succeeded in restricting the use of its large format NiMH batteries to certain transportation uses.
 
liveforphysics said:
Doctorbass said:
lol...

200 miles really? :|

Hey guys.. not to be too pessimistic but just think about this:

It take a 16.5kWh battery for the Volt to do 40 miles. Now they announce it to do 5 time more! ( 200 miles)

That would mean about 5 x 16.5kWh = 82.5kWh!!

Hey.. that’s about the same battery energy as the Tesla S P85.. lol :shock:

How they can produce a 82.5kWh battery for a car under 35000$ ?? :roll:

Let assume the car cost half of that and the battery cost the other half.

This would mean 82.5kWh at 17500$

..ok.. now that’s 212$ per kWh … lol

That’s the price the new TESLA factory plan to achieve now how GM will make these cheap battery??


Doc


Original Volt only permitted access to ~8kWh of the 16kWh pack. They do this because it's much easier to get >10k cycles if you only do 50% DOD cycles.

With new cells that are more lifecycle friendly towards deeper discharge, as well as a larger pack size to keep the motor power draw C-rates down, the pack won't need to be quite as large as your estimate, perhaps ~50ish kWh seems like it would be possible to get an EPA rated 200 miles.

Yeah probably.. well we just hope it will Luke! :lol: I've read that the estimated price for canadian will be 45k$

What surprize me alot if that my Volt battery temp is often to around 8-9 degree C and it can still take 50-60 kW of regen ( 3-4C !!) and 110kW of power 6-7C !!.But what help is that it is used only in the magic 20-80 SOC range.

I wonder if they will still keep the NMC chemistry... i guess yes...



Doc
 
Of course they will use NMC. An NCA battery that lasted 20 years would be bad business

All GM components are designed for a 12 year vehicle life

After exhaustive study the conclusion is nmc voltage fade is impossible to stop and many researchers have moved on. On paper they look great with fantastic cycle life. The new LG cell will be 4.6v max with awesome energy density. The problem is calendar life, which is not a problem if you are GM or BMW or Nissan, and want to make cars disposable like your cell phone

Look how much research has gone into trying to solve the issue. After frocking around for 10 years with ncm the conclusion is the voltage fade is unstoppable based on first principles analysis, which the original researchers concluded 9 years ago! Who is funding NCM research? An oil company is the main sponsor of the annual conference. GM uses the energy department as their personal R&D team.

Google site:energy.gov manganese "voltage fade"

Ask yourself why the federal labs are not researching NCA chem improvememts even though the military uses it (saft)

Classic diversion tactic. Send em down the wrong path. NCM is a dead end if you care about the long term

Farasis, which supplies Zero Motorcycles, is cycling 4.6v ncm/graphite cells in the lab as we speak

Even if you believe whatever I will upgrade to a better battery anyway that is a dumb way to think

Meanwhile we have 20 year old nca saft cells in our satellites!!!

https://archive.org/details/PlannedObsolescenceDocumentary

While the Mn-rich cathode has the potential of delivering very high specific energy, several key drawbacks need to be mitigated to make it a long-life, low-cost cathode. Various approaches we have studied show that there are considerable opportunities to improve the cathode material properties. Extensive test data involving analytical studies have clearly established the usefulness of our approaches toward improving the performance and life of the cells. However, none of the methods we have investigated thus far was able to fully alleviate the key challenges of Mn dissolution, gassing and voltage sagging, which leads to poor life
 
Industry-led consortia have provided a funding conduit through which DOE has funded company R&D in vehicle energy storage, including:
- U.S. Advanced Battery Consortium (USABC), formed in 1991 to develop
electrochemical energy storage technologies that support commercialization of fuel
cell, hybrid, and electric vehicles; and
- U.S. Council for Automotive Research (USCAR), formed in 1992

----
In the fall of 1993, USCAR teamed together with the federal government under the Clinton administration and formed the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV). PNGV's goal was to improve national manufacturing competitiveness, implement technologies to increase the efficiency of conventional vehicles and develop technologies for a new class of vehicles with up to three times the fuel efficiency of a mid-size family sedan without sacrificing its performance, affordability, utility, safety and comfort. Each of the U.S. automakers created concept vehicles that achieved the fuel-efficiency mark, advancing new technologies as part of the process.

-----
Building on the success of PNGV, the program transitioned to FreedomCAR under the Bush administration in 2002 to put more emphasis on hydrogen and fuel cell research. In September 2003, FreedomCAR expanded to include five energy companies creating the FreedomCAR & Fuel Partnership.

The partners are: USCAR, the United States Department of Energy (DOE), BP America, Chevron Corporation, ConocoPhillips, Exxon Mobil Corporation and Shell Hydrogen LLC. In June 2008, two electric utility companies, DTE Energy and Southern California Edison, were added to the Partnership.

----
USABC is a consortium of the United States Council for Automotive Research (USCAR). Its mission is to develop electrochemical energy storage technologies that support commercialization of fuel cell, hybrid and electric vehicles. USABC has a cooperative agreement with the DOE for research and development of battery technologies---

USABC is proud to be a platinum sponsor of the Advanced Automotive Battery Conference

----
Note it was not until 2003 5 oil companies were allowed to join, and then months later

In 2003, Texaco Ovonics Battery Systems was restructured into Cobasys, a 50/50 joint venture between Chevron and Energy Conversion Devices (ECD) Ovonics
 
The twin goals of economy and distance appeared to be met in the Dahn-Argonne cathode. Dahn, working on contract with 3M and a team at Argonne filed competing patent applications for the NMC cathode in 2000.

“Fade appears to be a fundamental property of this material,” Tony Burrell, director of the battery department at Argonne, told the conference. “It is like being surprised that wood combusts with oxygen.” Burrell was saying that there was simply no way to avoid voltage fade, a natural feature of the second-generation cathode at high voltage, it unfortunately turned out.
But will NMC have a new day?

Dahn suggests that the Department of Energy and Argonne are making too big a deal of the issue. The problem is real, he says, but “there has been a sort of mental explosion that this is a disaster. Even with voltage fade, it doesn’t mean the material is useless. You just have to deal with it.”

Relax. Just deal with the fact nmc sucks in the long term. No big deal! I knew it all along! Get back to the lab and keep wasting your time.

-Dahn
 
I'm sure they can retail it for $30,000, or $3 if they want to. It's just a case of subsidising it enough to try and ruin the plans of your competitors.

The question of whether it can be economically sold for $30k is answerable by considering if a manufacturer sells a comparable size/spec ICE car at low volume for ~$20k. If so, then yes, it's feasible after they've swapped the engine for a motor and added ~$10k worth of battery/controller.

MitchJi said:
GM and Chevy have been pursuing electric vehicles for several decades

Err, have they?
 
Hi,
Doctorbass said:
How they can produce a 82.5kWh battery for a car under 35000$ ?? :roll:

..ok.. now that’s 212$ per kWh … lol

That’s the price the new TESLA factory plan to achieve now how GM will make these cheap battery??
svt/r&d said:
who knows what the battery tech will be in two years, it makes leaps every 3-6mo's and Gm is sitting on a wealth of of tech.
In the video interview that I posted a link to here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=65597&p=985957#p985957
includes the CEO of LG Chem (which provides EV batteries to GM for the Chevy Volt and Renault for its electric vehicles, as well as others), Prabhakar Patil; the founder and CEO of Sakti3, Ann Marie Sastry; and Brett Smith from the Center for Automotive Research.
The CEO of LG Chem said that they have delivered cells to OEM's for testing that will make it possible to sell cars for about $30k with a 200 mile range. He said that it will take until about 2017 for the OEM's to complete their own testing and development. In addition to needing much less than 82.5kWh they have roughly doubled the energy density of the cells. There are two costs associated with producing cells, the manufacturing cost and the cost of materials. If you double the energy density the cost per ah is roughly half and the amount of materials required (not necessarily the price) per ah is roughly half.

The fingers said:
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/01/12/2016-chevy-volt-detroit-official/
Looks like the Volt isn't ready to roll over and play dead yet! :mrgreen:
Yes, but the Leaf (much smaller range, roughly similar price) is currently outselling the Volt by a large margin. What do you think a $30k GM car with a 200 mile range will do to Volt sales. Of course GM could increase the electric range of the Volt to about 80-100 miles with the new battery technology.
 
They could sidle into a previously untapped market for gender-specific vehicles targeting younger trendsetting drivers with the unveiling of two new models: the Tada Boy and the Tada Girl. :lol:
 
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